I have looked at all the videos, and read everything I can find about grinding the fingernail or the ellsworth. The nose angle is well defined like 60 Degrees for the Ellsworth and 35 to 45 for the dpindle gouge. Bonnie Kline uses 35 for her fingernail spindle gouge. Refering to her Sharpening on the AAW video, she says that the side angle is different front angle. I know on the Vari-grind jig the side angle is set by the long support in or out. The nose angle is set by the vari-grind tool holder and arm adjustment. However, no where is there a mention of the side angles in degrees. And also how would the angle be measured in relation to the tool. Seems to me the side angle would be variable depending on the gouge shape in order to get an edge on the side bevel. But is there any specific Angle in degrees as a starting point. Without some starting angle how do you really know how far to pull out the bottom holder of the jig? I'm an engineer and maybe too hung up on degrees and such.
-
Congratulations to Alex Bradley winner of the December 2024 Turning Challenge (click here for details) -
Conversations are now Direct Messages (click here for details) -
Congratulations to Gabriel Hoff for "Spalted Beech Round Bottom Box" being selected as Turning of the Week for January 6, 2024 (click here for details) -
Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.
Gouge Side Angles
- Thread starter LANKFORD
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2005
- Messages
- 13,037
- Likes
- 5,480
- Location
- Dalworthington Gardens, TX
- Website
- pbase.com
Measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with axe
You would have a heck of a time trying to measure the angles on the wings -- not to mention that it is not constant from point to point anyway. The important thing to get in your mind is the shape of the wings and the angles will take care of themselves. Just for information purposes only and not having any practicality when grinding is that the Ellsworth grind produces an angle that is approximately constant around the entire bevel, unless you overgrind the wings. Here is a sketch of the side view of an Ellsworth grind. If you make it look like that and if you get the top view of the nose shaped right then it will be done properly and if you just have to know what the angles are you can then go and measure it at 1 mm increments and post the results here.
Another engineer,
Bill
Oh, the curse of being an engineer!! Take off your engineer hat and put on your woodturning face shield and hard hat.LANKFORD said:
You would have a heck of a time trying to measure the angles on the wings -- not to mention that it is not constant from point to point anyway. The important thing to get in your mind is the shape of the wings and the angles will take care of themselves. Just for information purposes only and not having any practicality when grinding is that the Ellsworth grind produces an angle that is approximately constant around the entire bevel, unless you overgrind the wings. Here is a sketch of the side view of an Ellsworth grind. If you make it look like that and if you get the top view of the nose shaped right then it will be done properly and if you just have to know what the angles are you can then go and measure it at 1 mm increments and post the results here.
Another engineer,
Bill
Attachments
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 16, 2005
- Messages
- 3,540
- Likes
- 19
Experiment
Engineers! Numbers! This is art , you know. Work of risk, not of certainty. Is 9 degrees in the angle of the gouge grind really important, or is it pretty much the difference 1000 and 1100 on some direct-reading LCD? Nice to know, but once you do, you still haven't cut wood. Perhaps, given the contour of the wood you're cutting, the tool won't work anyway.
Yeah, you're right, it's AB and MA, not BS and MS. Not that I don't like engineers. Daughter married one, eldest son are one.
The contour of the gouge is probably as important, if not more important than the length of the bevel. You're going to get heel bruises chasing the curl around a steep curve for either a too long bevel or too thick metal. I'd put my effort into understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the grinds as they come, rather than change them without knowing what I'm losing. Try as we might, I doubt any of us can emulate (plagiarism!) the style of our hero who uses gouge W and angle X because it fits his style. Evidence of the importance of his choices is demonstrated by our second-round choice, who uses gouge Y and grind Z with equal success.
The moveable headstock and long "Texas" gouge handles are favored by some nose-up cutters, while we who cut at centerline with gouge handles close to 90 to the rest use short handles and close rests to accomplish the same, just so we won't have to lean over the bed as they would be forced to do. We simply follow the cut while standing relaxed and looking at the other side. Probably 90% of good cutting is determined by tactile feedback anyway. Of course we're not using the same gouges, just the same edge presentation.
So cut with what you've got for a bit before you fuss with angles and rolls and see what it does for you. Experiment with different grinds and gouges as you get the chance, rather than buy the current fad tool and try to alter your turning to accomodate it. I've a rack of fad tools, mostly scrapers, that I have to step away from the lathe to reach, but seldom do. With luck, you can avoid such a waste of money. The tools I use are right at hand buried in the shavings on top of the stand, and all are maintained as I prefer, not someone else.
Engineers! Numbers! This is art , you know. Work of risk, not of certainty. Is 9 degrees in the angle of the gouge grind really important, or is it pretty much the difference 1000 and 1100 on some direct-reading LCD? Nice to know, but once you do, you still haven't cut wood. Perhaps, given the contour of the wood you're cutting, the tool won't work anyway.
Yeah, you're right, it's AB and MA, not BS and MS. Not that I don't like engineers. Daughter married one, eldest son are one.
The contour of the gouge is probably as important, if not more important than the length of the bevel. You're going to get heel bruises chasing the curl around a steep curve for either a too long bevel or too thick metal. I'd put my effort into understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the grinds as they come, rather than change them without knowing what I'm losing. Try as we might, I doubt any of us can emulate (plagiarism!) the style of our hero who uses gouge W and angle X because it fits his style. Evidence of the importance of his choices is demonstrated by our second-round choice, who uses gouge Y and grind Z with equal success.
