Flame Out! Pedestal bowl

[Roger Chandler]

This pedestal bowl is from box elder maple.......11.5" wide and 6.5" tall. I like the flames, but could have done without the bark inclusion. I turned another one off at the rim area, or this would have been an even larger bowl. I am fond of pedestal pieces, as I think they are good for display and add visual interest to a number of forms.

Comments welcome!

 

[John Torchick]

Beautiful! I love the colors and grain. I have to agree with your idea of a pedestal piece. I feel that the pedestal gives the piece a dimensional appearance.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Beautiful piece of wood and very nice work. Personally, I would have preferred a simpler form because it seems like the beautiful wood is fighting for attention with the ornate shape. But then, that's just my thought for what it's worth. Lately I have been leaning towards the idea that less is more after having gone a bit overboard on bling.

 

[Roger Chandler]

Beautiful piece of wood and very nice work. Personally, I would have preferred a simpler form because it seems like the beautiful wood is fighting for attention with the ornate shape. But then, that's just my thought for what it's worth. Lately I have been leaning towards the idea that less is more after having gone a bit overboard on bling.

Beautiful wood...........+1/win................very nice work/ornate shape.........+1/win .......hummmm............win + win = win/win...........hummm........sounds okay to me Bill! 😀

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Beautiful wood...........+1/win................very nice work/ornate shape.........+1/win .......hummmm............win + win = win/win...........hummm........sounds okay to me Bill! 😀

Hey Roger, +1 all around from me too. I love the color too. So how did you achieve it?

Mark

 

[Mark Mandell]

More used to seeing the trophy bowl form in silver or glass. The color does a lot for the piece. Unfortunately it doesn't last very long as those phenol reds are pretty fragile compounds and will degrade to browns with little urging.

You can give your piece a longer color life by replacing the natural coloring with metalized dyes such as those made by Homestead Finishing (TransTint) and J.E. Moser. This is what Binh Pho does with his box elder pieces.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

bring it to fisherville in September Roger, keep it out of sunlight til them, bag it

outstanding flame

 

[Mark Hepburn]

More used to seeing the trophy bowl form in silver or glass. The color does a lot for the piece. Unfortunately it doesn't last very long as those phenol reds are pretty fragile compounds and will degrade to browns with little urging.

You can give your piece a longer color life by replacing the natural coloring with metalized dyes such as those made by Homestead Finishing (TransTint) and J.E. Moser. This is what Bin Pho does with his box elder pieces.

Mark,

I was lucky to see Bin Pho's exhibit in Philadelphia at the Center for Art in Woodworking. Amazing work and the color truly vibrant. I've not worked with the dyes and will research, but are these something that can be used as one would in painting (brushed, blended, feathered, etc.) or is it more of a wipe-on product?

thanks,

Mark

 

[Mark Mandell]

Mark,

I was lucky to see Bin Pho's exhibit in Philadelphia at the Center for Art in Woodworking. Amazing work and the color truly vibrant. I've not worked with the dyes and will research, but are these something that can be used as one would in painting (brushed, blended, feathered, etc.) or is it more of a wipe-on product?

thanks,

Mark

They are alcohol soluble dyes that you apply like ink or paint. I use very small quality brushes. Binh, I believe uses both brushes and an air brush. He does give classes so if you get the chance, by all means take one.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

They are alcohol soluble dyes that you apply like ink or paint. I use very small quality brushes. Binh, I believe uses both brushes and an air brush. He does give classes so if you get the chance, by all means take one.

View attachment 7549View attachment 7550

That's some beautiful work, Mark. I would like to take a class with him one of these days. At the center, along with a lot of his work, was a nice long video showing him creating a piece from start to finish. Some of the tools were quite unusual compared to what I'm familiar with, and he was fascinating to watch.

I have a bunch of sable rounds and brights, some camel hair and so on. Used them back in my oil days. How would those work do you think? The brushes are quite soft.

Mark

 

[Roger Chandler]

More used to seeing the trophy bowl form in silver or glass. The color does a lot for the piece. Unfortunately it doesn't last very long as those phenol reds are pretty fragile compounds and will degrade to browns with little urging.

You can give your piece a longer color life by replacing the natural coloring with metalized dyes such as those made by Homestead Finishing (TransTint) and J.E. Moser. This is what Binh Pho does with his box elder pieces.

Thanks for the tip, Mark! I have some red transtint.......never tried the brushing on, but that sounds like a plan.......on the next piece I might have to give that a go!

 

[Mark Mandell]

That's some beautiful work, Mark. I would like to take a class with him one of these days. At the center, along with a lot of his work, was a nice long video showing him creating a piece from start to finish. Some of the tools were quite unusual compared to what I'm familiar with, and he was fascinating to watch.

I have a bunch of sable rounds and brights, some camel hair and so on. Used them back in my oil days. How would those work do you think? The brushes are quite soft.

