Head Stock Run Out, Delta 46-460

[Jim Gallant]

Just got my first lathe... is there a way to correct head stock run out on the 46-460. otherwise a very well made piece of equipment

 

[john lucas]

I haven't see runout on the machines I've turned on. Mine just came in and I'll pick it up Tuesday so I'll have one to play with.

 

[Odie]

Do you mean the spindle is not running true radially, or do you mean the spindle and tailstock don't align perfectly?

ooc

 

[Jim Gallant]

The spindle circles the tail stock.... Is there a simple way to check the head stock?

 

[Odie]

The spindle circles the tail stock.... Is there a simple way to check the head stock?

If the spindle is not running true, ie: runout on the spindle itself, then it's likely that the spindle shaft is bent, or a machining problem with the manufacture of the shaft. Machining the threads off center to the rest of the shaft would do it.

If it were an alignment problem with the headstock, then the spindle would still not have runout. It would be running true, but not in alignment with the tailstock. Usually this is remedied by aligning the tailstock to match, but aligning the headstock would do it, too.

If I'm understanding correctly, there is wobble in the spindle itself.......correct? If so, then all of the above would apply.....

How did you determine the "spindle circles the tailstock"? A dial indicator is the most efficient way to check, but you may be able to see the wobble with your eye. If the latter, you definitely have a problem with the straightness, or concentricity of the spindle. A couple thousandths of deviation would be acceptable.

ooc

 

[Odie]

The spindle circles the tail stock.... Is there a simple way to check the head stock?

Another thought here........

If you determined the "spindle circles the tailstock" with some sort of attachment mounted to the spindle.......chuck, faceplate, Morse taper device, etc.......then it could be the problem is with the attachment itself, and not your spindle, or headstock alignment. If that attachment runs true, and uses the threads of the spindle, then the concentricity/machining of the threads would be in question. If the attachment runs true and uses the Morse taper to mount, then the concentricity/machining of the Morse taper would be in question. If both, then I suspect straightness of the spindle shaft first as the most likely, but both the threads and Morse taper machining could be a possibility.

Suggestion.....check the wobble using multiple attachments that use both the threads and the Morse taper to mount......

Question: What is it specifically that leads you to believe the alignment of the headstock is the source of your problem?

ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

Runout in milling machines can consist of either coning motion (angular misalignment or radial offset of the cutting tool. On woodturning lathes the most likely thing that you will see with a drive center is coning. Sometimes the drive center is the problem so be sure to rule that out by trying several drive centers or testing the one you have in another lathe.

The other possibility is much more serious. Has the drive center ever slipped in this lathe or any other lathe? If it has, then it is a dead certainty that there is galling damage to both the drive center and to the spindle bore. Galling produces rough concentric burrs that keep the drive center and spindle bore from mating perfectly to get a strong metal-to-metal bond and the drive center will no longer run true. Carefully examine the entire tapered surface of the drive center for evidence of galling or any other damage. If you find any rings caused by galling, throw the drive center away. It can't be adequately repaired short of machining a new tapered surface. The surface should be perfectly smooth and polished without any blemishes. Also examine the spindle bore both with a bright flashlight and by feeling with your little finger. Fortunately spindle bores can be repaired using a MT hand reamer and a Spin_L_Mate polishing tool if you find that it has galling, but do it soon. Once damage has occurred, things will only get worse and will spread to your other drive spurs like an STD.

 

[Odie]

^^^^^ This is a good call by Bill, here ^^^^^

Be sure to check for the galling, as well. This possibility also fits the parameters of what we know, so far.......

If there is no galling, be sure to check the runout using multiple attachments that use both the threads and Morse taper of the spindle.

ooc

 

[john lucas]

The first course of action as mentioned above is to clean all the surfaces. Dirt on the back of a chuck will not let it sit against back flange and it may not run true. dirt on or in the morse taper will not let the drive center sit true.
One quick but not real accurate way of checking runout of the spindle is to clamp something to your tool rest that just barely touches the inside of the morse taper. I just use a sharp pencil. rotate the spindle. If it's not running true you will see a gap appear, or if there already is a gap it will change size. This is a pretty gross indicator. If it's off bad enough to see a noticeable gap then you've got serious problems. Then you can find someone with a dial indicator and run the same test to have known dimensions to bring to the attention of Delta.
Since I haven't picked up my lathe yet and can't look at how the bearings are installed this question is a wild guess. On the Jet lathes the tension on the bearings is set by the tension on the handwheel. If the handwheel is loose the bearings don't seat properly and you get wobble on the headstock spindle. I'll know more tomorrow since I pick up the lathe today.

