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Fluteless gouges

robo hippy said:
I love this tool, and most who have them don't understand all they can do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suRxCxdMn4k

robo hippy
Click to expand...

I've seen the video. Very nice and informative but I would like to know if you remove the burr or leave it. It seems to me that when you are cutting rubbing the bevel the burr is just disturbing but it will be the cutting edge when you use the tool as a shear scraper.
Thanks
 
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Thanks Reed. Very informative. As usual, your videos are excellent!
I do have a Thompson fluteless gouge that I use just like my bowl gouges, and sharpen it the same way (swept back wings and all). I'm going to give your method a go.
 
I do leave the burr on. I grind with the CBN wheels (D Way) and they leave a much better burr than standard wheels.

MM, it is a specialized tool. General use tools do have their uses, and can do a lot of things well, but the specialized tools do out perform the general use tools in their specific areas.

robo hippy
 
Specialized for a job which does not require a special tool, really. I own enough one-trick ponies already, and have learned to avoid the rush to own the professed latest and best. Last time that ever paid off bigtime was when I turned in the Masterchuck for the Nova, which was brand new at the time.
 
Most bowls I do with two tools
Bowl gouge with Ellsworth grind 99%.

Spindle gouge with fingernail grind to refine the chuck tenon, turn any beads on the outside, and to finish the bottom when reversed.

Once in a while I will use a round nose scraper (which could be flute less gouge with a steep grind) if I need to tweak the bottom inside surface.
 
Al, when you use the round nose scraper in the bottom of the bowl, are you scraping or shear cutting?

For my bowls, I use a scraper for all roughing cuts, a fingernail grind gouge for the outside finish cuts, and a swept back scraper for shear cuts. On the inside, again the scraper for any heavy stock removal, a finger nail gouge for finishing the walls, and several different bottom feeder types for the transition and bottom. I do shear scrape to remove tool marks.

robo hippy
 
For steep sided bowls you have to change tools. I use a bowl gouge with a 55 degree grind for most bowls but when I have a deep steep sided bowl or a closed rim bowl I switch to a Hunter #5. I used to use another bowl gouge with a tip grind of about 70 degrees.
Occasionally I use a round nose scraper in shear scraping fashion to get rid of lumps from less than perfect bowl gouge use. Like Al I use a detail gouge to turn beads and clean up the foot on the bottom.
I often use a pull cut when turning the outside from foot to rim and you can't cut the first 1/2" at a shear angle so it's not always as clean as I like. In those instances I will use the Detail gouge which has a 35 degree grind or in really problem instances I use the toe of my skew which is usually ground sharper.
 
robo hippy said:
Al, when you use the round nose scraper in the bottom of the bowl, are you scraping or shear cutting?

robo hippy
Click to expand...

I recently turned two 16"dia blanks into natural edge bowls. From both halves of a crotch. With the Ellsworth gouge.
My finish cut on the outside is a shear cut with the handle down cutting on the wing I pull this when the bowl is between centers and then push it to true the bowl in the chuck. ( may be similar to what John described)
In the chuck I use the tailstock as I work the wall until I am past the bark edges then take it away.

Working the wall on the inside I use bevel riding push cuts to get the wall close then use a shear cut with the flute up. This cut can be use as an entry cut on an interrupted surface.
I just repeat this cut to establish the wall thickness down the side in 1-2" increments.

On one bowl I finished the inside bottom with the Ellsworth gouge just fine.
On the second I left some bumps near the bottom center.. This part is a bit tricky as there is lot of tool over the tool rest, the grain is a bit twisty, and I was getting some drag on the bevel.
I made a couple of passes with the gouge trying to cut off the bumps. I improved them a bit but the gouge did not want to stop cutting coming through the bump.
Still have something like the top of a doughnut in the bottom of the bowl.
I did not want to keep cutting and make the bottom too thin. Could probably sand the bottom smooth with 120 but I might make an uneven surface sanding.

