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Everything old is new again

Raul McCai

Raul McCai

Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
469
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90
Location
nj
Haven't posted in a while. Lots of things have been happening to keep me out of the wood shop and off the lathes.
But You may ( or not ) recall my exploration of a shop built version of the Munro hollower. Well I just had my preconceptions handed to me.
Take a look at this image from the MWCTA site under "What's it"
http://www.mwtca.org/images/stories/whats_it_column/160-5.jpg
160-5.jpg
I rather suspect that this is a shielded cutter. They say they are lathe tools.
I guess everything old is new again.
 
probably should go into museum .....thanks for sharing
 
Raul.....

They definitely do look rather ancient. Is that looped steel around the front the cutting edge? I'm not seeing the relationship to the Monroe articulated tool.....or is that the one you're referencing? You probably should give us a little more information about what this tool is supposed to do......😕

ko
 
Rather unusual. Someone had an imagination, building tools for specific operations. I was thinking that they looked like something that was used during the Inquisition, applied hot or cold. 😱
 
odie said:
Raul.....

They definitely do look rather ancient. Is that looped steel around the front the cutting edge?
Click to expand...

'pears to be just that. three of them appear to be hooded.


I'm not seeing the relationship to the Monroe articulated tool.....or is that the one you're referencing?
Click to expand...

Sans the articulated part. It seems to be a hooded french hook variant for bowl making. Which would make a lot of sense as ancient wood workers were more into the practical than the ornamental. Bowls were needed. Imagine the ancient turner frustrated at his (or his student's) ineptness with the traditional hook and working with a blacksmith coming up with this.
The Eureka moment.
 
The concept for limiting the depth of cut has been used everywhere. Chainsaw teeth, circular blades for tablesaws, radial arm saws, and handheld circle saws, router bits, and wherever self-feeding is a problem.
 
Oh no, hamster on the wheel just went into high gear.... Variation on hook and ring tools, and I have been thinking about some thing like this for hollowing out scoops.... I would guess they are used at a skew angle rather than scraping angle......

robo hippy
 
Speaking of old becoming the new again......I mentioned awhile back that I've been converting back to a traditional, or standard grind from those grinds possible using the vari-grind jig. This continues to be my direction, as I'm finding that the standard grind is capable of attaining a surface quality that is as good.....and better than the Ellsworth style of grinds. The reason I say "better", is the traditional grind invariably has a cutting edge with an angle that is more directly opposed to the direction of the shaft. I'm finding this to be an advantage that can be used with enhanced and successful results. Not only that, but the traditional grind is quicker to set-up on the grinder, it's much faster to do, as well.

The traditional grind is where my roots are, and I'm re-discovering the versatility that some of the old masters once knew. I don't suspect very many are going to agree with my assessments, here......because the Ellsworth style of grinds are so ingrained into the woodturning culture. They have a look of functionality they may not live up to, when making a "hands on" comparison to the capabilities of the older methods.

Anyway, that's my two cents..........
 
odie said:
The traditional grind is where my roots are, and I'm re-discovering the versatility that some of the old masters once knew. I don't suspect very many are going to agree with my assessments, here......because the Ellsworth style of grinds are so ingrained into the woodturning culture. They have a look of functionality they may not live up to, when making a "hands on" comparison to the capabilities of the older methods.
Click to expand...

Basically it comes down to what tools we have mastered and what tools we are comfortable with and what we turn.
The Ellsworth, 40/40, Michelson grinds are used because they work and require little sanding of the turned surface. The traditional grinds work too.

I find nothing tops the Ellsworth for turning natural edge and the interrupted cut work.
Roughing with a side ground beats the traditional grind hands down.
I also prefer the the Ellsworth for Turning off center work, square edge work,
The pull cut with the Ellsworth is the closed cut to a skew one can make with a gouge.

You specialize in medium and small bowls. If you did natural edge or multi center work or roughed large bowls or hollow forms you might reach different conclusions.

Al
 
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hockenbery said:
Basically it comes down to what we tools we have mastered and what tools we are comfortable with and what we turn.
The Ellsworth, 40/40, Michelson grinds are used because they work and require little sanding of the turned surface. The traditional grinds work too.
I find nothing tops the Ellsworth for turning natural edge and the interrupted cut work.
Roughing with a side ground beats the traditional grind hands down.
I also prefer the the Ellsworth for Turning off center work, square edge work,
The pull cut with the Ellsworth is the closed cut to a skew one can make with a gouge.

You specialize in medium and small bowls. If you did natural edge or multi center work or roughed large bowls or hollow forms you might reach different conclusions.

Al
Click to expand...

Well, Al.......It wasn't my intention to evaluate anyone else's work, but since you did, I guess it's ok to respond in kind. You specialize in shapes that are simplistic and easily sanded, which tends to suggest your requirements are for more sanding from the start. These simple shapes tend to be bland, so you do like so many do, and rely on embellishment to create any aesthetic appeal. If you were to turn more difficult shapes, your appreciation for the traditional grind may be subject to different conclusions, as well.

