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facing waste blocks and blanks for gluing

D

DWFII

Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
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I'd like to use a waste block for doing bowls and hollow forms. I want to glue the waste block onto the bottom of a blank and then drill and tap the waste block for my spindle.

However, I'm uncertain as to the best way for face the waste block and especially the blank. I am thinking about trimming up a half section of black locust log for a bowl or hollow form and I want the blank and the waste block to interface as precisely as possible for the best glue joint.

Can someone briefly walk/talk me through the best sequence of procedures to get a good bond?

Thanks


DWFII
Somewhere in the High Desert of Central Oregon
 
Broad Flat Shoulders

I have usually faced the blank between centers with a gouge, producing the flattest surface I can. You can check with a straight edge. The most important area for a good bond is the outer shoulders and conversely the center is least important, so I just chisel away the stub that remains near the tail stock. Make the shoulders as big and as wide as you can consistent with what you are trying to do since the holding power of the bond is in part a matter of leverage.

For the waste block I may use a stump that's already on a face plate or in a chuck and do it similarly or form up a new one. If the situation allows it may be easier just to use a disk sander or planer. It may not be aligned with the lathe centerline, but sometimes that doesn't matter that much.

I also like to do the clamping on the lathe between centers, especially when alignment with the centerline is important and I can allow the cure time.

I know CA has plenty of holding power with well mated surfaces and provides that wonderful feeling you only get with immediate gratification 😀 , but if there is any question about how the surfaces mate and if the chunk would only laugh at my face shield, I use polyurethane and make myself wait.

You might like to start on a small and less valuable piece to satisfy yourself of your technique and the strength and reliability of the bond.
 
DWFII said:
I'd like to use a waste block for doing bowls and hollow forms. I want to glue the waste block onto the bottom of a blank and then drill and tap the waste block for my spindle.
Click to expand...
What I do is screw a piece of 13/16" Poplar to a faceplate, then round it with a gouge and glue it to the block.

I think with one good catch, your going to bust the tapped area of the block and away it will go.
 
I think I am with Steve W. on this one. I do not understand why you would want to drill and tap a piece of wood and use that instead of a face plate with a glue block on it. I believe there is not enough holding power in a piece of wood drilled and tapped. If the block glued on was a little out of round or as Steve said - you get a catch - off it comes. I like a face plate with a glue block - two flat surfaces - glued together. Medium CA glue with accelerator works fast.
Hugh
 
I'm thinking of trying this mostly because I'm a bit of a greenhorn at turning bowls and hollowforms. I'd like to turn green and my thought was that a roughed out bowl would distort to the point that even with a tenon (is that the right word?) on the bottom cut to be used with a chuck (I've got an Axminster) it might not be able to be mounted back in the chuck securely...thinking the tenon would distort too.

Don Henthorn posted an article on WoodCentral on how to make a "woodnut" from a relatively hard wood and glue it to another piece of waste and then glue both to the bottom of a blank. The bowl(s) were roughed out and then set up to finish drying with the woodnut still attached. A number of bowls could be done like this...no need for multiple faceplates. Then when the bowl was ready it could be threaded back onto the spindle, finished and parted from the secondary waste block with little or no waste on the bowl itself, and the whole thing--woodnut and waste block used again. It seemed like a pretty elegant solution. Again hard wood was used for the woodnut and it was dry. It was even suggested that CA could be used to strengthen the threads.

I'd be interested in hearing why this isn't a practical approach...or hearing about how others deal with re-mounting and truing up green roughed bowls.


DWFII
In the High Desert of Central Oregon
 
When I use a chuck (I also have an Axmister chuck) - On bowls that I am turning green and going to return after they dry - I first turn the bowl between centers to make the basic shape and the tenon. I turn the tenon on the large size of what the chuck will hold. I do not turn away the short spigot where the live center was. Then I paint with wax and put away to dry. When I decide to return the bowl I again put the bowl between centers and use the small spigot with the live center mark to center it. Then I return the spigot so it will fit in the chuck. Then the bowl is set to put into the chuck and re-turn back round. I still do not like the idea of a threaded wood nut holding a block of wood going 700 - 1500 RPM.
Hugh
 
DWFII said:
I'm thinking of trying this mostly because I'm a bit of a greenhorn at turning bowls and hollowforms. I'd like to turn green and my thought was that a roughed out bowl would distort to the point that even with a tenon (is that the right word?) on the bottom cut to be used with a chuck (I've got an Axminster) it might not be able to be mounted back in the chuck securely...thinking the tenon would distort too.

Don Henthorn posted an article on WoodCentral on how to make a "woodnut" from a relatively hard wood and glue it to another piece of waste and then glue both to the bottom of a blank. The bowl(s) were roughed out and then set up to finish drying with the woodnut still attached. A number of bowls could be done like this...no need for multiple faceplates. Then when the bowl was ready it could be threaded back onto the spindle, finished and parted from the secondary waste block with little or no waste on the bowl itself, and the whole thing--woodnut and waste block used again. It seemed like a pretty elegant solution. Again hard wood was used for the woodnut and it was dry. It was even suggested that CA could be used to strengthen the threads.

