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Full spectrum photography daylight bulbs?

Odie

Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
TOTW Team
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I recently took the advice of someone trying to help with my photography, and ditched the incandescent bulbs. The last couple of bowls I photographed were lighted by CFL "daylight" bulbs, and there is some improvement. The daylight CFLs are not terribly expensive, as far as CFLs go.

I've run across some CFL bulbs that seem to be specifically applicable to photography, or so the labeling of some of these bulbs does mention photography. Some don't specifically mention photography, but come up in an Amazon search for "photography CFL bulb". Descriptive words like "daylight balanced, pure white, and full spectrum" are being used. These are a bit more expensive. The bulbs I'm currently using say "daylight", but not "daylight balanced"......nor do they say anything about full spectrum, or pure white......

Just wondering if anyone here has any comments, preferences, or other information on these bulbs for photography use. Should I see any difference between the daylight CFL bulbs I've used recently......, and those that mention daylight balanced, full spectrum, or pure white bulbs?

One thing I didn't know is the light output for wattage rating of a CFL is roughly 1/4th that of an incandescent bulb. A 25w CFL is about the same as a 100w incandescent bulb.

Thanks......

ooc
 
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Well, daylight should be in the 5000-6200 Kelvin range.
CFLs will work fine (John Lucas has tested a bunch) but the manufacturers often stretch the truth. CFLs, in this application, need to warm up, maybe 10 minutes. They have been known to change color temperature while they are turned on, not something that you or I will notice. Probably best to do a custom white balance when photographing with them.
But the biggest stretch is usually the power output compared to incandescent and such. You can still get a lot of watts in a socket without the heat you would normally get with incandescent. I shoot incandescents with 500 watts on the left and right side and 250W on top. The issue with those (photo bulbs) is they have about a 6-10 hr lifespan. And they get real hot, enough to melt the plastic diffusers on the side of the tent.
If you look through the offerings at Cowboy Studio and Adorama you can get a good feel for the bulbs available in CFL.

I really want to go LED, but the descent ones are in the $1500+ area for a three light setup.
 
I recently took the advice of someone trying to help with my photography, and ditched the incandescent bulbs. The last couple of bowls I photographed were lighted by CFL "daylight" bulbs, and there is some improvement. The daylight CFLs are not terribly expensive, as far as CFLs go.

I've run across some CFL bulbs that seem to be specifically applicable to photography, or so the labeling of some of these bulbs does mention photography. Some don't specifically mention photography, but come up in an Amazon search for "photography CFL bulb". Descriptive words like "daylight balanced, pure white, and full spectrum" are being used. These are a bit more expensive. The bulbs I'm currently using say "daylight", but not "daylight balanced"......nor do they say anything about full spectrum, or pure white......

Just wondering if anyone here has any comments, preferences, or other information on these bulbs for photography use. Should I see any difference between the daylight CFL bulbs I've used recently......, and those that mention daylight balanced, full spectrum, or pure white bulbs?

One thing I didn't know is the light output for wattage rating of a CFL is roughly 1/4th that of an incandescent bulb. A 25w CFL is about the same as a 100w incandescent bulb.

Thanks......

ooc

I would check with reputable dealers such as B&H and Adorama to see which CFL's are made for photography. However, FYI there is no such thing as a true full spectrum CFL. Fluorescent lights work by ion discharge which means that they output light at discrete narrow-band wavelengths. The better ones use a mixture of phosphors and gasses to emit light at a large number of discrete wavelengths, but still it won't be a continuous spectrum of light. The good news is that our eyes have a tristimulous response to light so a mixture of red, green, and blue light can cover the portion of human vision to which we are most sensitive. However because each kind of light source has missing portions of spectrum in its output, there will still be a difference in how we perceive some colors when we compare these sources against each other or against natural daylight which is the "gold standard".

Most of the time all those technical details aren't critically important. Our eyes and also digital camera sensors are sensitive to a very wide gamut of colors, but by the time the color information is digitized and converted to a file that our computers recognize, the range of color information has already been reduced to a fraction of the color gamut that we are able to see. Besides that, our computer monitors and color printers limit the range of displayable colors even further. The good news is that the amount of color information is still plenty adequate for a color image to look faithful to the original colors IF the color of white looks white to our eyes. If things that are supposed to look white look orange or green or blue then the image will look terrible. That is why photographers are so interested in achieving a good white balance.

