Finishes

[herb]

Hi,

I've tried using different wipe on finishes on my bowls with so-so success. I've used waxes, shellac, and a wipe-on polyurethane (that is probably the best). I don't have a spray gun nor a polishing system. I'm starting to show up in some galleries so really interested in a very good finish. What will that take?

Herb

 

[Mark Placek]

Herb,

I've had the most success with 2 coats of Teak oil (watco) and 3-6 coats of Tung oil depending upon what type of wood I'm using.
Sanding has a lot to do with the final appearance, I sand up to 1200 grit before applying the first coat finish.

The nice thing about the teak oil it penetrates well and hardens in the wood.
Hand rubbing the tung oil will give you a wide range of luster from satin to gloss.

I sprayed a few bowls with automotive clear urethane, but this requires the ability to apply it.

 

[Steve Worcester]

...I sprayed a few bowls with automotive clear urethane, but this requires the ability to apply it.

If you are going to spray on a budget, don't go into automotive urethanes. Too toxic, to finicky.

You can shoot something like Hood lacquer with a compressor, spray gun and a mask. Then some finish sanding and polishes with good success.

Not what I would use for food usage, but for decorative, would work well.

 

[LHauch]

Assuming you have an air compressor, I've been spraying a lot of finishes using an airbrush - I have several single stage, external mix Badger 250 (and a couple of the cheaper copies of the 250 from Harbor Freight) and a detailed Paasche for hairline colouring (bought it from dixieart.com - great company to do business with.)

As long as you take your time, spraying lots of thin coats works great.

One of the people in our club has started spraying using the water-based lacquer with very good success - something we'll probably all have to do in the future, as environmental standards are forcing our normal finishes off the market.

 

[Ken Grunke]

Have you tried the Beall (spelling?) or similiar buffing system with the wipe-on poly?

Muslin buffing wheel, and white diamond polishing compound, that is.

It gives the lacquered look, without the hassle.

 

[pfduffy]

Herb, Finishes have been a constant struggle for many of us, including me. Recently I have tried using 2 coats of de-waxed shellac and then Waterlox. The results seem to justify the cost and results. I am also going to try the de-waxed shellac and wipe on poly and see how the finishes compare. Could be zero, could be small. We will see. Phil

 

[Owen Lowe]

've tried using different wipe on finishes on my bowls with so-so success. I've used waxes, shellac, and a wipe-on polyurethane (that is probably the best). I don't have a spray gun nor a polishing system. I'm starting to show up in some galleries so really interested in a very good finish. What will that take?

Herb, without a semi-detailed description of your desired outcome (what you'd like the finished surface to look like) and what it is about your results that have disappointed you and your application techniques, it doesn't help for us to merely throw out there what we do. For example, it could be as simple as needing to apply more coats of whatever finish you are using.

If you can provide that information, you'll get much more helpful replies.

 

[herb]

hi,

Thanks for all of your responses. Owen raises an excellent point. With waxes and shellac I've gotten an uneven finish - that is not a smooth surface. With the poly I get a pretty smooth finish but can still feel texture owing to the differences in the growth rings. I generally put on 3-4 coatings of the poly and don't know if additional coats wood fix that. There is also technique. if you put a lot of finish on the rag you risk runs that can be difficult to spot on the inside of the bowl. If you don't put enough you get smears and streaks.

What I want is a gallery quality finish, am willing to make some investments to get there. If a Beall system is the ticket, I would go there.

Thanks,

Herb

 

[Rob Wallace]

Any recommendations on water-based lacquer?

One of the people in our club has started spraying using the water-based lacquer with very good success - something we'll probably all have to do in the future, as environmental standards are forcing our normal finishes off the market.

