Fingernail grind questions, bowl gouge--- help a man when he's down!

[Matt Meadows]

I'm a bit mystified by the number, and variations, in bowl gouges. I'm a cabinet maker (well, apprentice--- at least not for Trump) and a college student, so I have to make purchases that *count*.

Most of my bowls are medium size (up to 10" across) and half are green when first turned. I've been duking it out with a 10mm P&N gouge that I've pretty much ground into a nub the past year trying to learn to hand grind. Some worked. Most didn't. Launched a bowl or two (messed up a nice purpleheart bowl was making for the wife, a catch that happened when I sharpened the gouge apparently too aggresively). No injuries, I usually turn "outboard" style on the Shopsmith so I'm out of the line of fire. You purists are probably gagging on my choice of tooling and machinery, and I don't blame you!


Short story long, I am in dire need of a new, more appropriate sized bowl gouge. I have an Ellsworth jig I really, really want to use but is *totally* useless on my 10mm P&N. It claims to be used for 5/8" bowl gouges only.

Can I just get any brand bowl gouge (like Pinnacle) and use the Ellsworth jig? Would a Crown Pro-PM be a good investment at twice the price of a Pinnacle?


I'm just in a bit of a bind and can't afford (literally) to buy a $50-$80 gouge and find out the flutes are shaped *just* differently enough for the jig to work properly.

I appreciate the help guys, big time! I often feel that more money is made in woodworking supplies due to confusion, ignorance, and impatience than by companies that actually help customers make the *right* choice the first time (this is true in industrial cabinetry as well, I can promise you!).

 

[Natastic Emerson]

I hate to say it, but Ellsworth grinding jig may have been the wrong choice.
If you can spring for another 50 bucks, you can get the Wolverine varigrind jig, which is infinently more variable than the Ellsworth jig.

If you want to use smaller gouges with the fingernail, but don't want to buy another 50 dollar tool, it is quite easy to make your own 'Ellsworth jig' out of wood. I'm pretty sure you can handle it. Bore hole the size of gouge in scrap wood. Then drill press and dowel for the leg. Thumbscrew to secure the gouge. Using these homemade jigs, you can have as many as you want, at any angle you want, for any gouge for really, really cheap.

You may find that 5/8" is a little big for your purposes (10" bowls), depending on how much detail you do. I stick to that size bowl, and have come to love my 1/2" bowl gouge.

If you have a P&N, I presume you either have a replaceable handle or are capable of making your own handles. I beleive that P&N are definently a good value. Don't buy the Pro-PM if you are short on cash. You will need to sharpen more with the P&N, but it will last you long enough. Once you learn to sharpen correctly, you will (ideally) be removing only a few thousandths of an inch of steel each time you sharpen. That can be quite a few sharpenings over a 5-6 inch flute.

I have a Pro-PM spindle gouge and definantly like it. It was a gift, and I am a jobless kid. So I go for the boring high speed steel when I buy. I'll save the money for a Jacobs chuck or something else that you can't cheat or buy lower quality with.

 

[Kefferpl]

Redfish
I belive you will find that the 1/2" bowl gouge from Packard Has the proper flute. I have a Ellisworth gouge and jig- and I use my 1/2" bowl gouge from packard to due rough out then use the Ellisworth to do 2-3 finish cuts - sharpen both with the Ellisworth jig to get his side grind- for the grind to work (Well) the inside flute must have the right shape not to steap or shollow a "U" shape.

 

[Jeff Jilg]

You are probably overgrinding. While there are some folks who feel that everyone should learn to freehand grind, I am not one of them. If you use a jig such as the Ellsworth then after you establish the initial grind, subsequent grindings will basically be honing a very small surface area during each trip to the grinder.

Just about any of the popular brands with high speed steel will deliver a good gouge. Different people have different preferences. I have done a bunch of turning (one of the roughout stacks). My preference is the Crown brand, 5/8". I have 2 Pro-PM 5/8" gouges. They stay sharp longer than standard high speed steel. Other brands of Powdered Metal (PM) steel are probably similar in their ability to hold an edge longer. I've been eyeing the new 3/4" Pro-PM, but for your purposes it would be too big.

