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For those who are currently doing piercing........

Odie

Odie

Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
TOTW Team
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
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Location
Missoula, MT
James is correct. Piercing is best performed with an air turbine handpiece turning in the range of 350K - 600K rpm.
 
Ditto on the high speed. I have tried piercing with dremels at 26k rpm and an air tubine at 56k rpm You fight the wood grain contantly wanting to pull the bit in the wrong direction. The NSK at 500k writes like a pencil grain direction doesn't matter.
However the 500k tools burn the wood leaving a black edge. If you have a delicate touch you can clean up the burn but it takes practice The slower tools do t burn the wood but can leave a fuzz that's hard to clean up.
Most people piercing use the 500k tools.
 
Decision Time

Base question is whether you have a compressor. Why? Because while the micro motors are nice, but the air-driven units,like NSK and Turbo-Crafter, are cheaper, produce less vibration, and do the same job.

I (f'instance) have a turbo-crafter. 400,000 rpm (I also have a Foredom flex shaft that's been used for carving details in wood, bronze, and Britannia for 50 years). Memsahibe "complained" that I was setting up a dental office. My response was "got cavities?"

Actually, I played with carving turnings several years ago and decided not to jump on that particular wagon. As a basic modeler (additive) my focus is not on carving small details just as I don't get involved with burning lines and such on the outside of a turning.

Before anyone gets into piercings (other than your nose, ears, or nipples) practice turning your wood to not more than 1/8 thickness, if not half that. Piercing little hole shapes in thick wood is a waste of time. While we all ("seriously, Mandell?") have a collection of tools we've bought on a whim and passing interest that now sit in some forgotten box or drawer, it's well that some experimentation be done before the buy.

I use the Turbo-Crafter to sign turnings and other wood projects. But if I'm gonna carve, I haul out the Austrian/German-forged gouges, the 3lb maul, and have at it.
god-squad.JPG
 
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Oldie, all posters so far have offered accurate information regarding the ability for the tools that you are considering (Packard catalog links) for piercing.

I have two powered tools with which I carve: the NSK Presto, which is air driven, and the NSK Evolution, which is electric. The Presto operates at 350,000 rpm, and holds 1/16 bits. The Evolution operates at 40,000 rpm, and will hold 5/32 and 1/8 bits. If comparing the two, I consider the Evolution to be the one to hog out material when power carving. I don't know at what point a bit will no longer want to follow the grain, but I can tell you that 40-50,000 rpm will not pierce wood effectively. You may be able to out muscle the pull, but you will never be able to get that very fine control that you seek in a pierced piece.

If you decide to take that plunge into a high-powered piercing tool, do your homework. There is a tool that operates at 350,000- 400,000 rpm, but needs oil (the name escapes me), and tends to spout that oil out onto your work. Not something that woodworkers/Woodturners desire. A Google search of high speed carving tools will give you a mountain of results that will aid in your decision.
 
odie said:
Either of these two units good for piercing?

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Mer...Store_Code=packard&Category_Code=carv-fore-mm

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Mer..._Code=packard&Category_Code=carv-master-micro

I don't see myself doing much piercing, but would like to give it a try.....never did it before.....
Click to expand...

No, not for any serious piercing -- the speed on those units are way too slow. You can get a better system for less money, but you will need to assemble it yourself. The core of what you need is a dental handpiece. Here is what I suggest: A two-hole 45° handpiece for maximum comfort, with ceramic bearings so that you do not need to lubricate the bearings, wrench type release for the burs (the push button release might not hold the bur well enough), and internal LED light for illuminating the work. They are in China and surprisingly delivery is very fast. I'll see if I can find the PDF that the president of our club put together for putting a system together. At the time, you could build a system for $100, but now it is more like $150. You will need burs and I will find out which ones are recommended. Some other things that you will need are a pressure regulator, coalescing five-micron filter, pneumatic switch, tubing and connector for the handpiece. The speed of the handpiece is about 300,000 RPM.
 
