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End Grain

Joined
May 27, 2004
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Hi all,

I think someone should write a book, and do a video, "Torn End Grain, And, It's Prevention"!! Seems I have more trouble with that than anything these days. Shear scraping don't always work for me.

What's your solution for it?

Thanks,

W.C.
 
There really is only one way to ensure that you don't suffer from torn end grain, and that's a properly, and freshly, sharpened gouge used for the finest finishing cut.

I don't think scrapers are really of use for removing torn end grain effectively. Once torn it needs to be cut away. You can sand it out...eventually...and whilst running the risk of altering the shape you had previously cut with the tools. Summer growth will sand out and create more problems than the TEG presented in the first place.

A trick to use is to dampen the timber around the EG areas prior to taking the final cut. You can use water or oil, but water is better. This raises the grain and as you take that ultra-fine finishing cut with your freshly sharpened gouge it cuts much more cleanly.

For practice try mounting a bowl blank in a softish wood. Don't worry about the outside too much, just achieve a general bowl shape to follow internally, and then proceed to hollowing the bowl out. Treat each cut as your last and try to achieve the finish you would like on the completed bowl. Once achieved take another few cuts, deepening the bowl, and turn to a finish once again. By the time the bowl reaches what would be it's true final depth/wall thickness, you should feel more confident on a real bowl. Once you have mastered this on a soft wood a hardwood bowl should seem like a holiday.

If you absolutely must use a scraper then the same rule applies...sharpen the tool before you take the cut, you might even hone the top surface to raise a finer burr, and then supporting the outside of the bowl and the top of the scraper work from the rim of the bowl to the base in as smooth and fluid a stroke as, possible, taking the lightest of cuts possible.

The size of bowl, steepness of sides, smoothness of curve from rim to base Etc. all have role to play here, too. Your gouge needs to have a grind appropriate to these factors. A conventional grind on you bowl gouge will struggle at the transition point between wall and base of the bowl if the curve is less than an even curve, as the heel will rub quite badly. If you shorten the bevel it can get around the bend with less resistance, making for a kinder cut. Grinding a secondary bevel often helps; it needs only to be short, 0.5mm or so, and can be ground away afterwards.

Good luck

Andy
 
Sharp tools, and cut across the fibers downhill, same as always. That said, are you speaking of end grain at the bottom of a turned box or those two spots at the bottom of a bowl, or the end of the knob you're turning?

Same answer, different tools. I like the 90 degree gouge on the bottom of boxes. Mine's a Termite, lots of others based on rings or hooked knives. I use forged pattern gouges for the final cuts inside bowls and keep my (curved) rest in close so I get best control. The bevel's the same angle all the way, so it doesn't roll and grab, but if I lean it a touch left and move the handle down a bit it can take broad shavings I can see through or if I lift the handle, narrow shavings that twist ten times per inch. Also does a credible job on the end grain of knobs and beads, and is the only thing to use with coves. I really like my beading tool with the long single bevel for cutting and rolling off the end grain, though. Grabby, but not as bad as a skew about leaving heel bruises when I'm paring end grain. If you've got a big roughing gouge, you can use the long edge to do pretty much the same with a bit more stability where you have room.

Now, if you're cutting highly figured wood, as I was yesterday when trying to get a couple burls out from underfoot, you're on your own. What's down and across one place is up and rip three inches further along the circumference. Only advice there is to cut thin as if it were consistent and real grain and break out the 100 grit.
 
Andy, and MM, Thank you both for your comments.

I use Ellsworth's gouge, his grinding jig, and have watched his video hundred's of times, at least, so it seems. I do not enjoy the success he achieves on the video. But, now, in retrospect, I need to try his methods on a harder wood, and see if my success rate, using his cuts from his video, doesn't vastly improve.

I mainly posted this out of frustration with my severely sore neck, & of course, I was having torn endgrain problems with the bowl I was working on. Problem is with the outside of the bowl. Also, I failed to mentioned, the wood was Silver Maple, which is in good supply around here. SM, being a softer hardwood, is mostly the problem, I think. And, I did try all the fiber stiffening methods that I could recall, but, I've never tried water in order to raise the grain. I'll try that next time. I also think I need to pull out a harder wood for my next bowl. Should make the torn grain less of a factor, and, should ease tension build-up in the neck area.

W.C.
 
WC,

Try a light coat of shellac to lock in the fibers and stiffen them where they will cut. I keep a small bottle of shellac at my lathe just for this purpose. Could do the same thing with any sanding sealer.
 
<<<"Try a light coat of shellac">>> That's one of the remedies that I tried, and it did help.

BTW, from one Wilford, to another, not too many of us around. Just you, me and Wilford Brimley.