There are various ways of setting white balance and generally speaking just about any good high quality light source will give us good color fidelity if we go to the trouble to make sure that the white balance is good.The industry standard for high noon daylight white is 5000K, but for the average person using a typical computer monitor, a color temperature of 6500K tends to look better. So that is the color temperature that is used by most standard color profiles. Each time that you shoot your turnings, first get an in-camera calibrated white balance and the results should be fine.

Don't put too much stock in the equivalency ratings that you see on the package of CFL's. A 13 watt bulb says it is a 60 watt "replacement" -- not really equal in light output. One difference that is important is that the light from a CFL radiates mostly to the side while an incandescent bulb is closer to radiating omnidirectionally. This means that you might need to reconfigure your lighting or add more light or increase the exposure time.

Well, daylight should be in the 5000-6200 Kelvin range.
CFLs will work fine (John Lucas has tested a bunch) but the manufacturers often stretch the truth. CFLs, in this application, need to warm up, maybe 10 minutes. They have been known to change color temperature while they are turned on, not something that you or I will notice. Probably best to do a custom white balance when photographing with them.
But the biggest stretch is usually the power output compared to incandescent and such. You can still get a lot of watts in a socket without the heat you would normally get with incandescent. I shoot incandescents with 500 watts on the left and right side and 250W on top. The issue with those (photo bulbs) is they have about a 6-10 hr lifespan. And they get real hot, enough to melt the plastic diffusers on the side of the tent.
If you look through the offerings at Cowboy Studio and Adorama you can get a good feel for the bulbs available in CFL.

I really want to go LED, but the descent ones are in the $1500+ area for a three light setup.

I think that I must be using the same photo bulbs that you are using. They are blue colored, have a color temperature of 4800K, get hotter than the dickens at 500 watts apiece, and only last 6 - 8 hours, and cost about $12 apiece -- so figure two dollars per hour per bulb not counting the cost of electricity. I still have a stash of them, but am considering other options when they all burn out. Just to illustrate how hot they get, the glass globe on one of mine melted once when it didn't get enough cooling air. I have wondered about LED lights, but their narrow-band spectral content makes me concerned about color fidelity. I really have not looked at the high end pricey ones.
 
Well so far I haven't found a CFL bulb that actually produces accurate color. However the ones I bought from www.Alzo.com that are rated at 5500K and have CRI index of 93 are close enough for most people. CRI index is the color rating and the higher the better. On the old Incandescent bulbs a CRI index of 93 would mean it was pretty much dead on. As Bill said none of them are full spectrum meaning they are missing some color. On the ones I bought I have to add about 10 magenta to get the correct color but your monitor may be off more than that unless you color calibrate it. You can shoot with these on the daylight color balance setting on your camera or if you have custom white balance use that.
The wattage ratings are a joke. I bought bulbs that are supposedly equal to 300 watts bu near as I can tell they give about as much light as a 100 watt bulb if that good. Still as long as you shoot in a darkened room you should be OK. that brings me to another point. Any other light in the room can affect the color. Even the color of the walls. So it may not be just the bulbs that are throwing your color off.
 
Yea sorry wasn't thinking. that is their site. I was going to post a handout that I pass out in my classes on lighting that has the various things that I use in my personal photography set up but the file is too large. If anyone wants it send me an e-mail and ask for the lighting handout. johnclucas@charter.net
I have gotten some good lights from Adorama also but prefer the bulbs from Alzodigital.
 
Odie
I use Reveal bulbs they work pretty good better then CFL's. And think no more real bulbs.CFL's suck


Harry.......It looks like the full spectrum daylight balanced pure white light bulbs are pretty common with photographers.......have you tried those?

The reveal bulbs claim to filter yellow light. Could be a possibility. They are inexpensive, so wouldn't be much expense to try them out.

thanks

ooc
 
I have used Reveal bulbs, not for photography, but for general lighting. Their only real claim to fame is that they flatter skin tones mainly by filtering out some of the orange and yellow. They are horribly overpriced so I no longer buy them.

