finishing

[Tom Beatty]

Have seen references to using auto wax for final step in finishing. What type of polish is recommended?

 

[Steve Worcester]

if you are talking about using polish before wax, it would depend on what you are using as a finish

 

[Tom Beatty]

finishing sequence

Sorry, was not clear in my queston. Jimmy Clewes demonstrated his dyed platter last year at SWAT (2013). He said that after putting on several coats of lacquer with appropriate sanding, he finishednoff by polishing with an auto polish to get a higher shine. He mentioned a brand, which i have forgotten. Also, is there more than , one "grit" size in polish?

 

[joe marra]

Try Dupont finesse-it.

 

[Steve Worcester]

3m finesse-it?
for that product there is basically 3 "grits". A rubbing compound, swirl remover and final glaze. At least there was before they went to. "II" version.
i don't know how he applied the lacquer, I suppose you could hand apply, with a pad. But several coats would be required, then sanding to level,mother sanding towards shine (about 1000-1500 before rubbing compounds)
then I would use the rubbing and swirl remover, don't think you'll need the final glaze.
putting wax over that will potentially dull the finish

 

[Bill Boehme]

Tom, I don't know about Jimmy Clewes, but I use gloss spray lacquer -- the pre-cat stuff that our club sells. I started using it a few months ago and found that it dries with a smoother gloss surface than the Deft glass lacquer that I have been using for several years. It still isn't as glossy as I like so I use Micromesh 3X4 double sided pads to flatten and polish the finish to a high gloss. I've been buying it at Rockler Hardware. There are other similar materials, but I haven't tried them out. I bought a similar looking product made by 3M at SWAT a couple years ago. The pad on it seems to be too thin so I haven't used it. I go through all of the grits on the Micromesh and then for the final polishing step, I use Novus 2 or Hut Ultra Gloss applied with a Jumbo cotton ball. I discovered that even a fine cotton cloth leaves a haze from fine scratches, but the cotton balls won't leave any scratches. At this point, I don't think that there really is any reason to apply a wax, but if you do, I would suggest Johnson's Paste Wax. I believe that all of the automotive polishes and "waxes" are silicone so I would be hesitant to use them. I would let the lacquer dry for at least a week before doing anything to it.

If Jimmy Clewes is talking about using a liquid automotive polish, my opinion is that you need to get the surface flat first -- otherwise, you are just shining the bumps. Hopefully, I will have an example to bring for "show and tell" next week.

 

[John Tisdale]

Tom
As materials are means to an end, what end result are you after?
If you're after a soft/organic finish with the tactile feel of wood, a oil or oil varnish / carnauba is hard to beat - several on this forum get great results from that combination. Instead of worrying about polishing, which is rubbing with a fine-grit, I would think sanding the raw wood to at least 500 and then several coats of oil and finally wax.
If you are after gloss, the finishing effort now jumps several fold. Above Bill mentions pre-cat lacquer from his club - while I haven't a clue what it is, I would bet it is a higher solids material than is commonly sold in hardware stores. High solids is great stuff and it is the most difficult to apply due to "orange peel". Take a look at your car, any car including your Porsche or Ferrari - the surface has a definite orange peel look. A well done and consistent orange-peel surface looks good on a car but it looks terrible on turnings. Considering the fact that turnings are inherently more difficult to coat than cars and are generally coated in garage environments, the "rubbing out" becomes a stand-alone art form.

Back to your original question, in my process polishing is the last step in rubbing-out. To echo the comments above, if you haven't "flattened" and sanded to 2000 or 3000, polishing is a waste.

Bill,
I understand you're in the Ft. Worth club - would love to visit and see your work. Several of your comments imply you've charged off in the same weeds I'm in. And since you're obviously in to abrasives, check out Assilex from Eagle Abrasives. It's outrageously expensive but worth twice the price. I only use the DA to knock off big bumps and then go to hand-sanding with Assilex - it allows me to DRY SAND all the way to 3000 and then compound/polish.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Tom
As materials are means to an end, what end result are you after?
If you're after a soft/organic finish with the tactile feel of wood, a oil or oil varnish / carnauba is hard to beat - several on this forum get great results from that combination. Instead of worrying about polishing, which is rubbing with a fine-grit, I would think sanding the raw wood to at least 500 and then several coats of oil and finally wax.
If you are after gloss, the finishing effort now jumps several fold. Above Bill mentions pre-cat lacquer from his club - while I haven't a clue what it is, I would bet it is a higher solids material than is commonly sold in hardware stores. High solids is great stuff and it is the most difficult to apply due to "orange peel". Take a look at your car, any car including your Porsche or Ferrari - the surface has a definite orange peel look. A well done and consistent orange-peel surface looks good on a car but it looks terrible on turnings. Considering the fact that turnings are inherently more difficult to coat than cars and are generally coated in garage environments, the "rubbing out" becomes a stand-alone art form.

