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finishes for wet use bowls?

E

ebrannon

Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
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Location
Milford, PA
A friend spent time at a B&B in the UK this past year and they ate their morning porridge out of wood bowls (treenware I suppose). They have asked me to make them a set of bowls out of oak cut from their property. I, of course, said I would be delighted to do so.

So, here is the question: What finishes should I consider? What will stand up to wet use and repeated washings? Food safe? I know, all finishes are supposedly food safe after 30 days, but if I was to assume they are all not equal, how does this change the answer?

I have my own ideas, but have really not used many of my bowls with "wet" food like cereal. Also, oak is an open grain wood, and probably would need to be sealed. Hmmmmm.

Ed
 
Thank you for asking that question. I also want to the answer. I have read that another turner has used a combination of olive oil and bee's wax but only for salads with vinegar and oil and they looked is if the held up very well. I have only used olive oil finish for salads and I did not think that it held up that well.
Waiting for the answer.
Thanks,
Dave
 
Thank you for asking that question. I also want to know the answer. I have read that another turner has used a combination of olive oil and bee's wax but only for salads with vinegar and oil and they looked is if the held up very well. I have only used olive oil finish for salads and I did not think that it held up that well.
Waiting for the answer.
Thanks,
Dave
 
Best finish is nothing, but that supposes a nice beech, birch or maple. Oak has so many holes in it that guck will accumulate even with a good rinse after each use. If it's one of the red oaks, liquid'll run out through the open tyloses as well.

Perhaps your friend would like one of the friendly woods rather than a sentimental one?
 
I've been using tung oil for several years now. It has been used on boats, floors and many other potentially wet environments for centuries. I use Waterlox original and cut it roughly 50/50 with pure to get something that will cure in a reasonable amount of time (Waterlox with it's additives will cure in 10 min., pure in two days!). Regardless, once cured tung oil is food and just about anything else safe.
 
Ed,
Hopefully you have white oak. White oak is fairly common in the east.
White oak is used for barrels and boats it holds water in or out and it is extremely rot resistant.

Red oak has such large pores that it cannot be used for barrels. Red oak would require considerable sealing and would not be suitable for a bowl to hold liquid.

A white oak bowl would serve without any finish. Mineral oil, Mahoney oil, walnut oils would work well as a finish.

Our oaks are divided into 3 classes
Red, white, and live. Live oak has not grown in the PA area since colonial times when it was all cut for ships.
The curved limbs could be shaped in curved timbers for keels and ribs.

Have fun,
Al
 
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species

Hi Al,

Thanks for the reply.

The piece they gave me is Red Oak, but they have white oak on the property, and I have some beech in my wood pile. I have turned a few small pots with live oak (from Florida). It is actually very dense and would be very good and comes up nicely in a variety of finishes.

I am assuming that using a sanding sealer on the red oak (Deft), and a mineral oil and bees wax coating would not hold up on the red oak? I have a bowl from David Lancaster that has a bees wax/mineral finish, which is incredibly durable. After a year, I have yet to do anything but wipe it out, or a slight rinse off. It is like teflon. I am not sure how he does it, but it holds up to wet use.

Ed

ps weather broke, and we are having indian summer in Pennsylvania (after months of heavy rain). So I know you got your first break in Florida.
 
hockenbery said:
Ed,

White oak is used for barrels and boats it holds water in or out and it is extremely rot resistant.

A white oak bowl would serve without any finish. Mineral oil, Mahoney oil, walnut oils would work well as a finish.
Click to expand...

Notice that barrels have no end grain exposed to the liquid to speak of? It leaks through those big pores if they try. Notice, as well, that naked oak or charred oak is used to flavor/color things like sherry and whiskey. Might not improve the taste of your Frosted Flakes if you let them lay in the milk.

American beech isn't the friendliest wood in the world, but it has very little taste, and holds water.
 
Ed,

If you seal red oak and make it waterproof. It should old water.

An epoxy coat on the inside of a vessel makes it watertight.

However if the integrity of the water barrier is compromised the bowl will leak.

Another less important issue is being dropped.
A red oak bowl is more likely to crack if dropped than the soft hardwoods.
The softer hardwoods like soft maple, box elder, or hackberry will dent rather than crack.
Although I have no proof, I believe a white oak bowl is probably more flexible and less likely to crack when dropped than a red oak bowl.
White oak is used to weave seats and baskets so it is quite flexible.