Mark

Sable will do fine but you need sharp points in order to keep control of the alcohol-thin dye. As the phenols in a piece can break down while you're turning, you'd do well to take pix of the coloring as you turn so that you'll have a reference when you go to restore the colors after the piece is dry, sanded, and ready for finishing. I've had BE that looked like it was bleeding when first cut but the following day lost 90% of its color.

Note too, that it's the reds that will break down. Spalt lines, browns, and blue staining will be durable although I will sometimes kick up the blues and browns for a counterpoint to the reds. Since the dye reds will have a lot of visual punch, you should approach them in multiple layered applications so you can keep control of the color vibrance or they will overpower everything else.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Sable will do fine but you need sharp points in order to keep control of the alcohol-thin dye. As the phenols in a piece can break down while you're turning, you'd do well to take pix of the coloring as you turn so that you'll have a reference when you go to restore the colors after the piece is dry, sanded, and ready for finishing. I've had BE that looked like it was bleeding when first cut but the following day lost 90% of its color.

Note too, that it's the reds that will break down. Spalt lines, browns, and blue staining will be durable although I will sometimes kick up the blues and browns for a counterpoint to the reds. Since the dye reds will have a lot of visual punch, you should approach them in multiple layered applications so you can keep control of the color vibrance or they will overpower everything else.

Got it Mark. Thanks again. Sounds a lot like washes in water colors.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Got it Mark. Thanks again. Sounds a lot like washes in water colors.

That's correct

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Bin Pho

Mark,

I was lucky to see Bin Pho's exhibit in Philadelphia at the Center for Art in Woodworking. Amazing work and the color truly vibrant. I've not worked with the dyes and will research, but are these something that can be used as one would in painting (brushed, blended, feathered, etc.) or is it more of a wipe-on product?

thanks,

Mark

Mark , We had Bin at our club a few years ago and most of the coloring he did was with air brush. You might call that part of the demo airbrush. He used flat pieces with carving by craft knife to color and spray pattern. Actually it was like painting a portrait with air brush. I think the story is something he learned in the airbrush booths similar to the fairs. He has excellent control and very good at explaining the what and how to.
I did not make notes and cannot remember the finishes he used. My wife and I saw his show in Mobile. Very impressive.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Thanks for the information, Mark. I have a beautiful BE bowl where the red all but disappeared. Even so, the tans and browns still give it a marble look. It hasn't been finished yet because I have been debating whether to use TransTint dye. I need to educate myself on brushes first or else I can see a potential mess.

 

[hockenbery]

This pedestal bowl is from box elder maple.......11.5" wide and 6.5" tall. I like the flames, but could have done without the bark inclusion. I turned another one off at the rim area, or this would have been an even larger bowl. I am fond of pedestal pieces, as I think they are good for display and add visual interest to a number of forms. Comments welcome! <img src="http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7540"/> <img src="http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7541"/>

Roger,

A nice bowl that would look good painted black.

The reds will fade. The form will still be there.

The profile is great. Can't comment on the rim or wall thickness.


Al

 

[Roger Chandler]

Roger,

A nice bowl that would look good painted black.

The reds will fade. The form will still be there.

The profile is great. Can't comment on the rim or wall thickness.


Al

That would look good, Al.....thanks for the suggestion. The wall thickness goes to about 1/4" at the bottom and as you can see fades to a thinner rim.

 

[Gretch Flo]

So- are the really "tongued" red ones caused by the ambrosia beetle??? I am just finishing a bowl now and have the beetle marks and some of the tongues that that beetle makes on other maples . I see in 2 of the specimens in this post have beetle holes. I enclose 2 photos of Road kill finds (actually people this spring cleaning up ice storm damage from dec storm. Found some neat wood at this curb!! Gretch dumpster diving again.

Gretch

 

[Mark Mandell]

So- are the really "tongued" red ones caused by the ambrosia beetle??? I am just finishing a bowl now and have the beetle marks and some of the tongues that that beetle makes on other maples . I see in 2 of the specimens in this post have beetle holes. I enclose 2 photos of Road kill finds (actually people this spring cleaning up ice storm damage from dec storm. Found some neat wood at this curb!! Gretch dumpster diving again.View attachment 7554View attachment 7555

Gretch

Same bug. The difference is the soft maple (Box Elder) tree's reaction to the fungus. The B-E produces phenol red in reaction to the injury rather than the more durable blues and browns of the hard (sugar) maple. This is the reason the color in the B-E doesn't last. Phenols are easily broken down, especially by UV or infrared light.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have some FBE where I do not see any indications of borers -- could be that I just didn't look close enough and maybe the tree goes crazy with the red phenol whatchamacallit at the slightest indication of ambrosia fungus. I recently read a paper on the etiology of the red stain that I think is worth sharing: http://www.forestpathology.cfans.umn.edu/pdf/morse.pdf

BTW, the above referenced paper talks about red in the sapwood of box elder, but I have seen it in heartwood and here is a picture that I found that also show it in heartwood.

