Ellsworth Gouge: Shaping/Sharpening

[Zach LaPerriere]

Hi All,

I've been turning bowls the last six months or so almost exclusively with an Ellsworth grind to become fairly efficient at using just one gouge to complete a bowl. It's coming along well, but I have a few finer questions. I've reached my own conclusions, but I still don't feel that I have the experience to really know what's most effective. If anyone has thoughts or advice, I would really appreciate your comments.

1. The nose. In looking at David Ellsworth's video and book, and in referencing the Packard template, I see a little variation in the nose grind. Some are a bit pointy, others are more blunt.
I'm thinking a moderately blunt nose will create the best interior finishing cuts because the cutting angle is steeper, and the cutting surface will be reduced. In theory, this seems as close to the concept of sheer scraping the interior as a turner can get. In practice, I can't really tell a difference, having sharpened several gouges with various degrees of bluntness.

2. Honing. I hone only for finish cuts, and I get better results. I use a 180 CBN wheel (w/ an Ellsworth jig) and a curved CBN hone just on the flute, but not the bevel. I just take a few pass with the CBN hone to knock the burr off on the flute side. A while back I would hit the bevel with a diamond hone, and it seemed to help get a better finish.

3. Lathe speed. For finishing cuts, especially on the exterior, speed has been my friend. I turn at the upper end of what's considered safe for the size of bowl.

4. 5/8 vs. 1/2 gouge. I have Henry Taylor 5/8 and 1/2 cryos, a PM 5/8 cryo, and some regular HSS that I keep for roughing. I get the same use out of a 5/8 as I do a 1/2, and for the life of me, I haven't figured out what a 1/2 Ellsworth gouge is for, even on tiny 3-4" bowls.

I should add that I'm turning softer woods: lots of Red Alder, and a few softwoods: Western Hemlock, Sitka Spruce, and Alaska Yellow Cedar. When I've tried more traditional woods like plum, my finish cuts seem much better, particularly on the interior. I'd say I average 180 finish on the exterior and 120 to 180 (on a good day) on the interior, but the finish quality seems to vary more than I'd like.

I know a lot just comes down to practice and experience, but I'm hoping for more experienced advice to guide my practice.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Perhaps you are worrying too much about something that is a nit. Whatever works for you is the right grind. I have about 7 or 8 bowl gouges and when I am turning, I typically just grab a sharp one and continue on rather than stopping to sharpen the one that I was using. This is especially true when I am doing some fine detail shear cutting or shear scraping where the keen edge doesn't last very long. As to the grind, I have a couple gouges with an Ellsworth shape and the others are various unnamed swept back grinds with nose angles ranging from about 40° to 70°. Sometimes there is a real need for a particular gouge, but most of the time it doesn't matter.

For most things-that aren't huge, the shank diameter is not very important. Obviously, a 3/4" gouge might be too big for miniature work and a 1/4" gouge would vibrate to much for a 200 pound hunk of wood.

According to DE, the nose ought to be rounded with a broad curve like a half circle and I like that shape. Johannes Michelsen sharpens his gouges with a very pointed nose. I have used that shape a bit. It works great if you are doing precision thin turning, but I think that it is not for beginners ... nor old fogies for that matter ... until the learn how to properly use it. 🙄

 

[john lucas]