 

[John Fabre]

Jim,

If the Delta is brand new, take or ship it back before the 90 day period.

 

[Jim Gallant]

Thanks for all the advice. I did return it...with no problem. the replacement is running true!! Thanks again

 

[Bill Boehme]

My Delta 46-715 that I bought in 2004 had a warped spindle. Delta said that I could either exchange it or they would send me another spindle. I opted for the replacement spindle since it was much less work than carrying the lathe back to the store. The new spindle ran perfectly true (the old one really shook if a chuck was mounted on it).

 

[Odie]

If there were any quality control at all, you would think something like the trueness of the spindle would be at the highest importance for a lathe. I guess a lot of manufacturing these days depends on pushing things through, and let the end user be the "final inspection". :mad:

.....Ran a quick search yesterday, and came up with other Delta lathe owners who had issues with the quality of the spindle, as well........

I can remember a time when the name Delta actually meant something, but they are now competing for the mid-range sales.......subject to the same methods the other manufacturers rely on for the volume sales market. It took a lot of "blood, sweat, and tears", and a commitment to quality, that established the reputation Delta earned a long time ago......but it's no longer the company it once was.

I guess if a turner wants to save money, he takes his chances on what he gets. He could be getting a good lathe, but I'm a firm believer in getting a lathe from the more established manufacturers......the manufacturers that earn their reputation from the current turners who take quality seriously. Pay the money, and get something built with a little sense of pride......rather than getting one that allows a quality build to take a back seat to the profit motive.


ooc

 

[Richard Coers]

Odie, I totally agree with your comments. I bought a Grizzly bandsaw that had wheels so far out of balance, the machine would walk items off the table. Those cast wheels had balance holes all over the place on the back side, and had 4 steel weights added in another quadrant on the same wheel. Their "great" customer service was happy to send me parts, and let me rebuild a new machine. I sent it back after replacing one wheel and finding the same imbalance in the top wheel. Why should we rebuild new machines? If everyone sends back the machines, do you think they will get the message? I imagine not.

 

[Bill Luce]

If there were any quality control at all, you would think something like the trueness of the spindle would be at the highest importance for a lathe. I guess a lot of manufacturing these days depends on pushing things through, and let the end user be the "final inspection". :mad:

.....Ran a quick search yesterday, and came up with other Delta lathe owners who had issues with the quality of the spindle, as well........

I can remember a time when the name Delta actually meant something, but they are now competing for the mid-range sales.......subject to the same methods the other manufacturers rely on for the volume sales market. It took a lot of "blood, sweat, and tears", and a commitment to quality, that established the reputation Delta earned a long time ago......but it's no longer the company it once was.

I guess if a turner wants to save money, he takes his chances on what he gets. He could be getting a good lathe, but I'm a firm believer in getting a lathe from the more established manufacturers......the manufacturers that earn their reputation from the current turners who take quality seriously. Pay the money, and get something built with a little sense of pride......rather than getting one that allows a quality build to take a back seat to the profit motive.


ooc

I agree that with the competitive nature of business it is getting ever increasingly common to force qc on the consumer as their responsibility.

Esp at the lower pricepoint, but without rehashing, I am still waiting for many months for my first non defective spindle from a brand name co. So brand is no absolute guarantee.

Even big manufacturers are reallys struggling these days and many are forced to focus on consumer lines of tools made in China for cheap. Delta is no exception, and it would be interesting to know if how their very top "industrial" tools compare in quality to the older ones.

Brand itself is only a tiny bit helpful with predicting quality with consumer level tools. For example, both Husky and Stihl make some pro quality chainsaws that their reputation is based on to a large degree. But each actually sells many more cheap poorer quality consumer chainsaws (sometimes even in box stores) because that is where the bucks are.

That is where it still comes down to the consumer to sort out the real issues of any tool purchase. This is one area where the web is an absolute godsend both in digging out info on tools, as well as figuring out what sorts of problems folks are having with any specific tool either to avoid it or to fix your own.

Long live the web and forums! Biggest problem with forums is that they are tough on our budgets. For example I used to be be involved in a worldwide and very active chainsaw forum (arboristsite.com) and it was generally acknowledged that reading that forum regularly resulted in CAD. Chainsaw acquisition disorder. Typically the number of chainsaws a person had after a year or two of reading that forum doubled. In my case it tripled, but that is another thread.....