So I use the round nose scraper flat on the rest nose down a bit in a sweeping motion with the lathe at a reduced speed.
Worked an area from close to center out about 2-3" until it has a nice flow into the bottom.

I don't do any shear scraping inside the natural edge bowls.

Al
 
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Yea, those ripples on the bottom. I have found that the fluteless gouge, or other bottom feeder types of gouges work fine. Main thing is to have a steeper bevel angle. That is why I prefer the 70 degree bevel. It can get into just about any bowl transition. Also, you have to remember to keep your handle angle constant, which is easier to do if you move with your body and not your arms. We do tend to think that the shaving should be the same size through out the cut. With a bump, you start off with a very thin hair shaving, it gets a bit bigger, then it tapers off again. It is that 'feeling the cut' idea. Took me a while to figure out that I was moving with my body when going down the side and through the transition, and then was pushing with my arms rather than continuing the body movement across the bottom.

robo hippy
 
robo hippy said:
Yea, those ripples on the bottom. I have found that the fluteless gouge, or other bottom feeder types of gouges work fine. Main thing is to have a steeper bevel angle. That is why I prefer the 70 degree bevel. It can get into just about any bowl transition. Also, you have to remember to keep your handle angle constant, which is easier to do if you move with your body and not your arms. We do tend to think that the shaving should be the same size through out the cut. With a bump, you start off with a very thin hair shaving, it gets a bit bigger, then it tapers off again. It is that 'feeling the cut' idea. Took me a while to figure out that I was moving with my body when going down the side and through the transition, and then was pushing with my arms rather than continuing the body movement across the bottom.

robo hippy
Click to expand...

Not ripples. Or washboard. These are generally caused by not riding the bevel and cutting with the nose. The gouge cuts in along the bevel. The brain pulls it back.
Causing the ripples.
The 70 degree gouge will do the trick but doesn't leave as clean a surface as the shear cut.
The shear cut has a near vertical bevel support so it can work to the bottom of bowls a bit deeper than hemispherical.
Your advice is pretty much the way I recommend using the tools.
Also a bit of chalk on the high spots and cut off the chalk.

I don't often miss getting a smooth with the Ellsworth ground gouge so I don't usually use a a scraper at all.
When id do miss it is because I lose a bit of control when the cutting edge overhangs the tool rest 4-6" on larger bowls and I lose the consistent depth of cut leaving a slight wave in the surface.
What I need is the focus and discipline to make these last finish cuts across the bottom in 5 passes instead of 3.
The lighter cuts are easier to control when the cut is long way from the the tool rest support.
 
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The 70 degree gouge will do the trick but doesn't leave as clean a surface as the shear cut.

Now, for shear cut, are you talking rubbing the bevel or not rubbing. This is the advantage to the almost no sweep nose profile on the fluteless gouge. You can roll it up to a 70 degree shear angle and still rub the bevel. Agreed that when you come off the bevel, the tool is almost impossible to control for a smooth cut, as it becomes more of a scrape than a cut. The interesting thing about MM's cuts with the continental/broad sweep gouge is that it does pretty much the same thing, but his cut is not bevel rubbing, which makes it more of a shear scrape. I do prefer to rub the bevel as it makes the cut easier to control. Add to this that I don't consider a 'shear scrape' a scraping cut. Scrape is cutting edge at 90 degrees to the rotation of the wood. When at an angle, it isn't a scrape. Bevel rubbing or not doesn't change the results. We need a new name for that cut........

I am wondering also why you are hanging out so far off the tool rest. I prefer the curved rests if for no other reason than they keep your tool over hang to a minimum. I still don't think there is one made the way I would make it. Those that start the curve right on the post do get in the way of making a cut from rim to bottom of the bowl.

I love how these threads seem to diverge off the original topic....

robo hippy
 
For the shear cut the support comes from the bevel floating over he surface just cut. The gouge is level, flute straight up, the cut occurs on the leading edge of the wing.
The bevel doesn't rub as bevel pressure increases the depth of cut. The cut can be rolled into by putting the heel of the nose bevel on the wood and rolling the the flute to vertical keeping the bevel on the wood.