Al
 
hockenbery said:
Although I have no proof, I believe a white oak bowl is probably more flexible and less likely to crack when dropped than a red oak bowl.
White oak is used to weave seats and baskets so it is quite flexible.


Al
Click to expand...


Red oak spits beautifully for firewood-nice straight sides. White oak is "stringy". Years ago when I used to split my firewood wood with a maul, my shoulders knew the difference. I White oak yields more BTU's-I think. Does this play a role here??? Gretch
 
well, good advice

Here is what I ended up using:

American Beech for the bowls.

After drying in microwave and finish sanding, I gave them a heavy coat of Waterlox. Reapplied until it would not take any more. Let dry for a few days.

Waxed with a mix of beeswax and mineral oil (David Lancaster's formula).

Seems pretty good. Maintenance will be periodic waxing.

thanks for the suggestions.

Ed
 
Ez-do

I am new to the site here, but what I have been using for food safe bowl finish, is a product I use for butcher block counter tops. Just Google EZ-DO and you will find it. It is a poly gel that can take some moisture abuse.
Just my 2 cents hope it helps
 
MichaelMouse said:
Notice that barrels have no end grain exposed to the liquid to speak of? It leaks through those big pores if they try. Notice, as well, that naked oak or charred oak is used to flavor/color things like sherry and whiskey. Might not improve the taste of your Frosted Flakes if you let them lay in the milk.

American beech isn't the friendliest wood in the world, but it has very little taste, and holds water.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are not familiar with white oak which does not have visible pores as seen in red oak.
 
Bill Boehme said:
Sounds like you are not familiar with white oak which does not have visible pores as seen in red oak.
Click to expand...

LOL. You're kidding, right? The angels take their share through the OBVIOUS pores even when the bulk of the tyloses have closed.
 
From Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_alba

"White oak has tyloses that give the wood a closed cellular structure, making it water- and rot-resistant. Because of this characteristic, white oak is used for barrels for wine and whiskey production since it resists leaking. It has also been used in construction, shipbuilding, cooperage, agricultural implements, and in the interior finishing of houses.[3]"

The Constellation and Constitution are still floating.

In my experience:
Red oak bowls with 3/4" walls leak air on a vacuum chuck an leaks finish through the wall
White oak bowls with 1/2" walls don't leak finish or air.

Lots of dealers confuse the oaks so some "white oak" may be sold as red.
Al
 
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All those pores are "visible," right? Normally filled by woodworkers looking for glassy surfaces, or anyone who doesn't want gunk from their cereal to accumulate in them, even though their bottom may be closed. The big holes which do not have closed tyloses stay wet and expanded to keep most of the liquid in the barrel.

Interesting information about the rate of loss through that impermeable oak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_(wine)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel's_share#Angels.27_share

Warning to believers in alcohol "drying." Don't read either, they go against your beliefs.
 
MichaelMouse said:
Interesting information about the rate of loss through that impermeable oak..
Click to expand...

Barrels leak through the joints not through the wood.
The barrel staves are butted together and held tight with rings not glue, no caulk. New barrels often leak a lot until the wood absorbs liquid causing the joints to close slowing the leaks.

The leakage is through the unglued joints not through the wood.
In ships they caulk the joints. When ships leak it is through the joints not through the oak.

al
 
ebrannon said:
So, here is the question: What finishes should I consider? What will stand up to wet use and repeated washings?
Ed
Click to expand...

definitely consider walnut oil as the first finishing oil and then walnut oil/beeswax combo for maintenance after each washing.

develops into a lovely patina with use.

i'm using this on my own salad bowl & utensils used and washed daily and am very pleased with the walnut oil as a finish.

if you don't have a local source for the walnut oil (and not the oil found from the grocery store), get the Mahoney oil.

e
 
hockenbery said:
Barrels leak through the joints not through the wood.
The barrel staves are butted together and held tight with rings not glue, no caulk. New barrels often leak a lot until the wood absorbs liquid causing the joints to close slowing the leaks.

The leakage is through the unglued joints not through the wood.
In ships they caulk the joints. When ships leak it is through the joints not through the oak.

al
Click to expand...

Sure. Are you saying they don't make watertight joints by forcing hoops around the barrel and then filling them with liquid to force even tighter?

Oakum is more watertight than oak. Unfortunately the planking moves against itself with the stresses at sea. The bilges do help keep the planks swollen, though.

Anyone know what they call the wooden box seals they make by compressing the wood on wires, then re-expanding after trimming?
 
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