I started wit a Dremel but as soon as the NSK Presto reached my shop.... the Dremel is in the drawer. Expensive, but worth every penny. I buy my bits (169L tapered carbide) from Binh Pho, especially now that Treeline stopped carrying them. Binh's prices are as good as anyone else, plus if you buy them in person you get to pick his brain!
 
type of micro motor tool I use

Odie you asked what tool I use? It is the Optima-2-Plus- micro motor tool ($320.00), very similar to the foredom but runs at faster speeds up to 45,000 rpm's though I have never actually used it at it's highest speed. So far it has worked better than I had ever expected it will cut through wood much thicker than most think you need to. It has cut wood up to 1/8" to 3/16" thick Provided you use the right cutting bits which I have always gotten at Packard. (saw tooth drill bit set) $15.95 comes with a 3/32 bit and a 1/8" bit they fit standard collets of the same size. (These work on a limited budget that is not out of the ball park) If you have a larger budget then of course there are much better systems, but if you don't have the money this system works. check out my work posted here and it is not too bad.

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Mer...de=packard&Product_Code=309345&Category_Code=


http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/125/4741/Optima-2-Plus-Micro-Motor-Tool
 
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Donna Banfield said:
Oldie, all posters so far have offered accurate information regarding the ability for the tools that you are considering (Packard catalog links) for piercing.

I have two powered tools with which I carve: the NSK Presto, which is air driven, and the NSK Evolution, which is electric. The Presto operates at 350,000 rpm, and holds 1/16 bits. The Evolution operates at 40,000 rpm, and will hold 5/32 and 1/8 bits. If comparing the two, I consider the Evolution to be the one to hog out material when power carving. I don't know at what point a bit will no longer want to follow the grain, but I can tell you that 40-50,000 rpm will not pierce wood effectively. You may be able to out muscle the pull, but you will never be able to get that very fine control that you seek in a pierced piece.

If you decide to take that plunge into a high-powered piercing tool, do your homework. There is a tool that operates at 350,000- 400,000 rpm, but needs oil (the name escapes me), and tends to spout that oil out onto your work. Not something that woodworkers/Woodturners desire. A Google search of high speed carving tools will give you a mountain of results that will aid in your decision.
Click to expand...

Hello Donna......regarding "hogging"......can you give me a mental picture of what the lower rpm unit can do that the higher rpm can't?

Breck Whitworth said:
Odie you asked what tool I use? It is the Optima-2-Plus- micro motor tool ($320.00), very similar to the foredom but runs at faster speeds up to 45,000 rpm's though I have never actually used it at it's highest speed. So far it has worked better than I had ever expected it will cut through wood much thicker than most think you need to. It has cut wood up to 1/8" to 3/16" thick Provided you use the right cutting bits which I have always gotten at Packard. (saw tooth drill bit set) $15.95 comes with a 3/32 bit and a 1/8" bit they fit standard collets of the same size. (These work on a limited budget that is not out of the ball park) If you have a larger budget then of course there are much better systems, but if you don't have the money this system works. check out my work posted here and it is not too bad.

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Mer...de=packard&Product_Code=309345&Category_Code=


http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/125/4741/Optima-2-Plus-Micro-Motor-Tool
Click to expand...

Hi Breck......thanks for responding.

It was your piercing that I was looking at when I thought I'd like to try it. I do have some budget considerations......but, the end result is more important than the initial expense. From what I'm reading here, those units I put up for consideration and the Optima aren't nearly enough rpm to overcome the drawbacks of these lower speed units. I do think your work is exceptionally well done, regardless.

The NSK unit looks good.......


Scott Hackler said:
I started wit a Dremel but as soon as the NSK Presto reached my shop.... the Dremel is in the drawer. Expensive, but worth every penny. I buy my bits (169L tapered carbide) from Binh Pho, especially now that Treeline stopped carrying them. Binh's prices are as good as anyone else, plus if you buy them in person you get to pick his brain!
Click to expand...

Hello Scott.....you are one whom I've admired your sense of form, and your style....as I do Breck's work. Would like to see more of your work in the galleries, and your input on these forums more often. I am well aware of Binh Pho's work.....absolutely incredible! Does he use the NSK?

Can you give your opinions as to just what is the advantages of the 169L carbide bits over other carbide bits, please?

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far......

ooc
 
odie said:
......regarding "hogging"......can you give me a mental picture of what the lower rpm unit can do that the higher rpm can't?
Click to expand...

