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face shields and other safety gear

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Some of the sports gear converted for safety use might be an exception but I have noticed that with face shields, face shield/helmet combo's, anything with adjustable suspension systems, the adjustable system seems to always fail in an accident severe enough to result in injuries. Often it fails in accidents that don't cause injuries of any significance.

My own experience was with an industrial hard hat with the adjustable plastic system. A twenty feet long piece of roughly two and a half inch pipe was used as a brace or bracket and not secured properly at the top end. It was vertical and the free end had quite a running start when it hit me on the side of the head as I was standing near it working. Couldn't see it coming and it hit the side of my hard hat and knocked me flying. The hat had a four inch or longer crease in it and every adjustment torn loose as well as some of the mounting points. I had a headache and a stiff neck, not much to complain about considering what I would have had without the hat on.

There is no doubt that the failure of the suspension serves somewhat as a crumple or crush zone absorbing some of the energy of the impact but it also seems that it is often the weakest point in some of our gear. Any modification would of course make any injury while using the gear our own responsibility but if a small piece of string or two or a plastic cable wrap or two beefed up the protection of my helmet I think I would risk the liability issue. I don't think there is a legal issue to consider anyway because the helmets are rated far lower than to offer protection in the types of injuries turners are getting badly injured in. When the safety gear fails in the accidents I am reading about we were obviously outside it's stated and rated design perimeters so we had no legal expectation of protection.

Brings me to the final thought in this post. The AAW has taken a major interest in safety and is doing what they feel they can. I agree they can't control what we do in our own shops although we may eventually face insurance considerations that can indeed dictate what we can do in our own shop, been there before! One thing I think the AAW may be able to do is consult with some of the safety gear manufacturers and use the clout of numbers to try to get headgear designed specifically for wood turners. Once made, others would certainly find it useful too but I think a higher level of protection than I have with a very popular face shield could be had for very little additional expense. I plan to go to a filtered air system soon but they don't have an impressive safety rating either.

Thoughts? Could the AAW produce numbers of members, an estimate of total wood turners, and money spent by wood turners to try to persuade a manufacturer to make gear that would suit us best or at least much better? At risk of having to buy more than one suspension system, I would like a system that was one time adjustable then fixed permanently in place, maybe just a few plastic push thingies that look like a rivet. Those could be cut out and moved if necessary but would still offer far more strength than current designs alone. Slightly beefed up main assembly to keep weight moderate and at least meet latest standards or a standard we request, beefier suspension so it doesn't fail prematurely as seems the case now, at least in my limited observations. Nothing in the world that is practical to wear is going to protect us in some of the accidents but it does seem we could be doing better at mitigating injuries.

Hu
 
I use well known helmet facshield with built in air filtration (HEPA filter).

I like the particle filtration offered by this unit, but, I am less impressed with the potential impact protection of the face. The 'plastic' face shield component seems too thin to offer substantial protection in the case of a large/heavy object.

As a hockey player I can speak to protective capabilities of hockey helmets and face guards / shields. They are designed for high energy impact. The face guards are available in an open wire cage, combination of lexan plastic shield (for eye protection) and wire cage or lexan shield only covering your full face or just eye protection. Some helmet manufacturers also offer an addional neck guard.

A combination helmet / cage mask run about $80-100. The lexan shield are a little more.

After recent discussions on this forum I may start using a hockey helmet with a combination lexan shield / wire cage for much of my turning saving the Airstream for sanding and particle removal. I might even find a way to combine the two or add a hockey cage/shield to my existing system.
 
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The hat had a four inch or longer crease in it and every adjustment torn loose as well as some of the mounting points. I had a headache and a stiff neck, not much to complain about considering what I would have had without the hat on.
Had the straps not broken, your head would have a 4 inch crease in it or the impact could have broken your neck.

Most helmets and face shields are designed to crumble to absorb the shock. It is also why they are curved, to deflect the object and wash off speed.

I would rather a helmet crumpled than have my neck or head do it.
 
Had the straps not broken, your head would have a 4 inch crease in it or the impact could have broken your neck.

Most helmets and face shields are designed to crumble to absorb the shock. It is also why they are curved, to deflect the object and wash off speed.

I would rather a helmet crumpled than have my neck or head do it.

Very good points.