I have been wondering whether it is really UV radiation or oxidation that causes the color to fade or perhaps light acting as a catalyst for oxidation. Is UV light sufficient by itself to break down the phenols (if that is what the red actually is)? I've tried with reasonable success to avoid organic chemistry since college.

Somebody on another forum claimed that CA is effective at preserving the red color. Most other have ridiculed that idea. I have no idea, but I did turn a FBE vase and finished it with CA. If nothing else, the CA seems to have brightened the red more than lacquer does. I suppose that I could watch it for a few years to compare it against a couple FBE vases from Kevin Bassett that I have.

 

[Bill Boehme]

There is also a post on Wood Central several years ago by the late Russ Fairfield concerning the red color where he believed that there were at least two different types of red staining: http://www.woodcentral.com/woodworking/forum/archives_turning.pl/bid/2107/md/read/id/158830/sbj/etiology-of-red-stain-in-boxelder/

From the pictures that I have seen by Kevin Jaynes (a BE guru) on WoodBarter, I would have to agree with what Russ Fairfield observed.

 

[hockenbery]

I have some FBE where I do not see ant indications of borers -- could be that I just didn't look close enough and maybe the tree goes crazy with the red phenol whatchamacallit at the slightest indication of ambrosia fungus. I recently read a paper on the etiology of the red stain that I think is worth sharing: http://www.forestpathology.cfans.umn.edu/pdf/morse.pdf I have been wondering whether it is really UV radiation or oxidation that causes the color to fade or perhaps light acting as a catalyst for oxidation. I've tried with reasonable success to avoid organic chemistry since college. Somebody on another forum claimed that CA is effective at preserving the red color. Most other have ridiculed that idea. I have no idea, but I did turn a FBE vase and finished it with CA. If nothing else, the CA seems to have brightened the red more than lacquer does. I suppose that I could watch it for a few years to compare it against a couple FBE vases from Kevin Bassett that I have.

In large trees the box elder beetle has an entry and exit hole making a pair of holes like there is in ambrosia maple.
fluids carry the red stain up and down from the holes a couple of feet of more.

Also one of the most colorful BE I got was one scarred rather badly around the base when a house was built.
When the wind blew it down some 15 years later it was full of red. Not sure if beetles had much to do with that red. The wounds provided the entry .

Uv inhibitors seem to keep the red red longer.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Several other research papers cite the work done by Morse and Blanchette on the etiology of the red staining, but apparently nobody other than woodturners have much interest in the subject because I have not found any subsequent studies that corroborates their findings or studies to ascertain the chemical composition of the red stain.

 

[Mark Mandell]

As I appeared in the WoodCentral thread linked, I'll pass along a bit more information obtained since then.

I have a close friend who is a PHD senior research micro-biologist with a Big Pharma company here in New Jersey. I gave him a sample of red-stained B-E to run through his lab hoping to find a way to preserve the red color. He and his staff put the stuff through their testing protocols and gave me back the bad news that there's no way to preserve the red because it is a "phenol" compound that is a very fragile chemical composition which will break down (or oxidize) with very little energy input. Phenols are widely used as indicator fluids because of their sensitivity to color change.

Yes, a UV blocker can extend B-E's color a bit, but heat will also degrade it.

I was looking for a compound that would act as a preservative for the natural red staining. Unfortunately, "can't get there from here" was the lab's answer.

 

[hockenbery]

As I appeared in the WoodCentral thread linked, I'll pass along a bit more information obtained since then. I have a close friend who is a PHD senior research micro-biologist with a Big Pharma company here in New Jersey. I gave him a sample of red-stained B-E to run through his lab hoping to find a way to preserve the red color. He and his staff put the stuff through their testing protocols and gave me back the bad news that there's no way to preserve the red because it is a "phenol" compound that is a very fragile chemical composition which will break down (or oxidize) with very little energy input. Phenols are widely used as indicator fluids because of their sensitivity to color change. Yes, a UV blocker can extend B-E's color a bit, but heat will also degrade it. I was looking for a compound that would act as a preservative for the natural red staining. Unfortunately, "can't get there from here" was the lab's answer.

Mark,
Thanks, for that information...
Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

?.. He and his staff put the stuff through their testing protocols and gave me back the bad news that there's no way to preserve the red because it is a "phenol" compound that is a very fragile chemical composition which will break down (or oxidize) with very little energy input...