The Ellsworth jig is fine. As noted by Nat it only has one angle. That is probably sufficient for most people. I made my own jig and it only has a fixed angle. It works fine for my purposes. I found that by moving the bottom support in and out, that it gives enough variability for the turning I do. But this is just my opinion and you might find you need the adjustable type of jig. You should definitely use a jig so that you don't keep grinding your gouge down.

Also the standard grind from the store may not be satisfactory to start with. The Pro-PM standard gouges need to be reground before you first use them. They leave the wings on, and those could easily catch. They have an Ellsworth grind on one of their gouges for an extra $$ but I'd rather just establish the initial grind myself. Again, just an opinion.

You might also do a search in this forum for gouges and grinding. This has been discussed at length before.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Redfish,

If you will go to the Woodcraft web site, you will find that they have a help page on putting the proper shape on a bowl gouge for the Ellsworth grind. One note about gouge size -- in the US, the size is usually measured across the top of the flutes while in the UK it is the diameter of the gouge. So a 1/2" gouge is actually 5/8" diameter. It took me a while to figure this out while trying to find a 5/8 gouge for an Ellsworth jig. I learned that my 1/2" gouge fits the Ellsworth jig perfectly. For the dimensions specified in setting up the Ellsworth jig, it will result in a 55 degree grind which you may find to be a bit too aggressive. The angle can be increased by lengthening the 7" dimension for the pivot point to a slightly longer value of about 7 1/4" to 7 3/8" to give an angle in the range of 60 to 65 degrees. The wings on the side of the gouge should come back about 3/4" to 7/8". Pay close attention to the shape of the wings. The Woodcraft information shows pictures of the right and wrong shapes. I like to make the side view on my gouge look a bit straighter than what Woodcraft shows. If the wings stick up too much, it will be difficult to control the proper cutting angle. My understanding is that the Ellsworth grind is intended to approximately maintain a constant cutting angle along the entire bevel. When using other adjustable jigs, you typically wind up with very sharp angles on the wings unless you set it up to closely approximate the Ellsworth jig.

Bill

 

[MichaelMouse]

Sounds as if you've got the idea that there's a perfect all-round grind out there and have spent a lot of time and steel in search. None such, which is why you see so many varieties of gouge and grind and machines to make them. I've got four grinds on four gouges myself. Long, wood-hogging wings on the 5/8 Sorby, progressively shorter in proportion on the 3/8 and 1/4, because they don't have the section to handle the kind of shavings the big dude can, and the big dude can't go places they do.

My big 1" gouge has proportionally shorter wings than the 5/8, because even with them he can cut farther and fuller than my elbow can tolerate.

So what's he trying to say? Either learn to make compromises with the grind you have or get two gouges. One can have long ears for hogging, though depending on angle, you might not get more than a couple inches deep on a smaller diameter piece. The second can have shorter ears for steeper or deeper work, and probably can be one size smaller.

Oh yes, if you plan on hogging wide,thick shavings, get a broad U-shape flute so the shaving curls down and out rather than jamming in a more V-shaped grind.

 

[Matt Meadows]

Many thanks and much appreciation to all of you for your help. I did not realize that a 1/2" in the USA was a 5/8" in the UK. Good to know.

Micheal, I *am* looking for the *perfect* grind, kinda like looking for the *perfect* church--- once you've found it, well, you done messed it all up! Lol, in reality I'll settle for "good" and call it done.

In my misadventures with the 10mm P&N I've become adept at using the round nosed scraper & flat nosed pretty well, so I'm not overconcerned about shortcomings in the one grind.

I'll check out the woodcraft video, I'm sure it will help!