Also, it is important to understand that most of the kinetic energy of a flying object that hits the helmet directly head on (i.e., not deflected by the curvature of a rounded helmet) get absorbed by the head. The ability to crumple and yield allows the energy to be distributed over a longer period of time which means that the force on the head at any instant in time is much less than if the energy were absorbed instantaneously. Even so, the brain can bounce around in the skull and cause a concussion or appear quiescent, but possibly contribute to problems down the road.
 
just gonna touch on this at the moment

Over thirty-six hours without sleep and I have been on the run hard so the mind is too fuzzy to write a bunch in a technical discussion however where the engineering comes in is for things to either distort and absorb shock or break down at a controlled rate. total failure or total pass through of all force is bad. I see hard hats dropped ten or fifteen feet and break the shell, more often the suspension and shell separate. The suspension in the face shield I am using doesn't look as substantial as that in many of the hard hats.

The shell flexing and absorbing energy was a plus when I was hit. Every adjustment in the suspension coming apart and several mounting points coming loose were failures that contributed to injury.

Have you noticed that there is little mention of automotive crash safety these days? We were supposed to be well above the five mile impact no damage standard by now. However the insurance companies screamed bloody murder when they started seeing accidents with zero property damage reported and severe injuries. The balance was lost and the cars became too much stronger than our bodies. It was a whole lot cheaper to fix cars than people. The same thing happened in NASCAR when they went to smaller cars with the same basic construction. Shorter sections built from the same things were much stiffer. The cars had no give to them and little room to crumple and absorb energy if they did give. They were killing more people in NASCAR races than all of major league open wheel racing combined. The other extreme was racing seventy-five to a hundred years ago when the open wheel cars were so fragile they just balled up like tin foil on impact.

Balance is the key and I don't think we are there yet with the headgear we are typically using. The ANSI ratings say we aren't there too.

Hu
 
Hello Hu........

I haven't been monitoring this forum for a few days, and coincidentally, I've been working on something new, and promising.

Was cruising the local Play It Again Sports the other day, and ran across this softball fielders mask. The mental gears began to turn.....so, I bought it! Cost was $23.99, factory new. This is far more easily used than the hockey mask I've been using. Designed to fit under a baseball hat, and works very well under my standard face shield......quick on and off. There is about 3/4" of padding along the forehead and side of face, along with a chin pad. Comes in adult and children sizes.

As I gather from the salesman, this mask is popular with ladies softball players at third base.....where line drives are frequent. I don't blame the ladies for wanting to preserve their pretty faces! When it comes to my mug, all I am concerned about is coming back out to the shop tomorrow, and resuming my work!

I figure that the face shield affords some amount of protection, but if that fails, I'll be glad to have the fielders guard underneath. Since it's designed to protect from a softball at high speed, it ought to be of value for a turner's purposes.....

I'm glad I have this now, because I'll be more inclined to use it more often than the hockey helmet. Not that I don't see a definite need for the hockey helmet, but this all boils down to convenience in using it. It all depends on how much "pucker factor" you perceive, I guess.......sometimes much more than at other times! In any case, I'll be much more inclined to be protected should a bowl come apart on the lathe.......simply because it's so handy to put on quick and easy. It fits nicely under my regular face shield.....a definite added advantage. Does require an adjustment to the headband of the face shield, but mine is designed with a knob that is quick to adjust.

This isn't a replacement for the hockey helmet. There are times when I'm turning a bowl that really sends the message that this one is dangerous. For those times, I'll be using the hockey helmet for sure.....

I like your idea of having a sports equipment company looking into making one specifically for turners. If I could design one, it might be similar to this softball fielders mask, but with some more wire protection in the front guard. I'd also put a piece directly in the middle, in front of the eyes......or, some way to close the gap up a little bit.

Anyway, here's some more fuel for thought on your thread.......

Later......

ooc
 

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Odie I have a uvex face shield a high safety rating and would protect that throat i can see under your shield plus it is very clear and lots of adjustments.

Ian
 
That is interesting!

Hello Hu........

I haven't been monitoring this forum for a few days, and coincidentally, I've been working on something new, and promising.

Was cruising the local Play It Again Sports the other day, and ran across this softball fielders mask. The mental gears began to turn.....so, I bought it! Cost was $23.99, factory new. This is far more easily used than the hockey mask I've been using. Designed to fit under a baseball hat, and works very well under my standard face shield......quick on and off. There is about 3/4" of padding along the forehead and side of face, along with a chin pad. Comes in adult and children sizes.