Other than the sun, here is no such thing as full spectrum lights except in the minds of marketing types looking for happy words to promote a product. Even natural sunlight isn't always the same color. John mentioned that the color of the walls changes the color of the light. The same thing is true when shooting outdoors in natural sunlight. The blueness of the sky, the time of day, the green of trees and grass, the color of sand in a desert, the color of buildings in a city -- whatever your surroundings happen to be all have a very pronounced influence on the color of natural daylight. That is why photographers will do either an in-camera custom white balance or shoot color reference charts for creating a post-production white balance and/or custom color profile if they do not want those various factor to play a part in the final image. Sometimes, such as in landscape shots those things that influence the color of light are what gives a image its appeal so they are left as is.

The main thing in lighting a product shot such as a turned item is to insure that the lighting that you use for shooting the image is able to reveal the colors that you see in natural daylight. Sometimes the difference can be drastic. I turned a small vase from Texas Juniper yesterday that has beautiful pinks and purples when viewed in daylight and even under incandescent lighting, but under fluorescent lighting, the color is just a monotone ugly drab brown.
 
Reveal bulbs aren't daylight balanced. They aren't far off but it's been too many years since I tested them to remember what they are. Ideally a bulb used for Photography should say 5500 Kelvin and even better have a CRI index rating which should be 90 or higher. The bulbs I use are actually higher in Kelvin but seem to be pretty close to the daylight setting on my camera. I have to add 10 magenta to make it close when I'm in Photo shop.
 
Reveal bulbs aren't daylight balanced. They aren't far off but it's been too many years since I tested them to remember what they are. Ideally a bulb used for Photography should say 5500 Kelvin and even better have a CRI index rating which should be 90 or higher. The bulbs I use are actually higher in Kelvin but seem to be pretty close to the daylight setting on my camera. I have to add 10 magenta to make it close when I'm in Photo shop.

One thing that I have found even with photo lamps is that the color temperature is continuously changing especially with the 500 watt 4800K bulbs. I discovered this one year when shooting the auction turnings at our club's annual Christmas banquet. It took about an hour to shoot all of the turnings and the white balance changed considerably during that time. Fortunately, I shot a white balance reference target every ten minutes or so which enabled me to keep a good white balance. It appears that when a bulb is "getting ready to go" is when the most rapid color shifting takes place.
 
Reveal bulbs aren't daylight balanced. They aren't far off but it's been too many years since I tested them to remember what they are. Ideally a bulb used for Photography should say 5500 Kelvin and even better have a CRI index rating which should be 90 or higher. The bulbs I use are actually higher in Kelvin but seem to be pretty close to the daylight setting on my camera. I have to add 10 magenta to make it close when I'm in Photo shop.

I bought some of the Reveal bulbs today....just to try them out. If they don't work out for me, I can always put them into my stash of household bulbs.

We'll see..........😕

I still haven't purchased some of the full spectrum daylight balanced pure white bulbs yet. Haven't seen any of these locally. I do see them on Amazon. I see several brands, but since John likes the Alzo, I have some of those in my shopping cart. I do need to try out the Reveal bulbs first, though.......

ooc
 
Now one thing I should say is it all depends on what you plan to do with the photo. If all your doing is showing your work on Forums then perfect color isn't necessary. Yes its a good thing but not essential. Good focus, enough depth of field and close color will show off your work on here. Now if your going to use the photos to enter shows then everything about the photo is critical and essential.
 
... I still haven't purchased some of the full spectrum daylight balanced pure white bulbs yet. Haven't seen any of these locally. I do see them on Amazon. ....

There really isn't any such thing, but as John said, for viewing images on the web, a good bulb is good enough. The average computer monitor can only display a small portion of the colors that we can actually see (forget about the advertising BS about how many colors monitor X can show). Besides that, unless somebody has gone to the effort to calibrfate their monitor for a proper white balance, the colors won't look exactly the same as what you see on your monitor. You have probably been in a store where they have numerous monitors or TV's on display and all showing the same thing. You have also noticed that the colors look drastically different from one to another -- it's not because some are necessarily better than others, but because they haven't bothered with getting the colors set up properly on each monitor.

Now one thing I should say is it all depends on what you plan to do with the photo. If all your doing is showing your work on Forums then perfect color isn't necessary. Yes its a good thing but not essential. Good focus, enough depth of field and close color will show off your work on here. Now if your going to use the photos to enter shows then everything about the photo is critical and essential.

