guitar lacquer

[Gary Chapman]

I bought a gallon of gloss guitar lacquer at an auction for $5 thingking I could use it for a finish but I need some suggestions on how to rub it on. I have tried paper towels but the lacquer seems to dry too fast and I get uneven build up. Is there a way to extend the drying time so I can sub it into the wood and keep it flowing rather than drying so fast?
I want to use it because I can put on a couple of coats and not have to wait like varnish. Gary

 

[Bernie Hrytzak]

brushing lacquer

I typically reduce lacquer with lacquer thinner for spraying. For brushing, you , you might try reducing with 10-25% thinner, it will still dry fast but the coats will go on thinner. Experiment on scrap piece first and a small quantity of the lacquer only. You will have to water (or varasol) sand for a smooth finish.

Bernie

 

[Bill Weaver]

Gary,

You might look at using an automotive thinner. The thinners in that class have different drying times as for the seasons. Example for summer the thinner has an agent in it to slow the drying process.
Hope this will help.

 

[bbergst]

You should be able to purchase retarder to slow down the drying time. It comes in quarts, but you will only need a few ounces for a gallon. Available at good paint stores that still sell quality lacquer. Google it and you'll find it

 

[Jim Rinde]

Ipa

I bought a gallon of gloss guitar lacquer at an auction for $5 thingking I could use it for a finish but I need some suggestions on how to rub it on. I have tried paper towels but the lacquer seems to dry too fast and I get uneven build up. Is there a way to extend the drying time so I can sub it into the wood and keep it flowing rather than drying so fast?
I want to use it because I can put on a couple of coats and not have to wait like varnish. Gary

Try a slower evaporating alcohol such as IPA, isopropy alcohol, also called rubbing alcohol.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Try a slower evaporating alcohol such as IPA, isopropy alcohol, also called rubbing alcohol.

Are you certain about this? I have never heard of using alcohol as a lacquer reducer. Since alcohol (propyl , ethyl, and methyl) are very hygroscopic, at the very least I am afraid that there might be a problem with blushing of the finish if it is even possible to use it as a reducer. Even starting out with anhydrous alcohol seems problematic, at least around here where the RH is always very high.

 

[Steve Worcester]

are you sure it can be hand applied ? Most of the stuff I have seen is sprayed.

But to extend flow out time, use retarded. To thin it, lacquer thinner. You can use both in combination

 

[MichaelMouse]

Are you certain about this? I have never heard of using alcohol as a lacquer reducer.

Think he may be confusing with shellac. If you get the dehydrated isopropyl you can brush on with a bit of time to work a wet edge. The ketones and toluene in lacquer thinners are high vapor pressure items by comparison.

With the rate of evaporation on even isopropyl, much less etOH, no worries about its hygroscopic nature in use. The blush develops from under, normally, though it's possible that evaporative cooling might cause problems if it drops the temperature below the dewpoint. Good explanation here. http://www.woodcentral.com/russ/finish11.shtml

 

[Keith T.]

Hi Gary....Spray it. Look up the mfg.'s suggestions for thinning online if not on the can. My partner in my old furniture business was an expert finisher...he would mix the lacquer for the last coat very thin, almost all thinner. Then, spray on a wet coat, avoiding any runs. Difficult, but the result was nearly perfect. Of course, the initial layers were sanded to perfection first.

 

[Jim Rinde]

Are you certain about this? I have never heard of using alcohol as a lacquer reducer. Since alcohol (propyl , ethyl, and methyl) are very hygroscopic, at the very least I am afraid that there might be a problem with blushing of the finish if it is even possible to use it as a reducer. Even starting out with anhydrous alcohol seems problematic, at least around here where the RH is always very high.

Bill: I looked up the MSDS for a lacquer thinner and found it contained the following five solvents:Toluene, Acetone, Propylene glycol methyl ether acetate, Methyl ethyl ketone & Isopropyl alcohol. Acetone, MEK and IPA are all quite hydroscopic materials.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Bill: I looked up the MSDS for a lacquer thinner and found it contained the following five solvents:Toluene, Acetone, Propylene glycol methyl ether acetate, Methyl ethyl ketone & Isopropyl alcohol. Acetone, MEK and IPA are all quite hydroscopic materials.

Jim,

I would not use straight alcohol to "thin" solvent lacquer. The mix of solvents in lacquer is blended for specific purpose, some being fast to dissolve the resin and then flash off, others, functioning as "tail" solvents, are there to allow the resin to level out into a proper film. If you disrupt the solvent balance you're likely to mess up the finish.