Matt

 

[Ed Koenig]

Redfish,

One note about gouge size -- in the US, the size is usually measured across the top of the flutes while in the UK it is the diameter of the gouge. So a 1/2" gouge is actually 5/8" diameter. It took me a while to figure this out while trying to find a 5/8 gouge for an Ellsworth jig. I learned that my 1/2" gouge fits the Ellsworth jig perfectly.
Bill

Let's set the record straight. British and North American nomenclature for tool sizes differs. When a British toll manufacturer says the size is 3/8" - the 3/8 refers to the distance across the flute. Whereas a North American 3/8" tool size refers to the outside of the tool or the bar stock size!

What you need to do is check with the supplier of the gouge since they often sell British tools but list them by American sizes. Example; the Ellsworth Signature Gouge measures 1/2" across the flute but the bar stock measure 5/8". Craft supplies sells the Ellsworth made by Crown Tools and one made by Henry Taylor tools. The Crown gouge is made in Britan and is sold as a 1/2" gouge. The Henry Taylor also made in Britan is sold using both measurments, 1/2" across the flute and 5/8" bar stock.

The reason your 1/2" Ellsworth gouge fits the jig perfectly is that it has a 5/8" bar stock which is what the jig is designed for.

Ed

 

[hockenbery]

I use the Elsworth jig. I figure it cost $30 the gouges cost $60 and they last 3 times longer than when I sharpen "free hand". The jig allows the honing on the wheel that Jeff talks about.

Properly ground and properly used you will never have a catch!

A couple of things to be mindful of when using any jig for a bowl gouge.

1. The desired cutting edge is a continuous convex shape. Any concave or dip will have high points on each side that make the tool very hard to control and catches result.

2. Always keep the tool rotating on the wheel. Avoid holding the tool in one place since this will grind a flat which translates into a dip on the cutting edge.

3. Grind the tip less than the wings there is less metal there. I tell my students to grind the wings twice and the tip once. I have developed a practice of lifting the tool slightly as I roll over the tip which results in nice convex cutting edge. SImpley ginding from side to side accross the tip takes too much metal off the tip resulting in a dip at the tip and two super agressive wings.

The Packard side ground gouge has a nice flute profile for the Ellsorth grind as does the Henry Taylor gouge. Gouges having either a steep Vee or semi-circle flutes don't have enough beef in the shoulder for the ellsworth grind.

You should try to find someone in the local area who can show you how to use the tools and sharpen them.

Happy Turning,
Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Ed,

Thanks for the clarification. My source which was some book or catalog that apparently had it bass ackwards. But, the moral of the story is to measure it yourself and decide which way you want to determine the size. I could tell by just eyeballing the Crown Ellsworth jig hanging on the rack in the store that the diameter was larger than 1/2" even though that is what the sticker said it was.

And, Redfish, the information on the Woodcraft site is a ".pdf" file and not a video. After doing some searching on the Woodcraft site, I finally found it and all that I can say is that navigating the site is really a pain and if you did not know that it was there, you would never find it. Anyway, here it is: Ellsworth grinding jig.

Bill

 

[MichaelMouse]

In my misadventures with the 10mm P&N I've become adept at using the round nosed scraper & flat nosed pretty well, so I'm not overconcerned about shortcomings in the one grind.
Matt

Well, after hogging with your bowl gouge, there's a great type of gouge to be used for finishing. A shallow one. You can buy them as "forged" or "continental" gouges. With a touch of rotation counterclockwise, you take a thin shaving across a broadly referenced surface, which makes those pesky grooves a thing of the past. Since you're firm on the rest, with the gouge curved away from the trailing cut in two directions, it doesn't catch, either.

The picture is of wet wood, which is why the shavings are limp. On dry wood, they twist tightly into great interlocked mats, so you have to follow on the opposite side.

 

[Matt Meadows]

Lol, beat you to it Bill, found it yeterdy.

Went to Woodcraft and picked up the 16mm P&N, I compared it to the flute shape of the Ellsworth Crown (not the grind, just the flute shape) and i honestly could only *barely* tell a difference, with the P&N having ever so slightly more of the U shape.

Made the handle out of hard maple and shot it with 3 coats of conversion varnish (MLC's Duravar). Gonna grind and use it Monday with any luck/energy when I get off work.