As I gather from the salesman, this mask is popular with ladies softball players at third base.....where line drives are frequent. I don't blame the ladies for wanting to preserve their pretty faces! When it comes to my mug, all I am concerned about is coming back out to the shop tomorrow, and resuming my work!

I figure that the face shield affords some amount of protection, but if that fails, I'll be glad to have the fielders guard underneath. Since it's designed to protect from a softball at high speed, it ought to be of value for a turner's purposes.....

I'm glad I have this now, because I'll be more inclined to use it more often than the hockey helmet. Not that I don't see a definite need for the hockey helmet, but this all boils down to convenience in using it. It all depends on how much "pucker factor" you perceive, I guess.......sometimes much more than at other times! In any case, I'll be much more inclined to be protected should a bowl come apart on the lathe.......simply because it's so handy to put on quick and easy. It fits nicely under my regular face shield.....a definite added advantage. Does require an adjustment to the headband of the face shield, but mine is designed with a knob that is quick to adjust.

This isn't a replacement for the hockey helmet. There are times when I'm turning a bowl that really sends the message that this one is dangerous. For those times, I'll be using the hockey helmet for sure.....

I like your idea of having a sports equipment company looking into making one specifically for turners. If I could design one, it might be similar to this softball fielders mask, but with some more wire protection in the front guard. I'd also put a piece directly in the middle, in front of the eyes......or, some way to close the gap up a little bit.

Anyway, here's some more fuel for thought on your thread.......

Later......

ooc

That is very interesting and the price is right! The cushioning and a design to stay on your head better were two of the things I was interested in. A bit tougher shell on the face masks would be nice but I think wearing the fielders mask under a face shield would have prevented some of the broken nose, contusion, and concussion type injuries I have read about. Unfortunately at best it might reduce damage from some of the large chunks slung at high speed.

When I am uncertain about what I am spinning I test spin from the headstock end and put the headstock between me and a direct flight path from what I am spinning. Then I shut down and move to where I want to turn from, where the tailstock is offering some protection and I'm not in the maximum force direction of flight.

Spent the day today building a new lathe stand to replace the roughly twenty year old homemade wooden reloading bench I started off using. It never was sturdy and wasn't designed for this use. This wooden stand is much sturdier and is designed to take 450 pounds of ballast up high designed to dampen vibration.

A fair amount of bolts and glue holding this unit together. I have about two more hours of assembly to complete then haul 12 to 14 of the 35 pound concrete half pads from the barn to go into a shelf designed for them. Built almost entirely from what was on hand, it ain't pretty but hopefully it is solid. I think the wood alone weighs between seventy-five and a hundred pounds so with lathe I should have a total weight between 600 and 650 pounds. Still need leveling feet too but once all is done that should take a little of the rock'n'roll hoochi-coo out of this lightweight machine!

Hu
 
It's now about 2:30am, and after posting earlier, I went out to the shop to rough one bowl, and attach waste blocks to a couple of others. One thing led to another, and since one of my primary shop rules is to follow up on ideas and improvements right away......I ended up modifying the fielder's face guard to better serve my purposes as a turner. I only brazed a couple of rods on the guard, but IMHO, this is much more applicable to the safety concerns of a turner.

This is one reason why I participate on this forum.........I get ideas from others, and by the necessary thinking required to post here, sometimes I lead myself to do a little creative turning of my own cranial gears! If I hadn't posted earlier, I probably wouldn't have come up with this improved safety upgrade of the fielder's face guard.

I believe I'll go back out to the shop, cuz now I'm really jacked, and ready for more of whatever comes.......:cool2:

ooc

BTW: Ian.....If you can manage a photo of your uvex face guard, I know I'm not the only one who would be interested in seeing what you've come up with. Thanks.
 

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Odie the uvex shield is a comercialy made one just Google Uvex face shield comes up as Uvex bionic by Honeywell It may be different over there

Ian
 
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Odie the uvex shield is a comercialy made one just Google Uvex face shield comes up as Uvex bionic by Honeywell It may be different over there

Ian

OK, thanks Ian.......My mistake. I thought you had made something up in your own shop.