 

[Jim Rinde]

Jim,

I would not use straight alcohol to "thin" solvent lacquer. The mix of solvents in lacquer is blended for specific purpose, some being fast to dissolve the resin and then flash off, others, functioning as "tail" solvents, are there to allow the resin to level out into a proper film. If you disrupt the solvent balance you're likely to mess up the finish.

Mark: You are quite right about messing up the solvent balance. However, the question was how to slow down the evaporation and IPA would do that. Adding a small amount would probably be OK.

 

[Brian McInturff]

I would think the water in the IPA would create greater problems. Not saying it wouldn't work but having grew up in an antique business and refinishing furniture from the age of 7 I've never seen it used.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Mark: You are quite right about messing up the solvent balance. However, the question was how to slow down the evaporation and IPA would do that. Adding a small amount would probably be OK.

Hi Jim,

I thought the OP's problem was trying to use solvent lacquer as a wiping finish. Simply thinning it with a solvent will not help him. While solvent lacquer is a relatively poor choice for what he's trying to do, to have any hope of success he needs to get a regular lacquer "retarder", which itself is a blend of solvents, to make his product into a brushing (natural bristles only) lacquer. Wiping it on like french polish or an oil finish, however, will still not be a good idea.

 

[Jim Rinde]

Hi Jim,

I thought the OP's problem was trying to use solvent lacquer as a wiping finish. Simply thinning it with a solvent will not help him. While solvent lacquer is a relatively poor choice for what he's trying to do, to have any hope of success he needs to get a regular lacquer "retarder", which itself is a blend of solvents, to make his product into a brushing (natural bristles only) lacquer. Wiping it on like french polish or an oil finish, however, will still not be a good idea.

MarK: "Is there a way to extend the drying time so I can sub it into the wood and keep it flowing rather than drying so fast?" This was what I was responding to. Lacquer is a solvent based finish that drys by evaporating off the solvents and leaving a polymer layer. Most finishes of this type have a mixture of solvents that are fast, medium and slow evaporating. My thought was to add more of a slow evaporating solvent to entend the working time before the lacquer begins to set up. IPA is a generally available and should work. By IPA I mean 100% IPA not the 70% stuff.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Jim: My point here, is that the OP should get regular lacquer retarder and follow the directions, it's readily available at any decent paint store [or even a Benny Moore shop ], rather than messing with the solvent chemistry. M.L. Campbell (sp) and Behlen make very good retarders, but there are others.

BTW: Solvent-borne lacquer is not a polymer (formed by a respiration reaction with oxygen like reactive/drying oil finishes) but rather is a complete resin which, exactly like shellac, forms a coalesced film by simple evaporation of the solvents after they partially dissolve the prior layer. Not trying to be picky here, but don't want readers to misunderstand the process.

 

[Jim Rinde]

Jim: My point here, is that the OP should get regular lacquer retarder and follow the directions, it's readily available at any decent paint store [or even a Benny Moore shop ], rather than messing with the solvent chemistry. M.L. Campbell (sp) and Behlen make very good retarders, but there are others.

BTW: Solvent-borne lacquer is not a polymer (formed by a respiration reaction with oxygen like reactive/drying oil finishes) but rather is a complete resin which, exactly like shellac, forms a coalesced film by simple evaporation of the solvents after they partially dissolve the prior layer. Not trying to be picky here, but don't want readers to misunderstand the process.

MarK: I don't think we disagree on what a Lacquer is by much. However my point is that film forming resins are polymers, some natural form trees and plants and manmade. I did a search google search on: "polymer lacquer" and found the following which I think is a good discription on a lacquer.
Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
A lacquer paint is in fact a polymer dissolved in a strongly polar organic solvent like Methyl Ethyl Ketone, Acetone, Ethyl Acetate, Diethyl ether or similar solvents. Often these solvents are diluted with a less polar solvent like toluene or petroleum ether. In additon to the polymer which provides the binding function and the base properties of the coating, pigments, plasticizers, antioxidents, thermal stabilizers, leveling agents, and other additives are used to provide the desired properties, appearance, and use lifetime.

When the coating dries, in fact the solvents evaporate away leaving a nearly uniform coating of the polymer and related additives.

The polymers make the coating hard because the polymers are the dominant constituent in the coating. Their properties are the dominant property of the coating. Although the additives influence to some extent, the base polymer is the major influencer.
Source(s):
Over 20 years experience in the design, formulation, and use of coatings as a chemical engineer.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Ah Ha

I had not checked as to the structure of the resin(s) as being polymeric compounds. My response was focused on the "process" of polymerization which is the primary way that reactive oil finishes form the film coatings that we use as wood finishes.

I believe we're both on the same page now