Larry:

Do you have any more information on water-based lacquer? I, for one, would like to learn more. One of the reasons why I don't like spraying polyurethane is the need to sand between coats. Poly also appears a bit "plasticy" and in my experience, is not as optically-clear as lacquer. I assume that water-based lacquer finishes behave as their "solvent" counterparts do by 'melting' into the layer beneath, and this builds a decent film finish that can be buffed out. I've recently been using on-lathe-applied Mylands friction polish when I can't spray lacquer (too cold), and although I do get some pretty good finishes, I still prefer sprayed lacquer.

If anyone has experience spraying water-based lacquers, I'd like to hear some advice and recommendations on brands and sources for these finishes. At least in my situation, this may be the way to go..... I already spray "solvent-based" lacquer (mostly from cans - Watco, Behlen, etc.), and am frustrated this time of year having to wait for "warm" days to finish pieces because of the need to spray outside, or at least in my garage.

I'm sure many are interested in this topic...

Rob Wallace

 

[Owen Lowe]

With waxes and shellac I've gotten an uneven finish - that is not a smooth surface.

Herb, wax isn't much of a finish at all - only a surface enhancer. It'll wear away relatively quickly with handling or use. The shellac can be a beautiful finish if enough coats are applied, smoothed and buffed to the desired sheen. An uneven finish seems to indicate that you've not applied enough finish to even out the differing absorption characteristics of the wood.

With the poly I get a pretty smooth finish but can still feel texture owing to the differences in the growth rings. I generally put on 3-4 coatings of the poly and don't know if additional coats wood fix that.

This sounds like you are not smoothing and sanding the bare surface adequately to achieve what you're after. Only heavy coats of finish with block sanding to level the coatings will remove traces of differing surface levels.

There is also technique. if you put a lot of finish on the rag you risk runs that can be difficult to spot on the inside of the bowl. If you don't put enough you get smears and streaks.

My application technique for any wipe-on finish (which is what I primarily use) is to apply enough to completely coat the surface, wait 5 or 10 minutes and then thoroughly wipe off the excess with a clean soft cloth. I then wait for that application to dry and then repeat 3 to 5 times. Each time you apply and wipe off, you leave small amounts of finish in the imperfections of the previous surface which cure and eventually level the finish on a very small scale. You won't fill any kind of major depression without, what i would consider, excessive applications of finish. That is best addressed during the finish cuts and sanding.

Not putting on (or leaving) enough finish is easier to deal with than too much. Subsequent applications will even out previous non-uniform applications; it'll all work out in the end. Too much means you fill in details or get finish runs which are a pain to clean up.

What I want is a gallery quality finish, am willing to make some investments to get there. If a Beall system is the ticket, I would go there.

Buffing (i.e., Beall System) may not solve your problem. Buffing is a final step to smooth nibs and make a uniform sheen once adequate finish material has been applied. It sounds to me as if you need to study a little more on ways you can improve the bare surface and then work on finish application techniques. You can then move on to evaluating ways to finish the finish - which ultimately may include using buffing and wax.

 

[Frank Kobilsek]

Herb,
My favorite finish delivers a nice warm glow certainly not glass gloss but plently of shine is Minwax Antique oil.

While still in the lathe but inside and out finish sanded to 400 to 600 I'll liberally apply the oil with a folder paper towel. In a few minutes you will notice small dry spots. Repeat the application with a new towel. I will repeat this cycle for maybe 30 or 40 minutes or as long as I have time for. At least 4 cycles. Then with just a dab of oil on a towel for lubrication while the piece as dry as possible. Remove from lathe and take inside to harden. If you have the opportunity wipe buff it with a clean towel about 30 minutes later. Sometimes it sort of blooms from the grain.

When I remove the tenon from the bowl (several days later) I will give the whole piece one more coat of oil and buff dry.

Finaly I BEALL buff. The longer you let the oil cure the better the buff job so I tend to buff a months worth of work in one session.

Good luck as the first response said finishing is a challenge to most of us. I believe your personal taste and the intended use of the piece will drive your decision in this area.

Frank

 

[rsser]

I like the way 'wood oils' can enhance contrast in the wood and sometimes really 'pop' the grain. Rustin's Danish Oil is the best of them in my experience; usually 3 wipe-on coats and that's it. If a higher sheen is needed, then wax will do it.