 

[john lucas]

To give Delta some credit. When they were designing this lathe they came around to several of the clubs with a sort of rough prototype and asked what we would like to see on a midi lathe and what changes we would make to that one. I think they did a pretty good job. Now of course the quality control is a different beast. I'll be unpacking mine tonight and will report back if there are any problems.
I've turned on at least 4 of these things they all run well.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Odie,

I agree with your point of view. Pretty much everything you buy is made "offshore" (a gentle euphemism for any backwater third world entity) these days. And QC amounts to nothing more than a sign hanging above the door.

When I bought my Unisaw about 20 years ago, Delta still made some industrial machinery such s the industrial version of the Unisaw with a three-phase motor and LVC safety module. I think that it has been a very long time since they made any stationary machines for industrial use.

 

[waltben]

As I've posted on other threads, I was one of those lucky to do pre-production testing, and have had four of this model and none have had any issues with run out. Delta had little to no choice other than to outsource (to you-know-where) the manufacturing of this lathe, but to give them credit, they put a five year warranty on it. They still stand behind their products, even if they have to make them elsewhere - since we're so $$$$ conscious.

 

[Odie]

I agree that with the competitive nature of business it is getting ever increasingly common to force qc on the consumer as their responsibility.

Esp at the lower pricepoint, but without rehashing, I am still waiting for many months for my first non defective spindle from a brand name co. So brand is no absolute guarantee.

Hi Bill.......We are all seeing the effects of the price wars on the lower/mid range end machinery products. Yes, of course you are correct that name brand is no guarantee, but the odds of getting what you pay for increases. 😀

How about telling us about your defective spindle from a brand name company? Here and now is the time to name names, and explain about the problems you are having.......😀

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is more than a little bit curious about your experience with this........

thanks


ooc

 

[john lucas]

I unpacked my Delta 46-460 tonight. I put the dial indicator on it It is absolutely dead on. The needle doesn't even move. The tailstock lines up exactly with the headstock. Everything seems to lock down solidly. All speeds work.
The only thing I don't like is the knock out bar. There are holes in the spindle flange just behind the threads. I assume they are there to allow you to use a bar to lock the spindle so you can use the wrench to remove the faceplate. However knock out bar does not fit in this hole. It's close the holes could have been enlarged or the knock out bar reduced.
The faceplate has allen screws to lock it on the spindle which has a reduced area behind the threads. Since the lathe goes in reverse this is handy.
So far I'm happy. I will have a slight problem. I was originally planning on putting wheels underneath to make it easily portable. However this will make it a little too tall. The factory stand isn't very adjustable. so now I'm rethinking. I may use some angle iron and hinge to make the wheels easily flip out of the way and it will sit on it's original feet which will make it more solid.
All in all so far I'm really pleased. I will turn some things on it this weekend.

 

[john wallace]

The only thing I don't like is the knock out bar. There are holes in the spindle flange just behind the threads. I assume they are there to allow you to use a bar to lock the spindle so you can use the wrench to remove the faceplate. However knock out bar does not fit in this hole. It's close the holes could have been enlarged or the knock out bar reduced.

My Delta knock out bar fit the holes. Even though it fits I use my own KO bar that I made for my old lathe because it's a bit longer and a lot tougher.

 

[Bill Hutfles]

My Delta knock out bar fit the holes. Even though it fits I use my own KO bar that I made for my old lathe because it's a bit longer and a lot tougher.

I just got a new Delta 46-455 and am really happy with it but the knockout rod which I micked at .326 is a couple thousands larger than either spindle shaft flange hole which you use to remove the faceplate. I called the 800# in the warranty section of the owners manual and Technical Support said they couldn't send me replacement parts because Delta sold 2 years ago. He said if I waited till after July 1, and called a different 800#, maybe those people could help me. I asked who I would be calling and he said Delta. I asked who I was talking to and he said Stanley Black and Decker. He said you understand your lathe was discontinued 2 yesrs ago. The manual says it's got a 5 yr warranty. Anybody else having warranty issues and what's the significance of July 1?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Stanley B&D spun of Delta to a group known as Delta PEC (Power Equipment Corporation) in 2011. The new Delta had to vacate the Porter Cable facility in Jackson, Tennessee so they moved the business to Anderson, SC.

ServiceNet, the B&D parts business has been providing the parts for Delta and the Delta web site still says that ServiceNet provides replacement parts. However, if you click on the link, a new page pops up that says go to www.deltamachinery.com for replacement parts, so right now you will just be chasing your tail if you want parts. I suppose that the official date of breaking all ties with ServiceNet and Delta providing replacement parts is July 1, at least in theory.