After having said that......Some of my shapes are simple, also. So, this doesn't suggest simplicity can't have a special appeal.......but I don't specialize in simple shapes🙂

ko
 
image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg
odie said:
It wasn't my intention to evaluate anyone else's work, but since you did, I guess it's ok to respond in kind. You specialize in shapes that are simplistic and easily sanded, which tends to suggest your requirements are for more sanding from the start.
Click to expand...
To talk about tools you use without reference to the work done with them is sort of meaningless.
Your work is well done but it has flat surfaces and is medium to small in scale 14" in diameter or less. So you find value in a tool capable of making a flat surface. The tools effective on these forms are not ones that would necessarily be effective on other forms.

I go for pleasing curves - simple and I hope ellegant. To me a flat is a defect in the curve.

I do all my sanding on hollow forms and natural edge bowls off the lathe. I cannot sand a form a lot without ruining the curve or a natural edge without compromising the rim thickness. My goal is a surface I can sand with 220. Some i can sand with 320. Sometimes I get a spot that needs 180.

You have a misconception - embellishment does not hide a poorly turned form or a poorly turned surface. The finished form and surface are the starting point for the sandcarving I am doing.

Below are some work in progress photos the form staine before and after the sandcarving before final finish was applied. Small form about 11" diameter.
 
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Haven' used a swept back gouge in years because it doesn't fit into my turning style. That sweep is made for using the wings for the high shear angle. Since my style is to hold the tool level, I prefer a more rounded and open flute where the nose had a big sweet spot. Properly used, neither type has any advantage over the other. Less Filling! Tastes Great! Tenon! Recess!..... I do get cleaner start sanding surfaces with dry wood than wet wood.

I did check out the Johannes grind, and it is identical to my platform sharpened swept back grinds... You just relieve the bevel. 40/40 is a combination tool to me, good at detail, fair for bowl finish cuts, poor for heavy stock removal. But then, I prefer scrapers for just about everything. 'I may be crazy, but I'm nuts!'

robo hippy
 
odie said:
Well, Al.......It wasn't my intention to evaluate anyone else's work, but since you did, I guess it's ok to respond in kind. You specialize in shapes that are simplistic and easily sanded, which tends to suggest your requirements are for more sanding from the start. These simple shapes tend to be bland, so you do like so many do, and rely on embellishment to create any aesthetic appeal. If you were to turn more difficult shapes, your appreciation for the traditional grind may be subject to different conclusions, as well.

After having said that......Some of my shapes are simple, also. So, this doesn't suggest simplicity can't have a special appeal.......but I don't specialize in simple shapes🙂

ko
Click to expand...

First Mr @odie the tone here is bordering on condescending, please be more civil and consider this a warning. And yes, Mr @hockenbery likes Ellsworth grinds, like he likes Green Eggs and Ham (there was a kind of rhythm and repetition to his post). And he was obviously a bit miffed and he baited you and you dropped it, for that I am pleased.

And having used the side grind for years, I would say that you are missing one of the more delightful cuts it can do. There is a finish cut that is achieved by having the flute face straight up, and cutting with a very small section of the lower inside flute. The part of the gouge that is presented is cutting at a shear angle. It is often overlooked because it takes some practice and done improperly, takes some vocabulary.

I think there is room for all grinds, but don't discount it's abilities just because you don't use it. In the right hands, I have seen both do marvelous things far beyond my capabilities.
 
A good rule of thumb when reading forum posts is to recognize that there are numerous ways to interpret the written words of others ... that's probably the reason why English teachers and lawyers exist. If you are convinced that somebody isn't wagging a civil tongue (or keyboard) then let a moderator know and we will sort things out. Taking matters into your own hands and escalating a disagreement isn't the right course of action and runs the risk of putting you in bad stead with the moderators.
 
Steve Worcester said:
And having used the side grind for years, I would say that you are missing one of the more delightful cuts it can do. There is a finish cut that is achieved by having the flute face straight up, and cutting with a very small section of the lower inside flute. The part of the gouge that is presented is cutting at a shear angle. It is often overlooked because it takes some practice and done improperly, takes some vocabulary.

I think there is room for all grinds, but don't discount it's abilities just because you don't use it. In the right hands, I have seen both do marvelous things far beyond my capabilities.
Click to expand...

You know, Steve.......I used the side grind, or Ellsworth for the better part of 25 years, and it was just last year that I began phasing them out.....mostly, but not entirely. Because I'm decided to do this, it doesn't mean my way is better......just that I feel I'm doing better with the traditional grind. I am aware of the cut that you are doing with the flute straight up, and have used it quite a bit.

Al......I think you may have a reconsideration, if you were to see the kind of results I'm currently getting......just as you probably feel I'm not seeing all the evidence, as you see them.

ko
 
odie said:
Al......I think you may have a reconsideration, if you were to see the kind of results I'm currently getting......just as you probably feel I'm not seeing all the evidence, as you see them.
Click to expand...

Be nice if you had a video clip to show us.
If you watched any videos I have posted you know pretty well what I can do with the side ground gouge and the surface I get. I use the gouge well but there are quite a few folks that are better and faster.

Here is a short video roughing the outside of natural edge cherry bowl.
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ0fC5Rk6h4

I do the finish cuts when it is in the chuck.
 
I can think of several tools in my armory that can make the same cuts... More than one way to skin a cat fish.....

robo hippy
 
No idea on sizes. I do want to get some metal and try them out..... Maybe on a metal handle, but like the idea of the hoop... A spoon carver friend also is getting into forging... I did find out that drill rod comes in bar stock and not just round stock...

robo hippy
 
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