I'd be interested in hearing why this isn't a practical approach...or hearing about how others deal with re-mounting and truing up green roughed bowls.


DWFII
In the High Desert of Central Oregon
Click to expand...

Sounds like a wooden faceplate to me. Not nearly as strong as a steel faceplate or screw chuck. I suggest that you attach the glue block, then using a regular faceplate, rough turn the wet blank, wax it or coat it with Anchorseal, remove the faceplate, and store it to dry. The glue block will still be there when you remount the dry piece later to finish it.
 
Not your best choice

DWFII,

Put a chuck with #2 or #3 jaws on it on the lathe, and open up those jaws halfway. Now take a piece of plywood five or six inches in diameter and secure it against the jaws with the tailcenter. To set the terminology, the plywood is against the "face of the jaws". And that side of the plywood determines a plane that is perpendicular to the axis of rotation.

When turning a wet bowl blank you are trying to optimize the security of the blank and minimize the risk to yourself. When a chuck grips a tenon on a blank there are two things happening. The first is the squeezing forces against the tenon. The second, and equally important, is the force of the face of the jaws against the blank near the base of the tenon. The face of the jaws determine a plane that will rotate perpendicular to the axis of rotation. Similarly, the screws in a faceplate are securing the blank against a flat surface that ideally will rotate in a fixed plane perpendicular to the axis of rotation.

Screwing a wet blank that has been tapped onto the spindle basically ignores that flat plane of support mentioned above and only the wooden threads are holding the blank. That the blank would not seat tightly when it is screwed onto the spindle is most probable. Rotate the blank half a turn and it will probably sag. The wet wood will bruise easily and there is little holding the tapped blank on the spindle. Turn on the lathe and you are about to become DWFII, "blank catcher", not unlike "Gonzo the cannonball catcher". 😱 🙂

Consider the screw chuck, or screw center faceplates. A VERY AGGRESIVE screw is used to hold the blank against a surface much larger than most spindleheads that will rotate as needed.

I sincerely hope that you will not follow through on the tapping idea because it is false economy. The cost of a visit to an ER will pay for several GOOD faceplates.
 
I have noticed in this thread a few mentions of using CA for the bond. I have used CA quite often in thin, medium and thick form both with and without accelerator. But it has always been on dry wood and for smaller things like pens and occasionally on small bowls and goblets etc.
I had no idea it could be used on green wood as well. Am I misunderstanding something here or is CA equaly effective for use on green wood as on dry wood ? ?
W.Y.
 
Thanks for all the good advice. I will try the faceplate and waste block idea first...way before I try the woodnut.

When I had my first lathe, I turned a small bowl from some very dry and somewhat spalted Rimu (a New Zealand wood) which had a number of cracks in it that I filled with CA. I used a face place on the "top" of the bowl and turned a tenon, as well as turning the outside to almost the final shape. I mounted the tenon in a chuck (a cheap chinese chuck) and proceeded to drill and then turn the inside of the bowl. Then I sanded the inside of the bowl to 12000MM. Just as I was feeling like I had it the way I wanted it I got a catch while refining the outside "just a tad" and the bowl came off the chuck like feathers off a chicken. It never hit me but the tenon was badly broken.

It nearly broke my heart to have that happen. I mourned over the piece for about two weeks and then I built a plywood compression chuck and re-turned the bottom and finished off the bowl. It turned out pretty nice but in the aftermath I don't have a lot of confidance that I know all the ins and outs of cutting a tenon and using a chuck, so the faceplate on waste block sound pretty good to me.

Here's hoping I can glean enough info from all the generous people on this forum (and WoodCentral, too) to eventually trust my new Axminster.

thanks again...


DWFII
In the High Desert of Central Oregon
 
Thanks a bunch Wally about the CA.
Learn something every day. I just finished rough turning another 12" X 5" deep spruce bowl tonight but I used four 1.5" screws and a faceplate. I feel safer that way but I may get up the nerve to try CA on some smaller ones one time to see how it works.
W.Y.
 
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The way I true up my tennon after drying is to open the chuck half way and use it as a friction chuck use your tailstock and bring it up to the tennon and take light cuts to true it up again.
I learned to do this with the Bill Grumbine DVD I would sug getting a copy well worth the $ IMO
Jim
 
Bob;
Sorry I upset you but I do not feel that I have highjacked this thread in the least and I am not at all offended with your suggestions . I went back and read the original post

*quote;*
I'd like to use a waste block for doing bowls and hollow forms. I want to glue the waste block onto the bottom of a blank and then drill and tap the waste block for my spindle.