I agree with Bill. I have about 5 or 6 bowl gouges and have ground them differently and played with them and the differences in cutting with skilled hands is so sublte I don't worry about the differences. I pick a tool most often for the tip angle. I have some ground at 40, some at 55 and one at 70. The more acute angle is used when I need a clean cut, the 70 is used when I can't rub the bevel with one of the others. Speed is good but more for the reason of taking a smaller bite per revolution. I think the biggest problem with not getting clean cuts is forcing the tool to cut. And forcing can be subtle, just a little more push than is really needed to get a clean cut. I find that when I speed the wood up it's easier for me to take what is in effect a lighter cut so it actually cuts the fibers instead of trying to lift them.
The radius of the nose I like rounded. I guess we will call it a fingernail grind. When you rotate a gouge to about 2 oclock or maybe what some call 45 degrees the wood comes across that tip at a shear angle. With a rounded nose it's easier to get this shear angle. A more pointed nose and you may be cutting partly with the left side of the wing and it's more blunt angle of attack. Really hard to describe in works. I try to look at the actual cutting area in relation to how a skew cuts. A paring cut has the wood coming over the edge at about 90 degrees and the cut isn't as clean. With the skew held so the wood approaches the edge at 45 degrees you get a much cleaner(but slower) cut. Steeper is cleaner but again the cut is slower. If you look watch how the wood comes over the various parts of the bowl gouge edge you can see how rotating the tool even slightly can change how the wood comes across the tip.
Still I find that just about any gouge cuts cleaner with the proper feed rate which is often enhanced by a faster surface speed of the wood and less forward pressure on the gouge.
I'm a fan of the Hunter carbide tools. Most people who use them quickly figure out that a faster surface speed of the wood creates a cleaner cut. This is partly because they won't take as large of a cut as a bowl gouge and consequently and with the roughly 30 degree cutting angle of the tip they cut really clean. couple that with the smaller but rounded radius of the tip and you kind of get a really good cutting angle presented to the wood. The Hunter Osprey when used with a push cut is very similar to the nose of the Ellsworth grind so it's very easy to use and with that 30 degree cutting angle you get a very very clean cut.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnFdDo0jxGU

 

[Raul McCai]

I have about 7 or 8 bowl gouges and when I am turning, I typically just grab a sharp one and continue on rather than stopping to sharpen the one that I was using.

Now THERE's an idea.
I run back and forth to my grinder.
Worse I placed the grinders in a "special" ( meaning more remote) room on the theory that the abrasive dust won't circulate so badly
So when my tool is dill I'm going for a hike.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Thank you, Bill and John

I appreciate both of your generosity, and your honesty in saying that I'm essentially overthinking.

Great points John, on cutting angle as well as cutting speed. I didn't really understand the cutting speed/feed rate advice when I was first starting, because I didn't have the tool control to take slow, light passes. I was also scared to turn the speed up that high. I'm learning that it has more do to with feel than anything. Thankfully I'm not still on the straight-up vertical edge of the learning curve, but it's still pretty steep!

Good advice on having lots of tools handy. I picked that up here in this forum, and it's really been beneficial for keeping the flow of work rolling. It's particularly handy for having a couple of gouges for roughing and a couple that are still crisp off the grinder for finishing.

Thanks, too, John for the video on the Hunter Osprey. I told myself I wouldn't buy any new cutting tools for while, because I rarely use a number that I bought early on thinking I had to have them. I was talked into an Easy Wood carbide tool with a square shank and vertical cutter—boy was that a waste of money, at least in my experience. I can see where the Osprey is MUCH more versatile.

Best,
Zach

 

[robo hippy]

Well, having a curious mind, I have to experiment a lot. I may have 20 different bowl gouges.... No, I don't have a tool buying problem.. well, not too much of one. I don't use the swept back gouges. Main reason is that I haven't found they have any advantages for MY turning style. So some explaining, and yes, I am 'different'.