The bionic face shield is very popular over here.....probably the same thing as you have. I would think the softball fielder's mask ought to work under the bionic face shield, as well.

ooc
 
yes Odie it is the same cost me $110.00 nz but worth it as well as taking other steps like being aware of whats happening on the lathe and around you ,keeping the speed down and checking the wood.

Ian
 
The bionic face shield is very popular over here.....probably the same thing as you have. I would think the softball fielder's mask ought to work under the bionic face shield, as well.

ooc

Oldie,
Don't let the mask give you a false sense of security.
I know you check your wood, use reasonable speed, and use good Turing technique.

A direct blow to the head with a block of wood can cause brain damage even with the mask.

A better safe guard with suspect wood is to
Not turn it. Too much good wood available
If you decide to turn suspect wood, Secure it with screws in waste areas and with wires and tape over the turned part.
Sometimes you can screw a plywood disk to the blank where the bowl opening will be. Turn the outside tape it with wire rings
Remove the plywood disk. Turn the inside. All quite safely.

Cutting direction and depth of cut is important on all work and especially important on pieces with voids and interrupted cuts.
Be careful
Work safely
Al
 
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But some of it is soooooo pretty!!!!!!Gretch

Right on, Gretch!.......😀

Al......I guess it all depends on any one person's determination of what is do-able, and what isn't. With myself, there are certain limitations of where I would judge what pieces of wood have no indication of risk, what is an acceptable risk, and what has too much risk to turn.......but, as Gretch said.......some wood pieces are such an exceptional possibility.

For me, any risk at all isn't reason enough to not pursue the objective. There are some with "great risk", and some with "minimal risk", and one must calculate for himself at what point to make the determination. Each piece is assessed individually. I may allow a little more risk factor with an exceptional piece of wood, where I would not, if the perceived end result won't justify it......😉

This is why I am making available to myself an extra measure of protection by having the softball/hockey face guards. All the safety precautions in the world won't eliminate risk, and by the very nature of woodturning itself, there is some risk with everything we turn.

Life without risk, is pretty boring......deal with it!

ooc
 
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"put another log on the fire"

But some of it is soooooo pretty!!!!!!Gretch



I just burned several big pieces of wood yesterday. Heavily spalted pecan but a bit past spalted. A more experienced turner could have probably dealt with them but I wasn't comfortable and I just put my lathe on a new stand yesterday; a stand that brings the turning significantly closer to my face than I am used to! I don't know any local turners so time to get the buggy wood away from my "shop" and house.

The old stand was too short, hard to drop tool handles as low as I needed to in order to cut near 45 degrees or even more when shear scraping. The new stand may be too tall but I figured to start off taller, easier to shorten wooden legs than stretch them!

Hu
 
Right on, Gretch!.......😀

Al......I guess it all depends on any one person's determination of what is do-able, and what isn't......

For me, any risk at all isn't reason enough to not pursue the objective. There are some with "great risk", and some with "minimal risk", and one must calculate for himself at what point to make the determination. Each piece is assessed individually. I may allow a little more risk factor with an exceptional piece of wood, where I would not, if the perceived end result won't justify it......😉

ooc

Odie,
We all learn through experience what we can do successfully and we learn to judge( inexactly how stable block of wood is )
And we have to push past past limits to know what we can achieve. We agree on that.

I wasn't real clear in making two points

1. enhancing the stability of the block with screws, tape, wire rings, etc is likely to have more payoff both in safety to you and in keeping the wood in one piece than building a bunker to turn from.

2. The fielders mask looks like added protection that should prevent some broken bones you might get with just a face shield.
It may cushion the blow and reduce the seriousness of concussive force. However you get hit in the head with a block of wood with mass and speed you will likely get a brain injury. Maybe mild, maybe serious.
Wearing the fielders mask is additional protection but you can still get a life threatening injury.

Al
 
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a favor please, and possibly a new thread

Odie,
We all learn through experience what we can do successfully and we learn to judge( inexactly how stable block of wood is )
And we have to push past past limits to know what we can achieve. We agree on that.

I wasn't real clear in making two points

1. enhancing the stability of the block with screws, tape, wire rings, etc is likely to have more payoff both in safety to you and in keeping the wood in one piece than building a bunker to turn from.

2. The fielders mask looks like added protection that should prevent some broken bones you might get with just a face shield.
It may cushion the blow and reduce the seriousness of concussive force. However you get hit in the head with a block of wood with mass and speed you will likely get a brain injury. Maybe mild, maybe serious.
Wearing the fielders mask is additional protection but you can still get a life threatening injury.