This is a cut best learned from a tutor

The curved rests I have used tend to hit the handle and get in my way more than they'd help me.
So I use a straight rest. on a 15-16" natural edge bowl the banjo has to sit back to miss the rims of the bowl.
Using the shear cut to the bottom the tool is on the rest a couple inches past the tool post so it gets to be a long overhang.
A long overhang is never a good thing. Some tools and cuts can't work more than an inch or two over the tool rest.

Usually with a light cut and sharp tool the cut is controllable.
Shifting to a push cut can shorten the overhang

A nice thing about using this finish cut is that the the push cut using the right wing sets it up is I'm not dulling my finish edge removing wood to make the finish cut.

Al
 
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Al,
It sounds like you are using pretty much a standard bottom feeder type gouge: flute shape like a SRG, rather C shaped, little sweep, and a blunt nose angle. The more parabolic shaped flutes don't work well for this cut. Over the years I have developed the habit of ALWAYS rolling the gouge on its side, and never cutting with the flutes straight up. Main reason for this was that I tended to get on the uphill side of the flute/wings for the shear cut, which would unbalance the tool, and it wanted to roll into the cut with a catch. The shear angle was also pretty minimal. This rolling is less of a problem when going across the bottom than it is when going down the side of a bowl and through the transition. By rolling the gouge onto the side (I do hold it pretty much level by the way), you get a higher shear angle. Same bevel rub as you do. Using an old quote from some one unknown, "the bevel should rub the wood, but the wood should not know it". With the more C shaped flute, you also have a smaller 'sweet spot' for cutting than you do with a ) shaped flute.

I do hope you are in Phoenix next summer.

robo hippy
 
robo hippy said:
Al,
It sounds like you are using pretty much a standard bottom feeder type gouge: flute shape like a SRG, rather C shaped, little sweep, and a blunt nose angle. The more parabolic shaped flutes don't work well for this cut. Over the years I have developed the habit of ALWAYS rolling the gouge on its side, and never cutting with the flutes straight up. Main reason for this was that I tended to get on the uphill side of the flute/wings for the shear cut, which would unbalance the tool, and it wanted to roll into the cut with a catch. The shear angle was also pretty minimal. This rolling is less of a problem when going across the bottom than it is when going down the side of a bowl and through the transition. By rolling the gouge onto the side (I do hold it pretty much level by the way), you get a higher shear angle. Same bevel rub as you do. Using an old quote from some one unknown, "the bevel should rub the wood, but the wood should not know it". With the more C shaped flute, you also have a smaller 'sweet spot' for cutting than you do with a ) shaped flute.

I do hope you are in Phoenix next summer.

robo hippy
Click to expand...

I plan to be in Phoenix

I'm using a parabolic flute. This is an advance Ellsworth cut. You can see it on his videos.
The parabolic flute/Ellsworth flute does this cut quite well. It is important not to roll the edge over when grinding

It can be tricky to learn.
I have the tool level, cutting at center.
One problem I had in the beginning was holding the tool to tight. It has to turn a bit as you go down the side wall.

This cut is excellent for the inside of natural edge bowls as it can be used as an entry cut to get a smooth surface from the rim.
It lets you cut quite this too as there,is not pressure on the wood to make it vibrate.

The bevel riding push cut is much easier to learn. For that the flute can point up about 45 degrees.

FOX news in Tampa did a promotion for the AAW symposium. At the very end they have a cool shot of the gouge in the shear cut position looking through the bottom of the bowl. It was on the AAW Facebook It think this link will get you there.
Right about 2:39 of the 2:41 video clip you can see one cut flute up as i begin to set the wall thickness. All the other cuts are are bevel riding push cuts.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IZjqN34Wq0E&feature=c4-feed-u
 
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