Clean cuts: first the tools need to be sharp, and that definition varies hugely from 60 grit because more serrated cuts better to polished smoother than the top of my bald head because the finer teeth cut cleaner and wear down more slowly. I never hone. Back when I used a swept back gouge for shear scraping the outside of the bowl, I found it helped to hone off the burr on the inside though... Probably the softest wood I cut is big leaf maple. It is always a bit stringy. So when roughing, I don't care to try to make it clean, but I do want the shape to flow rather than ridges. Try varying your push when cutting. There is a noticeable noise difference when cutting and tearing. This is really a touchy feely thing, but if you push too hard, the wood will tear before it cuts. When roughing, I am pushing as hard as my lathe will let me, and I have no problem stalling my 3 hp Beauty. The finish cuts come in after the roughing and shaping has been done. To me, besides being sharp, the cleanest cuts come from a high shear angle. So, a scraper, flat on the tool rest has 0 shear angle. Most gouges, if you are cutting with the nose and lower wing part, you are getting about a 45 degree shear angle. The main advantage/reason for the long wings on the swept back gouges is for the shear cuts, which means you drop the handle, and cut more with the wing than the nose. You can get a higher shear angle here, maybe 60 degrees or so, and do a bevel rubbing cut, some times pushing, some times pulling. Mike Mahoney does the pull cut, but he uses a 40/40 (bevel/sweep) gouge. With a more open flute (note here, flutes rolled all the way over so you are cutting with the middle/bottom of the flute, and wing is doing more of a scrape) design, like half round or Doug Thompson's fluteless gouge, you can get to 50 to 70 plus degrees. The higher the shear angle, the easier it is for the cutting edge to get under the wood as it cuts and gently lift it away. Kind of like speed bumps in the parking lots: hit them square on, big bump. The more of an angle you hit them at, the more gentle the bump, but there is always some bump. If you are using wings for the finish cuts on the outside of a bowl, then nose shape isn't really that important. For shear scraping, the longer wings of the swept back design come in handy as it offers more surface area, but I prefer my swept back scrapers for this.

Now, the inside of the bowl. Different story. Much more difficult to turn than the outside. In part because you can't see what you are doing as well, and have to rely on feeling the curves with your hand, and you can't drop the handle because the tool rest, banjo, bowl rim, and lathe bed are in the way. Here is where nose design is more important to me. You want a much more rounded nose compared to a pointy one, and the more open fluted gouges are better for this than the more V shaped flutes. You get the high shear angles from the nose, and a nose profile like this ). Since the nose gives the higher shear angle, you have a smaller sweet spot, which can dull faster since it is doing all of the cutting. I prefer a fresh edge every time for this cut. The Ellsworth type swept back gouges generally have a 60 degree bevel, or close to that. I probably have more specialized 'inside' bowl gouges than I do 'outside' bowl gouges.That angle is good for an 'all purpose' gouge, which means to me that you can turn the outside, and the inside of just about any bowl with it, so you can go down the wall, through the transition, and across the bottom of most bowl designs. You can't do this with a 40/40 gouge (I prefer 45/45 as the other is just too pointy for me). The idea with rubbing the bevel is to keep the rub point close to the cutting edge for better control. On a convex surface, like the outside of the bowl, any bevel angle can work fine. On the inside, just about all of us grind off at least half of the heel. This, on a concave surface keeps the bevel rubbing point closer to the cutting edge, and also keeps you from bruising the wood. Shear scraping on the inside of a bowl is pretty much impossible with a gouge. I use a scraper with a ) nose, work on the lower half of the tool, and pull up to the rim.

I have a bunch of bowl turning clips up on You Tube if you type in robo hippy. The pictures probably explain more than I can do here, and I show how to use just about all of my toys.

Words of wisdom from my Wing Chung/Kung Fu teacher:
'Teacher, am I doing this right?'
' 10,000 more times!'
'But teacher, that is what you said last time.'
'Well, 10,000 more times!'

Probably the next skill to try to perfect so you can do less sanding is learning to move with the tool as you cut so you get smooth surfaces...

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

Zach,

I've been using the Ellsworth grind 20 years now.
Hopefully I have gotten better as well as older.

I like a rounded tip. Also I use a 5/8" bar gouge most of the time. This is the 1/2" gouge in most of the catalogs.
I hone the flute to clean out th crud from green wood. Then sharpen and use the tool off the wheel.

The Ellsworth grind is super for natural edge bowls.
Pull cut on the outside of the bowl almost always cuts the bark cleanly
There is an advanced shear cut you can use on the inside of a natural edge bowl rim to bottom center.
I recommend that people learn this cut with a mentor.
When this cut is locked-in and leaving a clean surface it is an eyelash away from a massive catch.
The trick is to hold the tool loosely so that the bevel can follow the curve of the bowl. Tense up and you push the tool into a catch.
On 16" diameter bowls I sometimes have to use a round nose scraper on the bottom I get a bit of chatter if I go into the end grain too much.
It is an area that you cannot try too many times because there is no wood. The last 16" bowl I did I nailed the bottom fine with the gouge.
The next on I may have to pull out the round nose scrapper.

