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Has anyone had PM 3520B noise interference issues

Joined
Sep 7, 2012
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Location
Mesquite Tx
My new PM3520B lathe is a great upgrade. I have been using it for about a week. One issue that is bothering SWMBO is that when I fire it up, both the U-Verse and computer signal craps out. When I turn off he power breaker to the lathe, the signal to both returns. It at times behaives itself,but about half he time its DOA.

Is this a common issue?

I hate to tell her that she needs to get cable.

If you get my drift. Otherwise i may have to relocate the lathe, like to a different house
 
Some inverters are better than others. The Toshiba Tosvert inverter on my Robust is fairly clean when it comes to radiated and conducted emissions. I only get interference if I have a radio closer than three feet to the lathe.
 
I have a similar issue with my DVR-XP. When it is on (does not have to be running) it interferes with AM radio for about 1000 feet. It sounds like a rapid fog horn blowing. If I turn power off, the interference stops. From what I can find out it has something to do with the circut board and is very common on many machines.

The fix is not cheap nor certain. Me and my neighbors have accepted to live with it.
dick
 
My reply, for those not on Woodnet

There are several "modes" of interference. Here is a simple test to help determine what can be done.

First, does it interfere with a battery or car radio. If so the problem is the RF the lathe is generating is being broadcast. If so the ONLY way to stop the RFI is shield the lathe. Chokes, beads, etc will NOT stop this.

If a battery powered radio is not effected, then the RF is being carried on the power lines, and beads, chokes, etc can be used to reduce or eliminate the RFI/EMI

I can tell you that every electronic controlled lathe (Nova, Jet, Powermatic, etc) I have looked at generates direct broadcast RFI. It is my opinion that not one of these lathes would pass the tests required under FCC part 15 (Consumer products). The reason the FCC doesn't enforce any standard on electronic lathes is they do NOT consider them consumer items (despite the fact that something like 99% of then are in the hands of "consumer/hobbyists").

By way of background, I hold an Amateur (Ham) Extra Class license (the highest), I have also held both Commercial and Military licenses. I have a BS in Electronic Engineering and took every class my college offered in Communications and Radios (all of these were from D.K. Weaver, the inventor if the 3rd method of generating SSB, the one actually used in most radios today).
I also spent a lot of my 30+ year career worried about RFI/EMI issues.

FYI, it is also my opinion that any woodturner using a pacemaker, that is not rated for use in an Industrial environment is running the risk that an electronic controlled lathe could interfere with pacemaker.

Ralph
 
Ralph, I don't know if all iterations of the Robust lathe are as good as mine, but it seems to produce minimal interference. I used a portable AM/FM receiver that can either be plugged in or operated on batteries to evaluate interference for both conducted and radiated emissions from my Robust American Beauty. FM showed no noticeable interference which isn't too surprising since FM reception is fairly immune because it is in the VHF portion of the spectrum, but also because of FM's relative insensitivity to noise depending on the demodulation method. On the AM broadcast band, I could place the radio as close as three feet away without objectionable interference if I could orient the receiver for best signal from the broadcast station and at the same time orient it so that the lathe was off the end of the internal loop antenna. Generally speaking, the noise was very low, but still audible at about six feet away. At approximately 12 feet away there was essentially no noticeable noise when tuned into a station. Some, if not most, of the noise was being emitted from the power cord of the lathe which implies that an AC line reactor with the proper reactance for this lathe might be useful although the primary purpose of the input side line reactors on inverters is not EMI related, but to benefit the inverter by improving power quality and minimizing supply fluctuations.