That is so true. I don't mind seeing a photo of a turning that is a little orange or blue, but I hate to see blurry images caused by poor focusing or camera shake.
 
You would think it would go without saying that you should use a tripod to take photos of your work but I see so many that are fuzzy due to camera shake. It is extremely important to preview the image, enlarged if possible, and look for blur due to misfocus or camera shake. It's such a simply thing to eliminate. If your tripod is on carpet a remote release is also important because you can shake the camera with your finger.
 
You would think it would go without saying that you should use a tripod to take photos of your work but I see so many that are fuzzy due to camera shake. It is extremely important to preview the image, enlarged if possible, and look for blur due to misfocus or camera shake. It's such a simply thing to eliminate. If your tripod is on carpet a remote release is also important because you can shake the camera with your finger.

We sometime use the 2 second timer to prevent the camera shake. Not as good as a remote but most digital cameras come with a timer.
Wood turnings rarely move in 2 seconds. It can be a gamble shooting wildlife through a spotting scope.
Al
 
We sometime use the 2 second timer to prevent the camera shake. Not as good as a remote but most digital cameras come with a timer.
Wood turnings rarely move in 2 seconds. It can be a gamble shooting wildlife through a spotting scope.
Al

For still life shots the builtt-in timer is every bit as good as a remote. Actually it is better than a wired remote since even moving the wire can induce camera movement in critical situations. I combine both a wired remote plus a ten second delay when doing astrophotography.

Some green wood moves a lot, but not that much. If anything goes wrong, I blame it on wood movement.
 
I happen to work in the lighting business (theatrical) and have access to the equipment to measure the spectrum of varying light sources. If anyone REALLY wants to know just how different their lamp is from full spectrum, send me a PM. 😀
 
No need to use daylight bulbs

You don't need to use daylight bulbs to get accurate color in digital photographs.

The key is that all the bulbs in your lighting set up be identical. Same wattage, same manufacturer, same type (incandescent, cfl, led, etc.).

Use the "manual" (sometimes called "custom") white balance setting on your camera. Check with your camera's manual to get the procedure for a manual white balance setting. Prop up a white sheet of paper under the lights at the place where you would put your turning to be photographed. Have all the lights set up and turned on as if you were taking a photo. Take a manual white balance reading in accordance to your camera's instructions. Use this setting when taking pictures of your turnings. I do this all the time - the color balance is just right and you can use cheap bulbs.
 
Custom white balance is the best way along with using lights that all have the same color. The problem is if you use 2 different lights even from the same company they may not have the same color output. I found wide varieties and my lights had the same specs according to the company.
The other problem of course is That many woodturners don't have cameras with custom white balance.
 
I have found that CFL's with a color temperature in the vicinity of 5K to 6K seem to have better overall color accuracy than those in the 3K to 4K range. Creating a custom white balance does give very good overall results, but the CFL's with the lower color temperature seem to be completely missing any output in the blue and violet range. Even with a custom white balance, the blues and violets in an image may just show up as being somewhat muddy and darker than normal.

About a year ago, I got an X-Rite Passport that was part of a package deal with an i1 Display Pro colorimeter for calibrating my monitor. I wasn't so sure that I would find it useful, however I am now sold on it because the results are stunningly true to life. Basically it is a miniature version of the 24 patch color checker along with software to create a custom profile for each shoot with its unique lighting conditions. The custom profile can be used with either Photoshop or Lightroom and maybe any some other software that is able to use DNG (digital negative) files.
 
I'm holding out to switch to LEDS.
It has to be a single light focus able instead of an array for stills. Video works well for arrays but not well for stills.
in the next year for sure. It's there but not at my price point yet, has to be at $1K for three lights with stands and reflectors. Have to have equivelant outputs of at least 500 watts tungsten each and 1000 would be better. And dimable.
 
I'm holding out to switch to LEDS.
It has to be a single light focus able instead of an array for stills. Video works well for arrays but not well for stills.
in the next year for sure. It's there but not at my price point yet, has to be at $1K for three lights with stands and reflectors. Have to have equivelant outputs of at least 500 watts tungsten each and 1000 would be better. And dimable.

If the word "photography" is, in any way, associated with a piece of equipment then the price automatically goes out the stratosphere. How about a nice simple set of strobes with modeling lights? Of course, they ae also over 1K and it isn't even new technology. Maybe a hybrid that uses strobes and LED modeling lights. That would be a big improvement.
 