This cut can be started on the interrupted cut of the natural edge. On a cut rim bowl it must rolled into.
I usually finish the first jnch inside a cut rim bowl with a 1/4" (3/8" bar) gouge with a Michelson grind ( traditional grind works ok)
The smaller gouge is sharper and takes a tiny shaving leaving a clean cut and a space to roll the Ellsworth gouge into a shear cut.

I have a video of a demo of a natural edge crotch bowl with the Ellsworth gouge.
The link for the video and slides used in the demo are in a post in the "how-tos, tips, techniques" section of the forum.
One of the first couple threads after the stickies.
You will see how I use a lot of different cuts on the bowl with the Ellsworth ground gouge.

Al

 

[robo hippy]

Al, I would love to do a play date with you some time.... No transporters yet though.

I have seen that cut before, and it makes my sphincters pucker just thinking about it. The dangerous part about it that if you roll it even about a half of a degree towards the wood, you come off the bevel, and then your tool instantly turns into a scraper that is pointing up into the wood rather than down and out of the wood, so Kablooie!!! Part of why I always roll my flutes over almost 90 degrees for cutting on the inside of a bowl. I can still get the high shear angle, and clean cuts. Just looking at that cut almost makes me think it is more of a peeling type cut.

I have thought for a while that a 'demo' lathe could be set up in the vendor area for bowl turning and have guests in for 'More than 2 ways to turn a bowl'. Mike and Stuart's video of that is interesting....

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

there are two ways to do the pull cut that Al is talking about. The safe way is with the handle very low. I should mention that it is used with a swept back grind. With the handle low and the flute toward you there is in affect a very long bevel running from the tip down the wing. This is virtually catch proof because the wood is coming down across the rounded portion of the nose and you have that long bevel to support the cut. The other way the pull cut is done is with the flute up and your rubbing the left wing as the bevel. This is the dangerous one but with practice isn't hard to achieve.
Why would you use the dangerous one. Well when I'm turning a bowl between centers with the bottom toward the tailstock I like to use the pull cut because you are turning from foot to lip. The problem is you can't always get the tool handle down when starting the cut near the foot. I've found that I can start the cut with the tool shaft somewhat horizontal if necessary. Here's how I do it. I twist the tool slightly clockwise so the lower part of the bevel is on the wood. Then gently twist the tool CCW until the cut just starts. Don't go any further. That's where the catch happens. Pull the tool toward you shaping the bowl and lower the handle as you go. It goes from the dangerous cut to the safe cut very quickly.
A safer way to cut that area right up to the cut is with a push cut. However your often cutting uphill into the grain. That's where the Hunter Osprey really shines. You push it just like a bowl gouge but the cutting tip has a 30 degree sharpened edge so it cuts' very clean.

 

[hockenbery]

Al, I would love to do a play date with you some time.... No transporters yet though. I have seen that cut before, and it makes my sphincters pucker just thinking about it. The dangerous part about it that if you roll it even about a half of a degree towards the wood, you come off the bevel, and then your tool instantly turns into a scraper that is pointing up into the wood rather than down and out of the wood, so Kablooie!!! Part of why I always roll my flutes over almost 90 degrees for cutting on the inside of a bowl. I can still get the high shear angle, and clean cuts. Just looking at that cut almost makes me think it is more of a peeling type cut. I have thought for a while that a 'demo' lathe could be set up in the vendor area for bowl turning and have guests in for 'More than 2 ways to turn a bowl'. Mike and Stuart's video of that is interesting.... robo hippy

The shear cut is done with the leading edge of the wing with the left edge of the bevel riding just behind the cut.
It is sort of s peeling cut.