There is a loophole in meeting interference requirement because inverter manufacturers as well as makers of other types of sub-assemblies only have limited requirements which involves a specific test configuration. System wide compatibility is the responsibility of the system integrator although manufacturers and integrators do work together to address these issues. I am not an authority on the scope of Part 15, but if memory serves me correctly , I seem to recall that Part 17 (or perhaps some other part) that covers interference for equipment used in manufacturing environments. The extent of any requirement is not something that I am knowledgeable about. My expertise is in the military and NASA electronics area. Although I was primarily a design engineer, I occasionally had the responsibility of conducting and/or overseeing qualification testing for equipment where I was the principal design engineer. These test included EMI/EMC/EMP tests for conducted and emitted radiation as well as susceptibility testing. These test, as you might suspect, are very rigorous and more thorough than requirements in the consumer market.

BTW, I am also a ham since June, 1967.
 
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Bill
Yup, FM demodulation makes it just about immune to anything short of simply so much energy that it swamps (jams) the demodulator.

I should point out that just about any RFI/EMI that is effecting an FM radio is either carried via the power-lines (thus power-line chokes should help). Well, unless it's due to poor design of the radio.

It might also be useful for people to know that any RFI/EMI issues they have with something that is NOT a receiver, say like an MP3 player, CD-Player, etc is almost certainly due to poor design of unit in question, and not considered a fault it the device that is generating the RFI/EMI

Sounds like the Robust produces less RFI/EMI then most, I have to admit the Nova DVR-XP we have is quite bad. The lathe has to be off to do any SSB (any band).

I don't believe you are talking about Part 17, since that is on Antennas. Part 18 is the section that regulates Industrial/Scientific/Medical equipment.

Back when I first moved where I know live, I could swing the beam over towards where I worked (about 1 mile away) and know if it was a work day or not. As the computer carriers would just about swamp the front end. That was, of course, before there were any regulations on computer RF emissions.
Today, well, all those computers (several dozen HP-2000's) are long gone to the scrap and the now couple of thousand computers that are there emit less RF, to the point where I really can't pick up strong signals any more.
 
UPDATE ON Problm

Talking to my wife today after doing internet searches she sai that every time she would come out when it froze, i was sanding and it was at a slow speed. So after dinner tonight I went out and fired the lathe up at a high speed (1200) Then i would wait for 10 seconds, and lower the speed by 200 rpm. I finally found after several speed lowering and speed ups hat at 200 rpm and LOWER, the TV/Computer signal would die. I tried it several times. The TV would die, i would turn the lathe off, wait until the TV restarted (1 minute or so) then restart the lathe and quickly sped it up. After several times, it was evident tonight at least, at 200 RPM or lower, the TV/computer dies. At 225 and above, its ok.

In using a line choke, are they sized for voltage, or just diameter of the power cord. Is it he cord from the wall, or the cord from the inverter into the motor?
 
Talking to my wife today after doing internet searches she sai that every time she would come out when it froze, i was sanding and it was at a slow speed. So after dinner tonight I went out and fired the lathe up at a high speed (1200) Then i would wait for 10 seconds, and lower the speed by 200 rpm. I finally found after several speed lowering and speed ups hat at 200 rpm and LOWER, the TV/Computer signal would die. I tried it several times. The TV would die, i would turn the lathe off, wait until the TV restarted (1 minute or so) then restart the lathe and quickly sped it up. After several times, it was evident tonight at least, at 200 RPM or lower, the TV/computer dies. At 225 and above, its ok.

You didn't say what lathe you have, but I will assume that you are using a Powermatic 3520 with a Delta inverter. At that slow speed, the "synthesized" three-phase power to the motor is probably around 5 Hz or less and is very "trashy" at such slow speeds. Part of the reason for such a trashy signal is that the inverter is trying to compute load torque by sensing motor current. Even under optimal circumstances motor current is a noisy parameter, but things get even worse when this noisy data is used to regulate speed by modifying an already noisy signal with more noise. Perhaps the only reason that it even works as well as it does is probably due to the mechanical inertia of the motor and drive train.

If you are interested, I may do a search for a drawing that shows what the waveform looks like from the inverter to the motor versus normal three phase sinusoidal power.