You can pick up strobes (x3) for about that price, but I prefer "hot" lights (continuous) for this. Ironically, when I was a photo student all I used was strobes. Normans with the schools unlimited budgets and we just counted POPS for the difficult still exposures. I guess I have become accustom to WSYWIG.
 
I bought some of the Reveal bulbs today....just to try them out. If they don't work out for me, I can always put them into my stash of household bulbs.

We'll see..........😕

I still haven't purchased some of the full spectrum daylight balanced pure white bulbs yet. Haven't seen any of these locally. I do see them on Amazon. I see several brands, but since John likes the Alzo, I have some of those in my shopping cart. I do need to try out the Reveal bulbs first, though.......

ooc

Since making this post back in February, I've been using nothing but the GE Reveal bulbs for all photography of my bowls. I use the auto setting on my camera, and turn out all other artificial lighting to take the picture. I allow natural sunlight to enter the room, if it's available. I have a photo editing program, and discovered it's very easy to get natural color if I take something I know is white in the photo, and do all the adjustments to make that spot look as white as I can. My camera is an S95 Canon, and I'm very pleased with the results I'm getting, as well as family, friends, and customers.

ooc
 
Your Canon S95 has the ability to set a custom white balance. Using that function will save you a lot of fiddling around in software to get your whites white. Also, software that came free with your camera (Digital Photp Professional) has the capability to set white balance by clicking on something that is white.
 
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Your Canon S95 has the ability to set a custom white balance. Using that function will save you a lot of fiddling around in software to get your whites white. Also, software that came free with your camera (Digital Photp Professional) has the capability to set white balance by clicking on something that is white.

Never could get that function to work in my camera.....but, it doesn't matter since I'm getting the same results. I do have to spend about 30 seconds longer to manually adjust the white balance.

ooc
 
I prefer continuous lights for craft work. I did use electronic flash at work simply because we already had them st up. However it's hard to get enough power to shoot at F22 when needed especially when you have light modifiers in front of the lights With continuous lights you just hold the shutter open longer
If you want a good flash at a reasonable cost look at the Paul C Buff White Lightening lights.
 
I bought a couple strobes a few years ago and took them back before using them when I figured out that they were not going to meet my needs. Most photographers who use strobes are shooting at a wider aperture, but when it is necessary to stop down to f/13 or smaller, holding the shutter open longer won't help. I don't recall how much flash power I would need, but concluded it involved spending thousands of dollars for serious studio flashes. I've decided that spending $12 for a 500 watt bulb that lasts six hours isn't so bad after all. At least with continuous lighting I can leave the shutter open for as long as necessary.
 
I bought a couple strobes a few years ago and took them back before using them when I figured out that they were not going to meet my needs. Most photographers who use strobes are shooting at a wider aperture, but when it is necessary to stop down to f/13 or smaller, holding the shutter open longer won't help. I don't recall how much flash power I would need, but concluded it involved spending thousands of dollars for serious studio flashes. I've decided that spending $12 for a 500 watt bulb that lasts six hours isn't so bad after all. At least with continuous lighting I can leave the shutter open for as long as necessary.

For that situation, you put it on bulb and use multiple pops of the flash. Did that when I had to use a 4x5 with long bellows extension to get depth of field with a macro photo. Same principle here. And is easier to control since the only light source is the flash. Need a pitch dark room for it.
 
Exactly Steve although it does take a dark room to do that. If you have any light coming in through a window it will at the very least change the colors of the shadows of the piece. If you keep the shutter open long enough it will start to change the color of the piece if the color doesn't match the flash units. I've used 3200 watt second flashes and still had to pop the flash 4 to 8 times to get the depth of field. With less expensive units that put out maybe 400 watt seconds you have to pop the flash a lot or try to use more direct light.
 
For that situation, you put it on bulb and use multiple pops of the flash. Did that when I had to use a 4x5 with long bellows extension to get depth of field with a macro photo. Same principle here. And is easier to control since the only light source is the flash. Need a pitch dark room for it.

OK, now I understand what you mean by counting POPS. The pitch dark room is sort of a problem here. Our house wasn't designed with the photographer in mind.
 
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