The downside is that wood oils darken timber noticeably and with pale timbers enough to make them look somewhat messed with. Here I use nitrocellulose sanding sealer (usually two coats brushed on and cut back with fine steel wool) with wax over that.

A critical issue is how much shine you want on your pieces. In my view the finish shouldn't be so reflective that you can't see the figure.

 

[Malcolm Smith]

A couple of points. The type of wood being finished has bearing on the choice of finish and what one turner likes as an end result, another doesn't. A lot of time needs to be spent trying different methods and finishes of the different woods the turner uses. Many turners only use local wood. Fortunately, most of us settle on a small variety of woods which we repeatedly use and ultimately end up employing one or two finishing methods.

Malcolm Smith.

 

[LHauch]

Rob:
I don't have any experience with the water-based lacquers, so I'm not sure that they melt-in like the solvent based ones do - I would hazard a guess and say that they don't after a few days. You would want a lacquer finish that is durable, including some resistance to water. I know that Moser makes a water-based, hi-gloss lacquer.
The guy in the club has also used water-based urethanes that dry very hard, with similar characteristics of standard poly-urethanes - once dry, the hold up very well.

I know what it's like to have to wait for warm/dry weather, living up in the Pacific NW. If I take my time, turn up the electric radiator in the garage, I can spray on Shellac. I have to wait longer between spraying the very light coats, as it takes longer to dry, and you don't want a build-up to quickly, otherwise the coats will whiten. (if that happens, I'll lightly spray on straight alcohol, then move the item into our laundry room for about 1/2 hour. SWMBO is allergic to almost every solvent, so I usually wait till she's out of the house for a few hours before doing this.)
I usually mix my shellac this time of year down to less than a 1lb. cut - the more alcohol, the after it dries.

I plan on trying the water-based urethane after I use up what I've got sitting around - probably sometime this summer.

Hope this helps.

 

[Rob Wallace]

Try General Finishes High Performance Poly....

Thanks for the information Larry.

I will continue to try to learn about water-based lacquers, particularly for use at 'small scales' compared to furniture manufacturer scale operations, which is what a lot of the available information is based around.

If you decide to move to water-based polyurethanes, I have had success using General Finishes High Performance Poly (gloss), which remains fairly clear and colorless, and does not develop as much of the blueish cast that some water-based polys are known for. I have applied this finish via HVLP spray as well as brushing it on with a high-quality synthetic brush (it flows out and levels pretty well, although there are the inevitable occasional brush strokes in the finish that need to be buffed-out). The General Finishes HP poly is a bit more pricey than some other W-B polys on the market, however, given that we are working on bowls, vessels, etc. on a relatively small scale, the cost difference is trivial; we just don't use that much per piece. This specific finish was recommended to me by a segmented turner from Arizona who applies 10+ coats of the finish since it dries so quickly (...especially for him in AZ!). I still don't like the 'plastic' appearance that some polys have; this just doesn't "work" for me on turned items.

Although the water-based poly does dry quickly to a fairly hard finish and offers good protection, it still pales in comparison to sprayed lacquers for depth and clarity. Lacquer finishes just look better (at least to me), and are more "crisp", allowing more cellular detail of the wood to come through the finish.

Thanks again for your reply!

Rob Wallace

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Rob - I found a lot of really good information in the book "Water Based Finishes" by Andy Charron. You can find it online for $15 -$20.

I've been spraying Crystalac Premium. I've had good results, but I've still got a ways to go up the learning curve.

Target Coatings and ML Campbell have pretty good wb finishes as well, but it is easier for me to get Crystalac in quart / gallon size. I've only been able to find other brands in 5 gallon pails with the local distributors.

I don't have to worry about freezing, but you would need to be sure to keep all your wb finishes in a warm location where they won't freeze if your shop gets cold in the winter.