Al


Al,

If you have any pictures of how you support wood or could get some in the future it would be appreciated. Possibly that might be a good subject to start a thread on and get pictures of how people support pieces when they go beyond the cling wrap and/or tape level.

I'm pretty sure nobody will argue it is better to keep things from flying at us than it is to try to catch something once it does. We could maybe take one of the old time diving suits and pressurize it to the point we look like the Michelin man to turn in but that would hardly be much fun, not to mention not very productive. The search is for the most effective least obtrusive things we can do to increase safety. I think Odie's fielders mask might be a huge jump. I haven't been to the big city to look at one yet but that sounds like it might be at least as comfortable, maybe even more comfortable than just the face shield and offer considerably better protection as you mention.

I was often the unofficial safety man when I ran small and medium sized crews in the petro-chem plants. We did what we could to prepare for worst case, hard hats, safety glasses, respirators, safety belts and later safety harness, sometimes goggles and various combinations of all of the above along with various types of gloves and safety coverings. One unit I worked in required rubber boots that had steel toes and provided an electrical barrier, these had to be tested daily before start of work. After we did all that we worked very hard to try to be sure little or none of it was needed!

Hu
 
Odie, Was that just an experiment, or do you intend to use the modified face guard? My concern is that you may have softened the steel with the brazing process, plus the brazing may not be strong enough to take the impact. If that is hardened steel, brazing heat may have compromised it's strength. No expert, but would hate to proof test it with a block of wood.
 
Odie, Was that just an experiment, or do you intend to use the modified face guard? My concern is that you may have softened the steel with the brazing process, plus the brazing may not be strong enough to take the impact. If that is hardened steel, brazing heat may have compromised it's strength. No expert, but would hate to proof test it with a block of wood.

Hello Richard......

Yep, I'll be using it......😀

Got it covered!

You will have to look closely how I designed the added bars to take impact. The vertical bar is bent 90o at the top and mates straight on to the top crosspiece. The bottom of the vertical bar is angled and mated to the flat top surface of the middle crosspiece. The added horizontal bar is in front of the two vertical bars of the original guard.

In all cases, impact will be forcing steel against steel, and the brazing is not part of the ability to resist impact.

Since the length of the added bars is so short, hardening is not necessary. Check on it......my bet is none of the sports face guards have hardened cages. I speculate that it would be more than a matter of economical manufacturing, but hardening adversely effects tensile strength, or the ability to bend before breaking. Without doing some serious testing with this aspect in mind, my guess is the ability to bend would be preferable to breaking.

As Al spoke of in his post, there is a point where the face guard may be able to stop an object from striking your face......but, could result in other injuries, like brain concussion, spinal damage, etc.

ooc
 

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I agree that it would not be hard steel, but I disagree that it would just be common cold rolled. You're the one wearing it, so it's your choice to make bets and guesses. Me? I would prefer to not wear home shop modified personal safety equipment.
 
I agree that it would not be hard steel, but I disagree that it would just be common cold rolled. You're the one wearing it, so it's your choice to make bets and guesses. Me? I would prefer to not wear home shop modified personal safety equipment.

The crosspieces I used are long bolts with the threads and bolt heads cut off......not just plain cold rolled steel.

Not trying to change your mind. You are welcome to your thoughts on this, but I'm feeling comfortable with this modification.

ooc
 
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The crosspieces I used are long bolts with the threads and bolt heads cut off......not just plain cold rolled steel.

Not trying to change your mind. You are welcome to your thoughts on this, but I'm feeling comfortable with this modification.

ooc

from the picture , I think that the steel rods were welded together and I doubt that it got heat-treat after the welding
 
from the picture , I think that the steel rods were welded together and I doubt that it got heat-treat after the welding

Why do you doubt it Ray? Do you have experience in the manufacturing of personal safety equipment or worked in the industry? Metallurgy background? I think it's a dangerous precedence to have folks think they can home shop modify personal safety equipment when we are trying to avoid injury from flying projectiles. If I understand the amount of impact these folks are getting, it has to be similar to getting hit by a sledgehammer. I'm not sure I would let someone hit me in the head with a sledgehammer wearing something I brazed together in the garage. And I have done a lot of brazing. Someone with a Home Depot MAP gas rig? Then I really worry. I know I wouldn't let them do it with the flimsy face shield I used to wear!
 