Back during the Cold War, the Soviets would have killed for such an effective broadband jammer to use against the VOA and BBC ... and now you can buy them for just a few hundred dollars to power your lathe.

In using a line choke, are they sized for voltage, or just diameter of the power cord. Is it he cord from the wall, or the cord from the inverter into the motor?

There are all sorts of permutations of power line filters with varying degree of effectiveness and as you might guess, the cheap ones probably won't satisfy your needs -- an expensive one may not either depending on circumstances.

Sizing the type of three-phase line reactors used with inverters is not a simple task. It is based on line impedance and typically sized at 5% impedance for approximately 35% reduction of total harmonic distortion.

Generally speaking load reactors between the inverter and motor are not used except in industrial environment where the distance separating the two is more than 100 feet, in which case they are needed to reduce what is known as δv/δt transients which can shorten the life of the motor and the inverter. These transients may also cause radiated interference. For our application where the distance between te inverter and the motor is just a few feet, this is not an issue although using them has been known to give "warm fuzzies" to the lathe owner.

Regarding your question about where to install a line choke, as far as I know, they are not the appropriate devices for suppressing interference from an inverter. However, the line and load reactors used with inverters do a reasonably good job of filtering conducted noise on the power line and fair job of reducing radiated interference. I would first install a line reactor and if necessary a load reactor. Seeing as these are industrial devices, they come with industrial strength price tags and it is possible that they may not satisfactorily solve your problem. From your description of problems that you are having, I get the impression that the interference is radiated rather than conducted. In that case, it may require some serious shielding to minimize the interference. A suitable NEMA equipment enclose for the inverter might be a good idea. The Robust AB lathe has a built-in enclosure for the inverter and while it is not a NEMA style enclosure, it seems to be close enough for all practical purposes. If you buy or make an enclosure, it needs to have adequate ventilation while still maintaining shielding. Beyond that, braided shielding on the leads from the inverter to the motor and possibly also to the external controls may be necessary. This type of shielding is normally grounded only at the source end and left floating at the other end. Hams sometimes use either aluminum foil or metal tape as a cheap alternative to braided shielding.

Even if the interference is conducted over the power line, chokes or filters on the power cord of affected devices seems to me to be marginally effective at best. The reason, as Ralph indicated, is probably because immunity from interference probably was never part of the equipment deign.

BTW, I found an image, while not exactly what I was looking for, illustrates what I was saying about the power to the motor being "trashy".

img003.GIF
 
Larry, I'm thinking that your issues are not just the RFI/EMI your lathe is producing at low RPMs. I'm thinking that the equipment you are having problems with is more sensitive to RFI/EMI then it might be.
If that is the case, this could be a difficult fix.

Your best solution might be shielding the lathe and choking the power-line.
 
Larry I just did some research on U-verse and RFI/EMI issues and it looks like there are a lot of complaints about this issue.
From some reading it appears that most of the issues are due to issues after the fiber-to-copper connection. I've seen several types of fixes, from replacing the copper and splitters, to using CAT-5 ether, all depending on how the system is actually setup (apparently there are several options)

So, have you gotten your provider involved? If not, I would have them do some troubleshooting.
 
... So, have you gotten your provider involved? If not, I would have them do some troubleshooting.

I would agree. It's might be their equipment that is at fault because one possibility is oxidation or corrosion where dissimilar metals come into contact especially when outdoor connections are involved. When that happens there can be degraded connection problems even if there is no EMI source involved. When there is a nearby radiator (radio frequency signal) even if it is perfectly clean, the corroded connection can behave somewhat like a radio demodulator and actually become the source of interference that can then cause interference to nearby sensitive electronic equipment. I'm not saying that this is the problem, but there is a small probability that it could be. I recall reading in QST (ham radio journal of ARRL that is the counterpart of AAW's American Woodturner magazine) a very long time ago about a radio interference case where the problem was traced to a metal fireplace tool hanging on a metal hook where both were a bit corroded/rusty and causing interference by acting as an antenna and picking up a nearby powerful transmitter signal and then radiating the noisy signal to nearby receiving equipment. That is probably the ultimate case for what is called incidental radiators.
 