It is just a hair off from a massive catch. It is pretty easy to learn from a good instructor.
I have taught it to a handful of beginning students who were progressing ahead of the class.

Maybe Atlanta
Al

 

[john lucas]

I would love to spend time with all of you guys. I think we would find that our use of tools is really not all that different. It's so easy to read little things into written word so we often don't truly understand what the other person is trying to get across. Many years ago I had an online battle with a well know turner over a certain cutting technique. I suspected we were really doing about the same thing but we were miss interpreting what each other was saying. He was teaching at John C Campbell when I had to make a trip to Atlanta so I told him I would stop by on my way back home so we could meet. We instantly became friends and could easily see that we used the tools in very similar ways. The videos often help because we can really see what that person is doing.
Al I plan on seeing you in Atlanta unless unforseen adventures prevent it. My parents live there so it will be easy to stay and I can bring the wife down. I'm hoping she will come for at least part of a day to see what all the fuss is about.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Thank you!

Thanks, everyone, for your generous replies. Lots to consider and try.

I have to run, and don't have time for a longer reply, but wanted to express my gratitude.

Best,
Zach

 

[dbonertz]

When roughing, I am pushing as hard as my lathe will let me, and I have no problem stalling my 3 hp Beauty. robo hippy

Careful Robo, someone, whom I won't mention, may call you a crappy turner and tell you to buy a video and learn how to turn.

Zach,

I agree with everyone else. I would only add that it looks like you have a pretty good handle on this topic, judging by your original post.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Thanks again. I've re-read comments again, and will continue to.

I suffer from two things: 20 years+ making a living as a carpenter/woodworker, but less than a year seriously on the lathe—in short I want to be further ahead than my experience. Number two is only having a couple other turners to compare notes with locally.

Thanks, Al, for the warning on that sheer cut. The first time I tried it, I tensed up and ruined a bowl. My worst catch yet. I really have gotten a lot from your videos.

Thanks, too, robo hippy for all of your videos. I've watched most of them, and many at least a couple times. I also appreciate the advice and thoughts on gouge angles. You hit the nail on the head with my question about nose shape and higher shear angle on interior finish cuts. And that's darn interesting and makes sense about a courser grind leaving a more serrated edge for faster roughing. I can't wait to try the difference, since I've been naively sharpening everything but scrapers with the 180 wheel.

Thanks AAW and all who make this forum so helpful.

Zach

 

[robo hippy]

Dale,
I took a work shop with both Stuart and Allan some years back. I had Stuart doing a number of eye rolls.... I wasn't even using my scrapers...

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

Thanks, Al, for the warning on that sheer cut. The first time I tried it, I tensed up and ruined a bowl. My worst catch yet. I really have gotten a lot from your videos. Zach

It is a very difficult cut to learn by trial and error. I had two excellent teachers Liam o'neil and David Ellsworth.
I encourage you to find someone to show the cut. That may not be an option for you.

In my local club of about 80 there probably 6 of us who use the flute up shear cut.
It is not a necessary cut it just eliminates a lot is sanding.

Good luck,
Be safe

Al

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

It is a very difficult cut to learn by trial and error.

Thanks again, Al. You are 100% correct. I've been using that cut for several months now. At least I knew enough to expect a catch. I wouldn't recommend learning on your own to anyone. I really see the limitations of not having a mentor. At some point I'm going to have to get on a jet and go to an event or class.

The Ellsworth gouge really is an amazing tool, so versatile. And for me at least, still so much to learn and perfect.