W.C.= Wilford Carloss
 
W.C. Turner said:
I use Ellsworth's gouge, his grinding jig, and have watched his video hundred's of times, at least, so it seems. I do not enjoy the success he achieves on the video.
Problem is with the outside of the bowl. Also, I failed to mentioned, the wood was Silver Maple, which is in good supply around here. SM, being a softer hardwood, is mostly the problem, I think. W.C.

You have conflicting information, as you see, which is a pretty good indication that neither method works on its own, but rather there is a third option which does. Andy wants water or oil, both of which soften the fiber, though letting the water dry will stand it up, while Wilfred wants Shellac, which fills the gaps and stiffens it. I also note from WC the answers of wax and lacquer. Once again, methods with opposite effects.

Answer is in the first paragraph, I feel. It's the gouge, the grind, and the position. Not owning an Ellsworth gouge or video, I use a large-radius gouge for my final trim. I'm not going to suggest the roughing gouge, which I use often, and which produced the surface on wet wood that you see upper left. No sense opening that can of worms any wider. The wood is soft maple (A rubrum) of our local variety, and if you look closely, there's a bit of tear left of center where I pushed a bit too fast. It's not pick-up, because it's on the laydown side of center.

The wood in the demo is yellow birch, which is perhaps even a bit pickier about fuzzing than soft maple, though harder. The gouge is not in use, rather held in one hand while I juggle with the other to get the picture. I think the shaving path, which is outlined in dust shows the orientation of use well. I cut above center, with the top of the gouge slightly rotated to about 2:00, and the handle down to give the angle shown. Makes the shaving tapered, leaving a feather off the trailing edge of the gouge. The bevel is not rubbing full width, but rather along a considerable portion parallel to the edge. Slicing, mostly. You can see the curve formed by the gouge in the cutaway to interpret the lean.

The surface slice I took is, as you can see by the annual rings in the last picture, from the right of center, at the pickup zone where you have to cut uphill. It's an easy 150, or a slightly longer 180/220 to begin sanding. Speed of advance along the rest is slow, which leaves close ridges and lets the wood cut itself rather than pushing and potentially crushing it into its fellows. Since I'm not levering with the bevel fully in contact perpendicular to the cut, I get no heel marks from compression either. Soft maple and cherry are real buggers in that regard.

If you're bored, you might want to try something similar. You don't have to bend, because you're cutting slightly above centerline as you would with a spindle, following the progress by looking at the opposite edge. Same cut works inside, from below centerline, with nearly the same posture. Stand upright and following the progress opposite. Can't follow it on the near side anyway, because the shavings pile up so rapidly.
 

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I have read all the very good suggestions a show to avoid torn end grain, and I agree that is is quite difficult, see impossible to succeed if using a scraper.
How ever, even with the best gouge and the best turner, you might have problems with some woods, especially when your turn a bowl with the fibre of the wood perpendicular to the axis of the lathe…
The theory says that “you should lay the short fibre on the long oneâ€Â, therefore you should turn the exterior of the bowl from the centre on… If you have end grain problems, then try the contrary, sometimes it works… But, you’ll always have situations in which nothing works…. Some then use a very deluded sealant, soak the wood with it and then turn… Others just try with a long and delicate sending…
 
W.C. Turner said:
Hi all,

I think someone should write a book, and do a video, "Torn End Grain, And, It's Prevention"!! Seems I have more trouble with that than anything these days. Shear scraping don't always work for me.

What's your solution for it?

Thanks,

W.C.

As you probably know, when you turn a bowl, you cut through endgrain twice on each revolution. In addition, as you pass through the endgrain, you also start to cut 'uphill' until you reach face grain again. That is usually where the gouge causes the subsurface damage that you see as 'torn grain'.
The suggestions to dampen the wood or to use some shellac to stiffen the grain will be helpful only if the gouge you are using is freshly sharpened. I would also suggest that you use a freshly sharpened gouge or scraper to 'shear-cut' that region of the bowl. The suggestions work mostly because of the high rake angle of the edge of the gouge (Ellsworth or 'side-ground' bowl gouge) or scraper. The relatively blunt bevel angel and the high flanges on the gouge are what enable the gouge to successfully 'turn the corner at the lower side wall of the bowl. That is why David Ellsworth's internal shearing cut works. Wetting the wood only makes it somewhat easier to cut. However, it does not entirely overcome a dull gouge or cutting with a small rake angle. You can get more information on this in Mike Darlow's video/dvd, 'The Practice of Woodturning' on the second tape/dvd disk in the set. According to Mike Darlow, the bowl gouge, scraper, or ring tool are the tools best designed to address this problem.

I also turn a lot of siver/sugar maple and have experienced very few serious problems when using these techniques. I really suggest that you use this information rather than attempt to sand this problem away. The volume of wood you would have to remove by sanding is enormous. Using a cutting technique will preserve the shape of your piece and be infinately more efficient. I hope that you find this useful,

Matt
 
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