Since you used the word oxidize, I would presume that energy in the form of heat or light is the trigger (catalyst) that starts the reaction with oxygen. Since dry wood is full of air (part of which is oxygen), any film finish is nothing more than a window pane. This makes me curious about what the result would be for a process that removes most of the air such as Curtis Seebeck's Cactus Juice in a vacuum chamber -- or even super thin CA that penetrates a couple thousandths. I think that I will turn a sacrificial piece to sit in the sun to see what happens.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Since you used the word oxidize, I would presume that energy in the form of heat or light is the trigger (catalyst) that starts the reaction with oxygen. Since dry wood is full of air (part of which is oxygen), any film finish is nothing more than a window pane. This makes me curious about what the result would be for a process that removes most of the air such as Curtis Seebeck's Cactus Juice in a vacuum chamber -- or even super thin CA that penetrates a couple thousandths. I think that I will turn a sacrificial piece to sit in the sun to see what happens.

Faster to just shave a slice on the band saw so you have a flat surface of red exposed. Don't know what the ability of CJ or CA are to block UV but you'll be able to find out in an hour or so as that's about how long it takes my B-E to go brown in direct sunlight.

PS: I never asked my friend what the actual reaction was so don't rely on my use of the word "oxidize" to describe the breakdown/color change. Interesting, however that blood with its iron-rich red cells goes to brown as well when it's exposed to light and air.

 

[Brian McInturff]

I've had good luck with Acrylic finish with the UV inhibitor(Cabinet Grade finish). I've got a piece I turned about 12-14 years ago and the red is the same as it was when I turned it.

 

[Bill Boehme]

My internet searching referred to oxidation and I didn't run across much of anything that would be of interest to woodturners (what happened to the red) such as phenols breaking down because of UV light. However, the subject of phenols is such a broad topic that covers man made things from phenolphthalein which is used as a laxative and as a pH indicator to phenols derived from coal and petroleum to make phenolic plastics, components of pesticides and cosmetics (hopefully not the same ingredients), and other various things to naturally occurring phenols.

I remember when I was a kid and looking for something to unplug Fido, reading on the label of a phenolphthalein laxative package (I won't mention the name of a certain chocolate flavored pill that we all know very well) that it shouldn't be administered to pets because it might kill Fido or Fluffy. Turns out that a little stronger dose could have done the same thing to little Billy. Some years later when the FDA figured out that it wasn't good for humans either they put a ban on that nuclear option.

 

[hockenbery]

That would look good, Al.....thanks for the suggestion. The wall thickness goes to about 1/4" at the bottom and as you can see fades to a thinner rim.

The reason it would look good is that you have a great shape.
Having spectacular wood in a poor form is just a waste of good wood.
The real point is it will look real nice if the red turns brown. Just advise the customer to keep it out direct sunlight and don't pay extra for the color that may not be there in a few years.

I like to bleach box elder. It makes the red pop and it seems to set the color to hold a bit longer.
And the a uv finish. The fading is usually gradual and we don't notice the change. Until one day when find a photo from day one.

Al

 

[Mark Mandell]

I like to bleach box elder. It makes the red pop and it seems to set the color to hold a bit longer.
Al

That's what I was looking for from my bud; a "mordant" that would "set" the color like salt does for fabric dyes. Replacing the natural color with dye is a rather picky process, but I'm confident that when it goes out the door the color will stay bright.

The option is there to use the color fade, however. I do a piece for newly weds in a ginger jar form as a wishing jar. I tell them that the red will fade, just like the fire of a new love, to a warm and comfortable brown. The allegory is appropriate. I'm waiting to do one for a gay couple so I can tell them the red will last a whole lot longer if they put it in the closet. 😀

 

[hockenbery]

That's what I was looking for from my bud; a "mordant" that would "set" the color like salt does for fabric dyes. Replacing the natural color with dye is a rather picky process, but I'm confident that when it goes out the door the color will stay bright. The option is there to use the color fade, however. I do a piece for newly weds in a ginger jar form as a wishing jar. I tell them that the red will fade, just like the fire of a new love, to a warm and comfortable brown. The allegory is appropriate. I'm waiting to do one for a gay couple so I can tell them the red will last a whole lot longer if they put it in the closet. 😀

Yes in deed.
The only sure way is to apply a color following the organic pattern in the wood.
I saw Binh do one with a airbrush and it looked so easy with airbrush in his hands.
My skill with a airbrush is nil.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have no doubt that if I tried either brushing or spraying a red dye that it would be obvious how the red got there.

I sought the advice of Larry Roberts (brother of S. Gary Roberts) and he said to leave it natural. I highly respect his advice so that's what I will do on a large bowl that faded as soon as the red was exposed to the light of day.

FBE doesn't stand a chance in my "studio" which was designed to received the full benefit of natural light (translation: I roll my lathe out on the driveway).

 

[Charlie Knighton]

I did some box elder for the 08 symposium @ Richmond, one the red has mostly turned brown, the other I have kept bagged, I bring it out to look at it every once in a while........its name was Arrrgh