This discussion sounds a lot like the Auto industry. Lets just build bigger, stronger, safer, more expensive cars. Why not just drive safer to begin with?
Pick wood that isn't cracked. Turn at safer speeds. Use the tools in a better manner and stand out of the line of fire as much as possible.
 
John, you can drive as safely as you like. That doesn't stop anyone from rear ending you (or one of the cars behind you) while you are waiting at a stoplight... And sending you through the windshield if you are not strapped in.

Safe practices ALONG with safety equipment, minimizes damage.
 
This discussion sounds a lot like the Auto industry. Lets just build bigger, stronger, safer, more expensive cars. Why not just drive safer to begin with?
Pick wood that isn't cracked. Turn at safer speeds. Use the tools in a better manner and stand out of the line of fire as much as possible.

Interesting comparison John. If we were standing in a room full of woodturners, had no idea if they had been drinking or were distracted, and had no idea of the quality of wood they were turning. Then we could compare driving to turning. What year car do you drive John? Something before seat belts? Or just before air bags? I stay out of the line of fire as much as possible on the highway, but statistically, you aren't going to be missed by everyone. (nor miss everyone) Then, I'm really glad I have air bags around me. A coworker of mine was stopped at a red light, drunk slams into the back of him. They estimated the drunk was traveling over 50mph, no sign of him touching the brakes. The coworker's family is drenched with burning gasoline. He survived for a few days, kids and wife instantly killed. I bet, for the few days he lived longer than them, he wished they had a fuel cell like race cars use, or a safer location for the fuel, instead of a steel can filled with gas behind his kids. I'm glad the auto industry charges me more for safety.
 
I'm just simply saying you can't possibly protect us from everything. We all have to take reasonable caution and evaluate what we do for safety. I'm all for air bags and seatbelts but I spent an entire day working on my trucks shift mechanism. It had about 6 different safety features that tied the brakes to the starter, to the shifter, to the key etc. It was a nightmare to fix and all because somewhere, someplace somebody started the car in gear and ran over someone. We simply can't possibly anticipate every possible idiotic thing that we humans can do. Somewhere along the line we have to take personal responsibility and quit making a law or rule to try and save us.
 
John,

It's likely not because 'someone started a car in gear and ran over someone'

It was likely something like "we have already logged hundreds of such incidents... how many more people need to be killed or injured before we insist that interlocks are implemented?"

I'm sorry that it inconveniences mechanics. But not very sorry, they probably like the additional time billed.
 
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My point is, once a potential or current problem has been identified, it is reasonable to take steps to prevent or mitigate the problem.

It's not terribly reasonable to say "the problem will take care of itself", or "people have to take responsibility for their actions". This doesn't help those affected by the problem (the folks in the hospital, or worse)

So, personal responsibility, mandated safety features, and protective gear all play important roles... none should be dismissed.
 
As an electrician in the automotive industry I was often requested to improve safety and error proofing. This discussion reminds me of a saying we used: "As soon as you make something idiot proof they will come up with a better idiot."

I think one of our best safety equipment is somewhere between our ears. Just reading this thread and considering what can go wrong and how to prevent it will help someone from having a serious accident.

And it might be me...thanks in advance!
 
Bills thread helped me

As an electrician in the automotive industry I was often requested to improve safety and error proofing. This discussion reminds me of a saying we used: "As soon as you make something idiot proof they will come up with a better idiot."

I think one of our best safety equipment is somewhere between our ears. Just reading this thread and considering what can go wrong and how to prevent it will help someone from having a serious accident.

And it might be me...thanks in advance!

Bill's thread about reaching out to the piece to slow the lathe reminds me to keep my hand off the wood. With metal lathes without brakes I often reach out to slide my hand on smooth metal or plastic to slow the lathe, bad practice in itself. I catch myself wanting to do the same thing on the wood lathe and have pulled back my hand a dozen times as it hovered over the wood. Instead of carrying over the bad practice from the metal lathe to wood, I'm going to carry the good practice from the wood lathe to the metal lathe.

Easy to build bad habits and most of us do, often little things. Reading threads can remind us to clean up our own house even if they don't directly pertain to what we are doing.

Hu
 
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