Think "torque" and actual carving rather than poking small holes in the wood. The electrically powered micro motor and flex-shaft machines have far more power to drive heavy-cutting burrs; my 30,000 rpm Foredom will take burr shafts up to 1/4" with carbide carving burr shapes. With flex shafts you also can also use reciprocating hand-pieces and Flex-cut blades which will open a whole new world of tools for you. The hyper-speed air turbines have very little torque (you can stall the bit easily), use a very limited range of burr shapes, and are mostly useless for wood carving because the burrs are so small. Keep in mind as well that highly resinous woods like tropicals and exotics will tend to clog the burrs very quickly at hyper speeds. They are a pain to keep cleaning.

You can get a sense of the differences by going to a woodcarver's supply. Since that may be a little hard to find up there under the Big Sky, take a look at this website

http://www.woodcarverssupply.com/home.asp

Lastly, you want to remember that working with these tools produces a lot of extremely fine dust so you need breathing protection and well as some kind of dust collection running.

PS: Some of the air turbine units are oil free, some are not. Be careful to check which is which. Note also that air powered turbines, oil-lubed or not, do ware out and need to be replaced; they're not cheap, but make sure that parts are readily available. If you're looking at actual dental equipment, you'll be dealing with oil-free or sealed bearing units because they have to be autoclaved between uses.
 
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Retouched Image.jpg

IMG_0216.jpg

This started as a thin walled green cherry platter, 11" diameter. I did a workshop with Michael Kehs 3 years ago, and have been working on this for at least 2 years. Close to being finished. The outline of the leaves was carved, or cut away using the Evolution electric carver. The veins and fine detail was done using the Presto air driven carver.
 
Donna Banfield said:
View attachment 7873

View attachment 7874

This started as a thin walled green cherry platter, 11" diameter. I did a workshop with Michael Kehs 3 years ago, and have been working on this for at least 2 years. Close to being finished. The outline of the leaves was carved, or cut away using the Evolution electric carver. The veins and fine detail was done using the Presto air driven carver.
Click to expand...

Donna, are you telling that you don't just knock these out in a weekend? 😉

Very nice BTW
 
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Pete Blair said:
Odie, I have the NSK as well and really like it. Pricy! I am in the process of adding one of the cheaper high speed ones from ebay but as noted they apparently need to be oiled regularly. Cap't Eddy has a great video on piercing on the 'cheap'!
Click to expand...

The Turbo Crafter II (450k rpm) that I use is oil free, so the oil drops, mist, and such on the wood are avoided.
 
odie said:
Does all the dental angle air drills, such as the McEvoy units, need lubrication?

ooc
Click to expand...

His stuff is very expensive compared to getting exactly the same items for 25% to 35% of his prices brand new on eBay. Also the hand pieces that he sells are uncomfortable to use for any length of time because of the low angle.A hand piece that can be held like a writing instrument would be much better. Hand pieces with ceramic bearings do not need lubrication and the standard bearings do need to be oiled.

The tools that run at 45000 RPM and slower are carving tools and have the torque needed to hog out wood. Piercing tools operate in the 200K to 400K RPM speed range and aren't really the right choice if you are looking for something to do relief type carving. Piercing tools are mainly used to punch holes in thinly turned wood to create decorative patterns such as what Binh Pho does. The advantage of the high speed dental type tools is that you can use them without getting pulled off course by the grain pattern.
 
Cannot respond to the lube issue. I got the Captn Eddie solution. This is a NSK right angle unit for under $20. I have not lubed it and have done 2 pieces so far. Everything else is good advise. A friend here does a lot and said my unit is more comfortable than the straight pencil type. To clean the bit he told me Ben used a brass brush attached to the regulator. Another burr B P uses is the 699. Can also get burrs at Gold Burrs ( look on the web).
This is a cheap way to start and you can get another handpiece as a backup. May use 2 or 3 bits per bowl depending on size of piercing.
 
odie said:
....

Hello Scott.....you are one whom I've admired your sense of form, and your style....as I do Breck's work. Would like to see more of your work in the galleries, and your input on these forums more often. I am well aware of Binh Pho's work.....absolutely incredible! Does he use the NSK?

Can you give your opinions as to just what is the advantages of the 169L carbide bits over other carbide bits, please?

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far......

ooc
Click to expand...