Enjoy the weekend, everyone.
Zach

 

[hockenbery]

Thanks again, Al. You are 100% correct. I've been using that cut for several months now. At least I knew enough to expect a catch. I wouldn't recommend learning on your own to anyone. I really see the limitations of not having a mentor. At some point I'm going to have to get on a jet and go to an event or class. The Ellsworth gouge really is an amazing tool, so versatile. And for me at least, still so much to learn and perfect. Enjoy the weekend, everyone. Zach

I am admittedly biased toward the Ellsworth grind.
Many excellent turners use the Ellsworth or similar just because it works so well. The Michelson grind is close second for me.
Either tool has a learning curve. Anyone can pick up the Ellsworth gouge and start scraping and get results.
I see lots of long time turner who only scrape with the Ellsworth they are missing the beauty of what the tool can do.
One of my bosses used to say experience may be the best teacher but the final exam is ****.
If you get serious about taking a plane ride, consider a weekend class with Trent Bosch in ft Collins, Co.
In addition to being a great teacher and skilled technically, he is one of the most creative people you will find.
Al

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Thanks yet again, Al. I checked out Trent Bosch, and he's clearly very talented. I will likely get in touch in with down the road, family is close, and I could use some mentoring.

Best,
Zach

 

[Dean Center]

+1 on Trent. He's also a very, very nice, positive guy.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Update, and thanks again!

I’ve been turning almost daily and incorporating many of the suggestions above. The learning curve continues to be steep.

I’m making good progress. Here’s what's working for me.

1. Clean my 180 CBN wheel with hot water, soap, and a stiff brush. Might’ve been sap from tool, but the wheel was somewhat plugged, and I couldn’t get tools as sharp as they should be. With a jig, it shouldn't take more than just a few seconds on the wheel to touch up the edges.

2. Keep two Ellsworth gouges for roughing, and two gouges for finishing. Sharper all at once.

3. For finish, I’m liking two profiles:
A. Outside: longer flute, less convex wing, pointier tip. Excels for outside sheer cutting.
B. Inside: shorter flute, more convex wing, rounder tip. Provides for a steeper sheer cut on the inside, leaving a cleaner surface.

4. Hone the flute of finishing gouges right before sharpening occasionally. I was finding a very small burr building inside the cutting edge.

5. Sharpen every cut or pass to two for final finish cuts.

6. Faster speeds for finish cuts.

7. Oil before finish cuts on the inside for soft wood. At the extreme, with Sitka spruce, it’s the difference between a 60 grit finish and almost 180 for me. Sitka spruce is very soft and has long fibers that love to tear.

8. Movement. Practice, and pay more attention. Get feet in the right position to be balanced while flowing through the cut, moving body from the legs. It's a fine and delicate dance that takes a long time to be even half-decent. Once I realized the movement flows like kung fu and tai chi chuan, I improved a lot.

9. Observe the advice I've heard several times but wasn't following: focus on riding the bevel, rather than the cutting edge.

Last observation: I ordered the Hunter Osprey #1, and I'm either not using it right, or the Ellsworth gouge works better with shear cuts. I can see where the Osprey will be handy in other situations. I had fun turning a handle for the Osprey out of an old broken sledge hammer handle.

Thanks again, everyone.

 

[hockenbery]

Zach,
That is a nice summary.
8.5 keep the handle against your side so that the tool moves with the body as much as possible.

I have been using the hunter tools some. Did a little natural edge goblet from an oak limb yesterday.
The Hunter gives a great surface on the endgrain inside the goblet.
I haven't used in any soft woods.
Soft woods don't scrape well and usually a cut surface will be a better finish than a scraped one
Some really dense woods scrape really well.
John has a video on using the Hunter as a cutting tool I've use that on some small oak pieces and it works great.

Al

 

[john lucas]

Here's my video on the Osprey. To get clean cuts with that tool you must rub the bevel and do it like a push cut on a bowl gouge. Don't force the cut. speed up the lathe if you feel comfortable and then try to just let the tool cut at the pace it want's to cut. Takes practice not to push more than necessary. It won't take as big of a bite as a bowl gouge but then on a finishing cut you don't want that anyway. You can shear scrape with it by rotating the cutter so the top of the cutter is facing the work. Of course then it's a scraper and won't give as clean of a surface but is really handy for cleaning up bumps created by less than perfect tool control that we are all guilty of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnFdDo0jxGU

 

[robo hippy]