Your best solution might be shielding the lathe and choking the power-line.

Exactly what do you mean shielding the lathe? Is this a metal box that covers the plastic electronic box on the back of the headstock, connected to a ground, or is it something else.

I have several feet of cord since the wall outlet is halfway up the lathe and about a foot from it. So I could have two coils under the line choke. But again, is the only feature to look for in a line choke the line diameter?

I know a contributing problem is that our U-verse signal is at the very end of the system. We have always had problems with it. this blue screen issue has been going on for years, we have nearly ditched it several times. Also, the Uverse line comes into the house about 8 feet from the location of the lathe. This is where the cable comes from the ground and is switched over to coax that now runs up into the ceiling and over to the computer/TV modem some 50 feet away. But I can call them and tell them that I am having problems and see what they can do. Claim, Nah, I have always had that equipment.
 
Exactly what do you mean shielding the lathe? Is this a metal box that covers the plastic electronic box on the back of the headstock, connected to a ground, or is it something else.

I have several feet of cord since the wall outlet is halfway up the lathe and about a foot from it. So I could have two coils under the line choke. But again, is the only feature to look for in a line choke the line diameter?

I know a contributing problem is that our U-verse signal is at the very end of the system. We have always had problems with it. this blue screen issue has been going on for years, we have nearly ditched it several times. Also, the Uverse line comes into the house about 8 feet from the location of the lathe. This is where the cable comes from the ground and is switched over to coax that now runs up into the ceiling and over to the computer/TV modem some 50 feet away. But I can call them and tell them that I am having problems and see what they can do. Claim, Nah, I have always had that equipment.

First of all it sounds like the problem belongs to U-verse. Have them fix their problems before you do anything. You might consider having the lathe running at low speed, but don't tell them about it or allow them to see that. That would be a good test to see how capable they are at troubleshooting.

Before enclosing the inverter, I would try the easier things. First, try line reactors.

I have about a half dozen MTE three-phase line/load reactors and they seem pretty good and lower cost than some big brand reactors. They can be used on single phase and I believe that they have literature for using them on their site here: MTE Reactors

If you search the industrial motors and controls section of eBay, you can find a link that will lead you to line/load reactors. I have bought some for bargain prices there. Only deal with sellers who have very very very high ratings.

The main parameters that you need to know would be either the full load motor current or voltage and horsepower. I would go for a reactor with a higher inductance if you find a choice between several different ones that will work for your lathe. For example if you can choose between 2.0 milli Henry and 3.0 milli Henry at 2.0 Amps, go for the 1.5. Don't worry about who Henry is. He is just some guy that the main electrical characteristic of coils were named after. In this particular instance, more Henry's is usually better. You can also probably contact MTE for technical help.

If you wish, you could also try a load reactor, but I am not sure that it would help a great deal. However, I could be mistaken. In any case, it can't hurt except in the pocketbook. All three outputs from the inverter (U, V, and W) connect to the reactor and then the three outputs from the reactor go to the three power inputs of the motor that were previously connected to the inverter.

After that you could search for a suitable metal box for the inverter. It needs plenty of ventilation, so the box would need to have a screen or perforated grille at the top and bottom. The Delta manual gives information about installing the inverter in an enclosure.

Next, on the list would be shielding, but for a 3520, there is not much to shield since the motor is so close to the inverter and the external controls are enclosed inside the headstock. There is no point in shielding the power cord.

If your lathe is not very close to the service entrance and ground rod, you might drive an additional ground rod as close as practical. This solution, however has a small potential of creating ground "loops" -- circulating ground currents between the two different earth grounds. Whatever you do, make certain that this additional earth ground is not connected to the local neutral (white) wire. There is only one place where the two are allowed by building codes to be connected together and that is at the service entrance.
 
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