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Freeze drying

Joined
Jan 4, 2012
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Location
Ladner British Columbia
Website
woodbowlsandthings.wordpress.com
Has anyone had any success with freeze drying rough outs?
Presently I am trying to get to a large amount of maple that has spalted and I worry it might go too far if I leave it any longer. I have a freezer partly full of chunks of maple but wonder what will happen if instead of boiling or/and sealing I just put the rough outs (bowls and hollow forms) in the freezer.
I also considered coating either the end grain or the complete rough out with Anchorseal before placing in the freezer.
Anyone tried this?
 
Do you mean REAL freeze-drying?

Has anyone had any success with freeze drying rough outs?
Presently I am trying to get to a large amount of maple that has spalted and I worry it might go too far if I leave it any longer. I have a freezer partly full of chunks of maple but wonder what will happen if instead of boiling or/and sealing I just put the rough outs (bowls and hollow forms) in the freezer.
I also considered coating either the end grain or the complete rough out with Anchorseal before placing in the freezer.
Anyone tried this?

Back in the mid-2000's I tried quick-drying some small "green"-turned bowls in the lyophilizer in my lab - this would be considered 'true' freeze drying, as in deep-freezing the mini-bowls in liquid nitrogen and then transferring the frozen wood to a vacuum chamber and maintaining it at less that 50-100 torr to sublimate the frozen water and remove it from the wood. The results were less than stellar. For wall thickness of about 3/8" or less, the wood seemed to apparently dry completely, but for wall thicknesses 3/8" to 3/4", there seemed to still be water present in the deepest parts of the side grain portions of the bowl; the end grain seemed to be fairly dry. This summer I will try some vacuum drying in a chamber I recently acquired, but this is more to experiment with potential reduction in shape distortion, as well as use of steamed & saturated wood to make some unusual shapes in thin-walled bowls. Given that using a lyophilizer might be considered the optimal freeze drying conditions under vacuum, I concluded it was not worth pursuing on a larger or "serious" scale. Some variation in freeze drying effectiveness also likely depends on what species of wood is used - i.e. open grain (ring-porous) versus closed grain (diffuse porous), presence of tyloses or not, relative areas of end-grain versus side grain in the shape of the piece, etc. beyond just wall thickness.

Given your suggestion of simply putting your rough-outs in the freezer, I speculate that you would be extending the drying time by leaps and bounds compared to ambient temperature drying. Sealing the entire blank in Anchorseal and then storing it in a freezer might result in 'suspended animation" where virtually no drying would occur at all. If you want to preserve the wet bowl for future turning, this would be OK, I guess, but there would still need to be a dry-down time after the subsequent turning, regardless. (You wouldn't likely be gaining much, if anything, with the freezer treatment) Freezing, itself, (i.e. -20^C) will not likely kill all of the fungi, and once the wood is warmed up and if still moist enough, the fungi will continue their gradual decay of the wood.

If you are worried about the spalting fungi continuing to degrade the rough-outs after they have been turned, one of the easiest ways to stop the fungal activity I have found is to soak the rough-out in denatured alcohol (methylated spirits for you Brits...) - not necessarily to speed up the drying, but more to kill any living fungi in situ so they do not continue to grow in your roughed bowls. This has worked for me for years - and I turn a fair amount of spalted wood. The piece below was turned from fresh cut river birch that spalted in the log sitting on my driveway for about 7 months. I rough turned the hollow form in one night, soaked it overnight in denatured alcohol, and then allowed it to dry for several months. No evidence of continued fungal growth was seen in the rough-out, even though the end-cut from the same log section had lots of fungal growth evident after just 2 days (this usually is observed as fuzzy white hyphae on the wood surface). I suggest you try this method and free-up the freezer for storage of something nutritious!

Good Luck!

Rob

Lines on Fire - 2013.jpg
 
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Has anyone had any success with freeze drying rough outs? Presently I am trying to get to a large amount of maple that has spalted and I worry it might go too far if I leave it any longer. I have a freezer partly full of chunks of maple but wonder what will happen if instead of boiling or/and sealing I just put the rough outs (bowls and hollow forms) in the freezer. I also considered coating either the end grain or the complete rough out with Anchorseal before placing in the freezer. Anyone tried this?