Back to your original question, in my process polishing is the last step in rubbing-out. To echo the comments above, if you haven't "flattened" and sanded to 2000 or 3000, polishing is a waste.

Bill,
I understand you're in the Ft. Worth club - would love to visit and see your work. Several of your comments imply you've charged off in the same weeds I'm in. And since you're obviously in to abrasives, check out Assilex from Eagle Abrasives. It's outrageously expensive but worth twice the price. I only use the DA to knock off big bumps and then go to hand-sanding with Assilex - it allows me to DRY SAND all the way to 3000 and then compound/polish.

John,

If Tom is after the same results that Jimmy Clewes demonstrated at SWAT and in a couple of his videos that show his technique creating a dyed rim platter, then a high gloss finish is what he is after. I first tried this technique four years ago and my beginner's luck results were so gratifying that I became hooked on making dyed rim platters and similar decorative pieces.

About the lacquer that the club buys -- one of our former members, Leon Novikoff, had a high-end office furniture business, Novikoff Furniture, and he had a special formulation of rattle-can lacquer that his employees carried to job sites for touch-up work. Our club members liked the lacquer so much that we have been ordering cases of lacquer and sealer ever since. We have been getting Satin, Sheen, and Extra Flow Gloss. It is a pre-cat lacquer and I suppose that it might also be high in solids since it seems to build faster than Deft, but unlike hardware store lacquer where it seems like fast drying is what sells, it appears that the reducer in this lacquer evaporates slowly enough that the finish has more time to level off (and sag if you don't pay attention to what you're doing). You have to look really hard under good lighting to see any hint of orange peel. By comparison, Deft is definitely a big step down in finish quality even though I considered Deft to be one of the better hardware store rattle can lacquers (I should point out that gloss Deft doesn't rattle, so you can shake it, but you can't rattle it).

Pre-cat lacquer is very similar to post-cat lacquer which is mixed at the time of use and generally, once mixed, has a relatively short pot life and fairly critical re-coat window. Pre-cat lacquer comes with the catalyst already added and, in this case, loaded into pre-charged aerosol cans. I think that the aerosol cans of Novikoff lacquer have a labeled shelf life of six months, but I have not had any problems with lacquer that is older than that. Steve Worcester is an expert and can tell you how many facts I have managed to mangle. I just use the stuff, but know very little about catalyzed lacquers. Here is a link with some information on pre-cat lacquer for dummies like me.

Deft, Minwax, and most other hardware store rattle can lacquers are nitrocellulose which apparently means that they can yellow a bit over time. I believe that he Novikoff lacquer is a CAB Acrylic lacquer which means that it dries crystal clear and supposedly doesn't yellow. It seems like I also encounter fewer problems with blushing with this lacquer.

I am planning on bringing a dyed rim platter to the October meeting. I just finished spraying the last coat this morning. I will polish the finish before the meeting, but will also bring some test pieces that have not been polished.

 

[Tom Beatty]

do visit

John
I am also in the fort worth club and have seen Bill's work and his dyed bowls and platters are worth seeing. Do not think I have seen any better finish including Clewes work. We meet the last thursday of each month except Nov (moved forward a week due to thanksgiving and Dec, no meeting). Normally start at 6:30. this monthwe are having an open turning starting at 3pm and ending at 6pm.

 

[john lucas]

Can't give you details because I'm not at home and don't have the chemicals in front of me. I use a local
Commercial lacquer. I sand with 600 grit wet or dry paper I buy at the automotive store to level
The surface. Follow this with another spray or two followed by leveling with 600 grit.
Then I use an automotive abrasive followed by swirl remover. That usually gives me a glass finish

 

[Bill Boehme]

BTW, here is an iPad shot of the dyed rim platter made in direct sunlight -- which is a subject that I need to share with John Lucas. We have discussed (not sure which forum) about photographing figured wood to highlight the chatoyance and I have made some recent discoveries that may "shed some light" on the topic. More about that later when I have more time.



The thing that I wanted to point out here is the orange peel. It isn't very noticeable except surrounding the reflection of the sun at the bottom of the platter. After the surface is leveled and polished, the reflection would have been mirror-like with possibly a starburst pattern depending on the lens iris shape.