The degree of "Burn In" seems to vary between vendors. I don' think any of them wil be the same as traditional lacquers.

Traditional lacquers weren't an option for me because I'm not set up to spray toxic, explosive materials.

I was really worried about humidity issues. Wasn't a problem at all, even at the peak of summer.

One piece of advice I got early on that has helped a lot is to apply a coat of Bullseye Seal Coat Universal Sanding Sealer before spraying. It's a wax free shellac that is stabilized somehow to give it a pretty long shelf life. I used to make my own shellac from flakes. No more. Seal Coat is vastly superior for me.

Be careful with the buffing.

Good luck.


Ed

 

[Brujo]

Having tried many different types of finishes I now only use tung oil. I've been using it long enough that when I see older work I am often shocked at how poor some of the other finishes I have tried stand up. Compliments on my finish are almost always the thing fellow turners like to talk about.

Here's the recipe.
Sand to at least 600

Thin your tung oil, with turpentine. Different woods will require different viscosities for the oil to penetrate well. Start with 50%. Wipe it on with a paper towel until no more oil will absorb into the wood, wipe off excess, let dry at least one day longer if it is tacky.

Use 0000 steel wool until finish is super smooth. blow off steel wool dust. re-apply oil. I generally use a slightly thicker mix than 50% at this point. This is not an exact science, so I usually just poor a little more oil into the thinned tung oil from previous step. let dry. Repeat this step until you are happy with the finish (with out steel wooling). I usually do at least 4 coats.

Buff with steel wool one more time ,than apply the thin (50% oil) coat, being careful not to leave any un-even areas. Let dry. I do not have a beal buffing system so I use a buffing wheel in a hand drill with no buffing compound. A rag by hand works to.

If you do not want the high gloss look, use the steal wool one more time (lightly) and you will have a nice satin finish.

Lots of work, but it is worth it.

 

[Joe Greiner]

Some of my favorite accomplishments arose from being too stupid to know what's impossible or inadvisable.

From my "Idiot's Guide to Finishing" - a work in progress, for the benefit of other idiots:

Over the years, I've learned the right way to do a few things, and the wrong way to do almost everything else.

I finished this small cedar bowl, using some of the wrong ways. I didn't keep track of the sanding; probably to 400. I gave it four light coats of spray satin polyurethane. After about a week cure, I was dissatisfied with the uneven coating. I polished the inside by hand, with EEE-Ultrashine, then 1 coat of paste wax, both buffed with paper towels. I was able to mount it on my Longworth chuck in expansion mode, to machine finish the outside, the same way. The instructions for both products advise using a clean cloth. I was too impatient to hunt down any clean cloths.

The results are a lot like the results of "romance:" When it's good, it's really good; when it's bad, it's still pretty good. I'm not suggesting cavalier ignorance of the instructions, but sometimes "perfect enough" is satisfactory.

Dimensions: 4 7/8" (125mm) diameter, 3" (75mm) high.

This will be a gift to a neighbor, who provided me with the large log a while back. Probably next month's WT club Show'n'Tell, too.

Joe <2009_01_22\IdiotGuide\IG3,4.JPG

 

[Dick Sowa]

Be careful with the buffing.

Ditto. I discovered the hard way, that tripoli and white diamond can be pretty aggressive abrasives. If you try to buff a turning that has been finished with a surface film like poly or lacquer, you can very quickly remove the surface film down to bare wood. So if you are buffing a film finish, I recommend you just use wax.

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Ditto. I discovered the hard way, that tripoli and white diamond can be pretty aggressive abrasives.

Isn't that the truth!! The first piece that I got really good results with spraying wb lacquer ended up with a few dust nibs in the finish. No problem. A quick buff would have it looking like glass.

Before I knew it I had a bare wood racing stripe down on the side of the piece. DOH!! 😱

Now if I buff, I just use a wheel with nothiing on it, a very gentle touch and always keep the piece moving quickly. I probably use micromesh (with water) more than buffing now.

Ed