Odie,

Binh uses the NSK too and sells them and the bits. I bought my last batch of bits from him. He also favors the 169L for a lot of his work and I do as well. I don't know, off hand, what the other bit's model numbers are that I have.....but I just use the 169L. It is a tapered fissure carbide cutter and it's longer than normal. I like the bit because of a couple reasons: 1) its a carbide CUTTER, not a burr. Burrs clog almost instantly from the high speed and heat 2) the cutter is in a spiral down to the tip and I believe that improves cleaning 3) because its tapered the entry point is very small and you have some control over the width of the piercing. I also favor the tapered aspect because the inside of the vessels are smaller than the outside and by piercing the outside the holes are tapered a tiny bit as well. For pieces that are enclosed, it doesn't matter that much, but if the inside walls can be seen clearly... the spacing between the lines will be more even.

Just my observations. The 169L can be bout for $1.40-$1.75 ish when bought in person or in bulk.

Scott
 
Scott Hackler said:
Odie,

Binh uses the NSK too and sells them and the bits. I bought my last batch of bits from him. He also favors the 169L for a lot of his work and I do as well. I don't know, off hand, what the other bit's model numbers are that I have.....but I just use the 169L. It is a tapered fissure carbide cutter and it's longer than normal. I like the bit because of a couple reasons: 1) its a carbide CUTTER, not a burr. Burrs clog almost instantly from the high speed and heat 2) the cutter is in a spiral down to the tip and I believe that improves cleaning 3) because its tapered the entry point is very small and you have some control over the width of the piercing. I also favor the tapered aspect because the inside of the vessels are smaller than the outside and by piercing the outside the holes are tapered a tiny bit as well. For pieces that are enclosed, it doesn't matter that much, but if the inside walls can be seen clearly... the spacing between the lines will be more even.

Just my observations. The 169L can be bout for $1.40-$1.75 ish when bought in person or in bulk.

Scott
Click to expand...

Thank you for the reply, Scott......

Your in-depth thoughts and observations are points to consider, for sure.

I think Binh Pho's endorsement is as good as it gets.

After having used air powered tools at the lathe that required oil, I'm aware of how frustrating it is for oil to be on your turning. Oil-less is a necessity if the choice is at all possible. NSK fulfills that need.

I'll remember this thread and am putting the NSK on the list of things to get when the expense is more appropriate for my budget restrictions.

ooc
 
Pete Blair said:
Hey Odie.
Not sure if they are as good as others but I found the FG 169L on Amazon for $63.00 per 100 cutters including shipping. I am of course not as experienced as the others who have replied but these appear to be at least similar to the more costly ones.
Click to expand...

That is the same bur that Scott mentioned. The FG is frequently omitted from the part number. The "L" stands for "long" which is what you would want for piercing. The price is always better when buying them in quantities that are multiples of a hundred. Ebay stores are likely to have the best prices. I don't think that the quality is an issue since they are all supposed to be suitable for dental use.
 
Thanks for this information, Pete and Bill.......

How much use can these carbide cutters take, before it's time to replace?

I'll remember this thread, and will refer back to it when I'm ready to take the plunge! 😀

ooc
 
odie said:
Thanks for this information, Pete and Bill.......

How much use can these carbide cutters take, before it's time to replace?

I'll remember this thread, and will refer back to it when I'm ready to take the plunge! 😀

ooc
Click to expand...

Well, they go until they break. 🙂. What I mean is that you will usually break a bur before it wears out. They are very fragile when running at such extremely high speeds as these dental high speed air turbines run. BTW, if you but a dental hand piece, make sure that it is a high speed unit. There are some that aren't.
 
Bill Boehme said:
Well, they go until they break. 🙂. What I mean is that you will usually break a bur before it wears out. They are very fragile when running at such extremely high speeds as these dental high speed air turbines run. BTW, if you but a dental hand piece, make sure that it is a high speed unit. There are some that aren't.
Click to expand...

OK, will do, Bill......

ooc
 
Bill is right about the longevity of the bits. They last a long time and I usually replace mine either after they break (which is quite a long time) or when I just feel like its not quite cutting well anymore. You can tell. I know Binh buzzes a brass rod or something to clean his bits, but I just have an el cheapo toothbrush sized steel brush and with the turbine off, I brush it across the steel brush and it's clean again.

That is a great price on the 169L, but wow..it would take a long time to work through 100 of them!
 
Micro Pro Unit

I have been using the Micro Pro unit for over a year and, so far, so good. Seems to offer good service for the price.

Ward
 
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