However, I'm uncertain as to the best way for face the waste block and especially the blank. I am thinking about trimming up a half section of black locust log for a bowl or hollow form and I want the blank and the waste block to interface as precisely as possible for the best glue joint.
Can someone briefly walk/talk me through the best sequence of procedures to get a good bond?
*end of qoute.*

It is possible that the original poster was not aware of the CA method (wet or dry) for fastening the waste block that he was referring to and I felt that my input would be of some help. After all he did say ** to get a good glue joint** and also **as possible for the best glue joint. **

And as you know as a person that has replied to my posts many times on various forums on the internet for many years that I am not a new poster on the internet as you have suggested.

My apologies if I have offended you or anyone else with my input in this thread and if the moderator(s) sees fit to remove my replies in this thread I will understand completely.
Best regards
W.Y.
 
Jim Ketron said:
The way I true up my tennon after drying is to open the chuck half way and use it as a friction chuck use your tailstock and bring it up to the tennon and take light cuts to true it up again.
I learned to do this with the Bill Grumbine DVD I would sug getting a copy well worth the $ IMO
Jim
Click to expand...
That sounds like a quick way to true up the tendon. I'll definitely try it. Here's another slick trick that works for the Talon Chuck. Dave Hout showed this at a demo at the Cleveland Rockler store. A piece of 3" PVC pipe is a jamb fit over the chuck body with the jaws closed. There is a shoulder at the rear of the chuck the pipe seats against. I cut one for my chuck and trued it up on the lathe I want to pad the edge that goes against the work. He suggests using the synthetic chamois used for drying cars. He said it works for a vacuum chuck as well as a friction chuck. I have a vacuum pump, but don't have the fittings yet, so I haven't tried it. The pipe may work for some of the other chucks as well I’m not sure.
 
I also use the same method as Bill Grumbine showed on the DVD with the chuck and it works great with lathes where the motor is in the head like his is or any other one where the of the motor is to the outside end of the head or under it.
But with lathes like mine and the other ones like Jet etc that use the reeves drive , you can only use the friction chuck method with shallow bowls because the rim of the bowl will hit the end of the motor on deeper ones .
However it is not a problem in this situation. I have been turning some deep bowls lately and I just put a chunk of wood in the chuck and true it up and then glue a piece of course sandpaper on the end of it and that serves as my extended friction chuck. I save that piece for future use because I am presently turning ten 4" to 6" inch deep bowls.
Bring the tailstock up and centre it and true up the tenon and then remove the extension from the chuck and put the trued up tenon into it and turn away at the rest of the bowl.
Where there's a will there's a way.
Hope this tip helps for the many people that are using Reeves Drive lathes.
W.Y.
 
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Bill,

I just ordered the Grumbine video but I'dsure like to see some photos of what you are doing there. Seems like the older I get the less I am able to envision something from a description only. Need to see pics!!😀

tia
DWFII
In the High Desert of Central Oregon
 
DWF11;
Glad you ordered that DVD. As soon as you see the chuck used as a friction chuck on the DVD it will become very obvious.
As they say , . .. . a picture is worth a thousand words so as to your request I just went out into my shop and snapped a picture of the extension I made as a friction chuck to overcome the placement of my motor as it is seen at the back just behind the chuck (large black area) .I have several of these friction chucks for different applications. The one shown has a slight curve on the face where the sandpaper is glued on to conform to the curvature of some bowls. For bowls with a flat bottom I use one with the end of the friction chuck dead flat.
If you still want to see how this is used when mounting a bowl to true up the tenon I could also post a picture of that but this one will probably give you the idea of how some of us are doing it.
W.Y.
82895191.jpg
 
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Thats not the way I do it.
I use the chuck (scroll chuck) by itself as a friction chuck. just bring up your tailstock to the center mark and true it up with light cuts
Im going to finish one of my ambrosia maple bowls tonight or tomorrow If you want I will take some pics of it!
but I know Bill said his lathe will not allow him to just use the chuck by itself
both work just fine Mine just saves a extra step!
Jim
 
Jim;
I understand completely what you are saying. I do it the same way as you with the scroll chuck only on shallow ones where I have clearance to the end of my motor. What I showed was just for deeper bowls where the rim of the bowl would contact the end of the motor . There are many thousands of lathes that are being used every day that are made like mine and are manufactured in the same factory (s) under various well known as well as not so well known brand names. Hopefully my method of using the extension will help some that may never thought of getting around it that way.
Here is a blank I just rough turned and I stuck it back on the lathe in reverse to show how the tenon will be trued up after the bowl has dried.
This shot shows how close the end of my motor is in respect to the face of the jaws of my chuck and how much more clearance I get from the motor by using my extension in the chuck and the friction of the 60 grit sandpaper glued on the end of the extension offers lots of friction to keep the bowl from turning on the chuck extension.

Anything up to 8" I can use the face of the chuck like you do inside the bowl and anything of a bigger diameter than 8" I need to use the extension.

Oh yes. It even shows my broken tool rest 😱 with the part where it broke in the position for truing up the tenon. Kinda handy for an operation like that 😀 😉 Good thing they dont want it back when I receive the new one under warranty. I will now have a 7" one as well as a 12" one :cool2:
W.Y.
82930861.jpg
 
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