Haven't tried it as a drying method.

I freeze nice blanks to put them in a suspended state if drying. I wrap them in heavy trash bags to prevent the moisture loss in auto defrost cycle which would cause them to crack. Wood left in the freezer for years comes out like it went in.

Also,used it few times with large bowls and hollow forms I had to stop work on before I could hollow them. Wet them put them in thick plastic bags and freeze them. They keep indefinitely. For just a few hours or overnight I would just wet and bag them. When it might be a week the freezer.

Coating with anchor seal would be a lot like wrapping in plastic.

Al
 
Thanks Rob and Al. Seems as if there is some difference of opinion on the net. At present I am placing them in the freezer when I can't get to either finishing them of am delayed int the process. Al, what do you do once you take them out and finish or finish roughing them?

When I take them out I just prep the blank and turn it or if I suspended a process I pick up where I left off.
I use the freezing to suspend the drying of the wood.
If I am unusually organized I might set the wood out the night before so it is just wet and not cold.
The frozen wood cuts a tiny bit little harder.

Al
 
The way that I understood what Al said, freezing doesn't change anything -- it just puts things "on ice" so to speak. In other words, he tells the wood to chill out for a while and when he returns, things proceed as if no time had elapsed while the wood was chillin'.

The fact that the wood was frozen has no effect on how it needs to be dried.
 
Hey Al. I guess as usual I didn't explain my self. I meant to ask how you finish drying pieces once frozen?

I'm not explaining it well.
Like Bill said the freezing is like a time out.

If I have two hollow form blanks of green fresh cut wood two days old.
I wrap one in plastic and freeze it.
The other I turn. Dry in a box or bag for a day, sand and put on the first coat of finish.
Then I take a 2 months off
Take the blank out of the freezer, turn it, dry it in a box for a day and sand it and put the first finish coat on.
This is like turning the two day old wood because it was frozen for the two months.

If I had left the unturned hollow form blank sitting out for two months it would have cracked
If I had left it in a plastic bag unfrozen it would be rotten.
The freezer keeps it at near the moisture content it was when it went in.


Hope this is more clear.
Al
 
Absolutely Al, thanks.

I didn't understand that you turn to finish wet. I thought you might like a lot of us double turn and wondered if after freezing it was necessary to dry it any differently.

Thanks again for sharing.

If you rough turn something to 10% wall thickness and then let it dry before final turning, there is no point in freezing it after rough turning -- it doesn't buy you anything -- it would only delay the drying process.

It is possible that Al does rough turn and air dry some of his stuff before final turning, however, his reason for freezing relates to handling the wet wood before rough turning is completed.
 
Absolutely Al, thanks. I didn't understand that you turn to finish wet. I thought you might like a lot of us double turn and wondered if after freezing it was necessary to dry it any differently. Thanks again for sharing.

If you double turn it works similarly.

I turn a fresh cut blank to To a 14" diameter bowl with a 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 wall thickness. These I dry in a paper bags for a couple months then on a shelf for another 4-6 months until the moisture content is below 10%

If I has been in the freezer it still goes in the paper bags and then a on the shelf. I never measured the time to dry for the a frozen bowl.
I just figured it would be the same. When I lived in MD a lot of my wood got frozen in the winter just from being outside.


Al
 
Thanks Bill I did understand that from Al's last post.

It seems that the freezer might just save me when I can't get to all my wood at once so I was trying to determine if Al only does 'finish wet' work or does and double turned pieces and if so if it is just possible that the freezing (suspend animation) might have any effect on drying.

An example of this for me would be I boil a lot of my work and wondered, out loud, if I happen to freeze a piece and then turn it frozen should I thaw before boiling, place in water to thaw before boiling, place in cold water then bring to a boil or if he was doing anything different if the twice turned?

Thanks again for all the input.
 
... and wondered, out loud, if I happen to freeze a piece and then turn it frozen should I thaw before boiling, place in water to thaw before boiling, place in cold water then bring to a boil ......

Now you've gone from turning to cooking, so I can't offer any help. I can't boil water without scorching it. I do know that some boil-in-bag microwaveable food says not to thaw it before microwaving -- that is about the full extent of my knowledge of cooking. 😉
 
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