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Ellsworth grind

J

Jerry Ellsaesser

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can someone tell me how to set up the verigrind to get the ellsworth gouge grind?.....thanks much Jerry tried a search but came up with every thing but.......
 
Getting a swept back profile is a matter of how far to the side you roll the tool. Only difference is the bevel angle. So should be the same setting for your standard gouges. Well, I think anyway, I free hand sharpen.

robo hippy
 
The two important dimensions that enable any jig to duplicate the Ellsworth jig are:

  • The distance from the tip of the pivot arm to the tip of the gouge is 9¾ inches. There is an endless combination of pivot arm angles and gouge protrusion distances that can give you this dimension, but you could start with the pivot arm at 45° and a protrusion of 2 inches and see how close this gets you to the right distance. Tweak one or the other until the distance is right. There is a caveat -- do not use some off-the-wall extreme angle or protrusion or else you may not be able to satisfy both this and the next step.
  • With the Varigrind arm in the Wolverine, adjust the length of the arm on the Wolverine so that the tip of the gouge contacts the grinding wheel at an angle of 60° - 65°. David Ellsworth says that using his jig and using the set up dimensions that he specifies, the angle will be a perfect 60°, however his calculations are off because the angle is a perfect 65°. So, the exact angle is your choice, but it really isn't super critical. I have my own set up for a Tormek to get something that approximates an Ellsworth/Irish/swept back grind with a nose angle of 65°.
 
Thanks much for the info...first time I heard the 9.75 ...will give it a try today and see how it works for me...thanks much ...Jerry
 
"Vertical Solution" Sharpening Jig

Jerry:

If you want a foolproof, accurate, and repeatable system to produce a perfect Ellsworth grind on your Ellsworth style gouges (e.g. 5/8" diameter steel, 1/2" parabolic flute), you might investigate the grinding jig system produced by Don Geiger. Have a look at:

Geiger's Solutions Pro Sharp System

I have the original, older version of the 'Vertical Solution' and have been using it for years. Don's original sharpening jig system was designed to produce the Ellsworth grind specifically, and its support arm simply fits into the Wolverine's mounts at your grinder. The system includes a spacer jig that allows accurate adjustment of the distance of the jig's pocket from the wheel, which compensates for wheel wear and diameter reduction in use, making this adjustment parameter "right on" every time. Using a "standard" Ellsworth grinding jig (with it's fixed angle) and a standard extension of the tool's tip from the jig, makes all of the settings needed extremely repeatable and quick. It will also work with a Vari-Gind jig, once you standardize it to match the Ellsworth angle and tip extension distance - the 9.75" Bill mentioned.

The original version I have allows very easy sharpening of an Ellsworth gouge in 30 seconds or less (with experience) that removes only a very small amount of metal. I have used this system with both of my Ellsworth gouges, with a 15V Glaser gouge, and several gouges from Thompson Lathe Tools - it performs very well with all.

I can't comment on the newer "Pro Sharp 4X" system since I have not used it.

This might be an alternative for you that makes sharpening the swept-back profile extremely easy and very repeatable as to set-up and minimal metal removal.

As with everything related to woodturning, practice makes perfect....

Good luck!

Rob Wallace
 
Jerry Ellsaesser said:
Thanks much for the info...first time I heard the 9.75 ...will give it a try today and see how it works for me...thanks much ...Jerry
Click to expand...

It is possible that nobody has mentioned it before. All that I did was set up an Ellsworth gouge in the Ellsworth jig and then measured the distance from the tip of the arm to the point of the gouge. I have a Vari-Grind jig somewhere -- probably in the attic as I have not seen it for a few years, so I can't confirm what Vari-Grind angle and protrusion will give you the exactly right distance, but the numbers that I gave you previously should give you a reasonable starting point. Perhaps Steve's article will give the right dimensions. The arm on the Ellsworth jig is about 5¾" long and is at an angle of 45° and the tool protrudes 2" from the jig. Using this information might help in setting the Vari-Grind to give the same distance from end of arm to tip of tool. Of course, another possibility is to shell out a few bucks and get a real honest-to-goodness Ellsworth jig.
 
Read thru this thread. Don Geiger system seems to not be available and the Ellsworth jig seems to not be available. So, should I understand that my options are to make a jig or to use the vari-grind jig set at 9.75 inch’s from pivot point to tip. Then adjust from there to get the 60degree angle.
I would love to just buy a proper jig for achieving the Ellsworth grind but cannot find one.
 
Todd Bowen said:
Read thru this thread. Don Geiger system seems to not be available and the Ellsworth jig seems to not be available. So, should I understand that my options are to make a jig or to use the vari-grind jig set at 9.75 inch’s from pivot point to tip. Then adjust from there to get the 60degree angle.
I would love to just buy a proper jig for achieving the Ellsworth grind but cannot find one.
Click to expand...
You don't need anything special if you have the Wolverine with Vari-grind. My V-arm is set for a 2" protrusion. OneWay recommends 1.75" but it doesn't matter much. 2" gives you more room to get those wings ground. From there I set the Vari-grind to the 4th notch. The Vari-grind is horrible in this regard. 4th notch? 4th notch from where? I'll probably have to take a picture when I'm home. From there you move the V-arm until you are at 55 or 60 degrees on the nose of the gouge. Mine are all 55 degrees, or at least they were when I first shaped them.