The moveable headstock and long "Texas" gouge handles are favored by some nose-up cutters, while we who cut at centerline with gouge handles close to 90 to the rest use short handles and close rests to accomplish the same, just so we won't have to lean over the bed as they would be forced to do. We simply follow the cut while standing relaxed and looking at the other side. Probably 90% of good cutting is determined by tactile feedback anyway. Of course we're not using the same gouges, just the same edge presentation.
So cut with what you've got for a bit before you fuss with angles and rolls and see what it does for you. Experiment with different grinds and gouges as you get the chance, rather than buy the current fad tool and try to alter your turning to accomodate it. I've a rack of fad tools, mostly scrapers, that I have to step away from the lathe to reach, but seldom do. With luck, you can avoid such a waste of money. The tools I use are right at hand buried in the shavings on top of the stand, and all are maintained as I prefer, not someone else.
Last edited:
Bill Grumbine
In Memorium
When I was out in WI last week, I made a comment about falling into the hands of engineers! I am so lazy when it comes to sharpening my gouge that I didn't even make the block Oneway suggests. As a result, I came up with a very simple method for sharpening the tool. Stick it about so far into the varigrind attachment. Then, move the arm to about halfway on its arc of travel. Very precise so far, right? 😉 Then, I lay the tool on the wheel so that the bevel is snug up against the wheel. I adjust the arm to hold it in that position and flip the go switch on the grinder.
Not only did I grind my own gouge this way, but I offered a "gouge workshop" for day two. I had a line of people (12 or more) who brought their gouges in to be modified by my particular method. In every single case, I ground off very little metal and made very minor changes. Then they all, plus a few who used my gouge, stepped up to the lathe to give it a whirl, so to speak.
The key is not the angle, or the name on the grind. The key is wiggling that gouge around on the wood until you find that sweet spot and the shavings begin to fly with almost effortless ease. Close to half of those attending my demo discovered that for themselves while turning on the lathe last Sunday afternoon, and despite a lot of them being engineers, there were no protractors or plumb bobs involved.
Bill
Not only did I grind my own gouge this way, but I offered a "gouge workshop" for day two. I had a line of people (12 or more) who brought their gouges in to be modified by my particular method. In every single case, I ground off very little metal and made very minor changes. Then they all, plus a few who used my gouge, stepped up to the lathe to give it a whirl, so to speak.
The key is not the angle, or the name on the grind. The key is wiggling that gouge around on the wood until you find that sweet spot and the shavings begin to fly with almost effortless ease. Close to half of those attending my demo discovered that for themselves while turning on the lathe last Sunday afternoon, and despite a lot of them being engineers, there were no protractors or plumb bobs involved.
Bill
I did a slight variation to the Elsworth grind.
When done like orgininally explained above, I do a second bevel with a shorter angle, grind a bit more the thickness off the jaws... and you would say WHY?
That enables you to go deeper in hollowing the interior of the vase, while still having the bevel touching the wood.
The liaison between the side and the bottom of the vase can be smooth while shorter.
When done like orgininally explained above, I do a second bevel with a shorter angle, grind a bit more the thickness off the jaws... and you would say WHY?
That enables you to go deeper in hollowing the interior of the vase, while still having the bevel touching the wood.
The liaison between the side and the bottom of the vase can be smooth while shorter.
One important consideration about the side angles is that they not be too small. The most common mistake I see here is an angle that is so narrow that the cutting edge has very little support, so that it breaks down quickly, especially if used in a scraping mode. Easy error to make when sharpening deep-fluted gouges.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2004
- Messages
- 9,070
- Likes
- 5,609
- Location
- Lakeland, Florida
- Website
- www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Hey Lankford,
You would benifit tremendously from the Capitol Area Woodturners. The have easy access and regularly scheduled help sessions and a mentor program.
I saw where you have given up on clubs
"I gave up on clubs. Gettin too old with not so good feet to attend meetings, events. I now do everything via the web and this type of forum."
Give Frank Stepanski a call.
They meet on Saturdays so it would be a 20 minute trip from Vienna unlike the 5 hour trips I rember on a washington work day.
Capital Area Woodturners
Area Served: Washington DC, Maryland, and Northern Virginia
Meeting City: Alexandria
Meeting State: VA
Meeting Place: Bryant Adult Learning Center, Popkins Lane, in woodshop
Meeting Date: Second Saturday of each month
Number of Members: 240
Chapter Web Site: www.capwoodturners.org
Contact:
Frank Stepanski
228 Aquia Bay Ave
Stafford, VA 22554-5327
540- 720-4202
woodturner@purespeed.com
You would benifit tremendously from the Capitol Area Woodturners. The have easy access and regularly scheduled help sessions and a mentor program.
I saw where you have given up on clubs
"I gave up on clubs. Gettin too old with not so good feet to attend meetings, events. I now do everything via the web and this type of forum."
Give Frank Stepanski a call.
They meet on Saturdays so it would be a 20 minute trip from Vienna unlike the 5 hour trips I rember on a washington work day.
Capital Area Woodturners
Area Served: Washington DC, Maryland, and Northern Virginia
Meeting City: Alexandria
Meeting State: VA
Meeting Place: Bryant Adult Learning Center, Popkins Lane, in woodshop
Meeting Date: Second Saturday of each month
Number of Members: 240
Chapter Web Site: www.capwoodturners.org
Contact:
Frank Stepanski
228 Aquia Bay Ave
Stafford, VA 22554-5327
540- 720-4202
woodturner@purespeed.com