I learned this technique from www.turnawoodbowl.com. I purchased his sharpening course. I think it was $80. It was worth the money to me. Your mileage may vary. He shows how to create the profile and sharpen the various grinds like 40/40, microbevel, Ellsworth, etc. This article might get you started without buying the course: https://turnawoodbowl.com/wolverine-vari-grind-jig-bowl-gouge-sharpening/ .
 
Kent Reisdorph said:
You don't need anything special if you have the Wolverine with Vari-grind. My V-arm is set for a 2" protrusion. OneWay recommends 1.75" but it doesn't matter much. 2" gives you more room to get those wings ground. From there I set the Vari-grind to the 4th notch. The Vari-grind is horrible in this regard. 4th notch? 4th notch from where? I'll probably have to take a picture when I'm home. From there you move the V-arm until you are at 55 or 60 degrees on the nose of the gouge. Mine are all 55 degrees, or at least they were when I first shaped them.
Click to expand...

The Ellsworth jig also says set for 2" for the 1/2" gouge and 1.75 for the 3/8". I use both gouges and sharpen using those measurements so I'm sure you're correct on the Vari-grind. I seldom take mine out of the drawer these days having the jig.
 
Kent Reisdorph said:
You don't need anything special if you have the Wolverine with Vari-grind. My V-arm is set for a 2" protrusion. OneWay recommends 1.75" but it doesn't matter much. 2" gives you more room to get those wings ground. From there I set the Vari-grind to the 4th notch. The Vari-grind is horrible in this regard. 4th notch? 4th notch from where? I'll probably have to take a picture when I'm home. From there you move the V-arm until you are at 55 or 60 degrees on the nose of the gouge. Mine are all 55 degrees, or at least they were when I first shaped them.

I learned this technique from www.turnawoodbowl.com. I purchased his sharpening course. I think it was $80. It was worth the money to me. Your mileage may vary. He shows how to create the profile and sharpen the various grinds like 40/40, microbevel, Ellsworth, etc. This article might get you started without buying the course: https://turnawoodbowl.com/wolverine-vari-grind-jig-bowl-gouge-sharpening/ .
Click to expand...
Thanks so much. Will give it a go. I am reasonably strong at sharpening but wanting to try Ellsworth’s for my learning. Always learning.
 
Kent Reisdorph said:
Interesting. I sharpen 3/8, 1/2, and 5/8 gouges with the same setting.
Click to expand...

I may try to sharpen the 3/8 at the 2" setting and see how I like it. Or if it even makes a significant difference.
 
Build your own. It's easy to build a version of the Ellsworth. His is designed for 5/8" gouges. I put a notch in the bottom of mine to center narrower tools and put a piece if spring steel on the top to hold the tool. The Ellsworth is on the top. I set thr rod angle at 45 degrees just like the Ellsworth.
 

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I have almost every sharpening system available in my shop right now. Guess what they all work! And they work as advertised. What you may find is that one of them works better for you than the others. The main thing they all do is give you a sharp tool. I've never sharpened a tool with any of these systems that couldn't be used in woodturning. But you might find one that works the best for you. After using them all I have found that the Vector Grind Fixture works the best for me.
 
Bill Blasic said:
After using them all I have found that the Vector Grind Fixture works the best for me.
Click to expand...
Agreed. The big advantage of the Vector concept is getting less acute wing angles on long wing grinds, which makes the entire wing less aggressive and easier to use. The tormek gouge jig approximates the vector grind very closely. Other jigs can be used with a “pocket base” with holes for the jig bottom tip offset to each side like the Vector. None of these other approaches give the ability to use tools as short as what the Vector does tho.
 
Is the Vector fixtures still available. I read that he was retiring. I built my own. I measured all the dimensions from a friend's but they aren't critical. The idea like all other jigs is repeatability of the grind. Not the exact grind.
 
People have developed settings for the Wolverine system to mimic just about any grind. They did it by experimenting, and you could, too. Instead of expensive tools, just get a steel rod of the appropriate diameter, stick it in the jig and adjust away. You won't end up with a usable tool with a flute, but once you have the settings for the desired grind, you'll be able to reproduce with a real tool.
 
Packard Woodworks shows the Ellsworth Jig in Stock. Captain Eddie had videos on how to build your own copy of the Ellsworth.

I use the Ellsworth jig on the Geiger Solutions raised arm and get easy results.

As Bill so wisely says, all systems will work. Just what works best for you. I have always liked the Geiger systems as they are easiest (for me) to get decent results when I haven't turned for awhile and am re-learning everything.
 
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