John, every time I see one of those concave carbide disc cutters, I wonder why no one makes a mandrill to mount them on so you can put it on a drill, spin it and use a fine diamond hone to refresh the edge. I have an articulated head hollowing tool I got years ago from Packard, that has a HSS cutter like that, and came with a mandrill for just that type of sharpening.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

I tried making a mandrel and tried all sorts of abrasives to sharpen them. It won't work. They just chip. I tried various jewelers grinding burrs, diamond hones, and a bunch of others that I don't remember. I decided that as long as the Hunter cutters last it really isn't worth the effort of sharpening them. You can buy aftermarket cutters that look the same and are ground the same but they aren't the made of the same material. Mike Hunter was a carbide salesman before he retired and decided to eat up his life savings doing woodturning. 🙂 Any way he had the cutters made to his specs using state of the art carbide (and he hasn't told me exactly what's in it) and other materials, so they are designed with woodturning in mind. Bear in mind that the look alike cutters are designed to cut Aluminum which of course is harder than wood but has different abrasive qualities.

 

[Terry Vaughan]

I tried too. You can spin them in the lathe. I got the same result as John. But they can be turned into flat-top cutters, which are useful sometimes.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Great additional, Al. I learned that one the hard and slow way, too. 🙂

Thanks, too, John. I've watched your video a number of times. My conclusion so far is that Al's observation is right: scraping just isn't effective with softer woods. Please don't think I'm holding you personally liable for your generous and free advice! I'll still be able to use the Osprey. And I'll keep trying, too. Funny, humbling story: the first book I picked up when I started taking turning seriously was Richard Raffan's. I tried his techniques and tools, and coupled with my lack of experience, nothing worked. Eventually I figured out, "Gee, he's turning tropical hardwoods, I'm turning Alaskan softwoods." I've learned to take any lathe advice as coming from an individual who has been successful with their woods and their techniques. It's apple growing versus orange growing—still fruit growing, but vastly varied.

Another addition to what's working for me is to start sanding on the higher end of my off-the-tool finish. For example, don't rush for 120 when a little more sanding at 180 will bring things into shape. And it seems good to have intermediate paper handy, too, such as 150 in this example.

An observation on carbide. I used to do a lot of millwork. I ordered amazing carbide planer knives from Infinity Tools. The knives cost several times more, but lasted 20 times longer.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Michelsen Grind

Just to give an update, I've been using JoHannes Michelsen's sharpening jig and tools for about a month, and I am constantly impressed with the cutting of the grind and tools.

I had done my best at a Michelsen grind without the jig, but the jig really set me strait. That, and the Thomson 10V steel holds an edge better than any of the high buck English steels I have.

So what's so great about the Michelsen grind? The bevel rubs right below the cutting edge, making a smoother cut. I also suspect the wing being further in than an Ellsworth grind is an improved cutting angle. It works.

At least in my experience, the flute-up interior cut that Al mentioned earlier in this thread is much safer with the Michelsen grind—because the bevel is right there. I also get a cleaner cut.

As a side note: JoHannes' coring tool is great for what it is. I read a few comments that it looked dangerous, but I've found it incredibly safe. I wouldn't hand it to a complete newby, but I would encourage anyone to give it a test drive. It also makes a brute of a parting tool with a great deal of finesse.

JoHannes and his tools deserve a lot more airtime in the turning world.

 

[hockenbery]

I use the Michelson grind on my 3/8 diameter bar gouge I use for coves on hollow forms, hollowing goblets, hollowing balls, the top inside of bowls,
and for problem woods.
It is a great grind I certainly think more people should try it and have a least one tool with that grind.
It is a grind that can do most anything. A great grind for thin work since it has no bevel drag since it has a micro bevel.
I prefer the Ellsworth for most thing but like having a Michelson grind handy.

 

[john lucas]

I have a very small main bevel on my tools. They don't look a lot different than the Michelson grind except maybe his rolls over toward the inside more. I went to the smaller bevel because you can feel the cut better because there is very little friction. It also made it quick to hone if I decide to do that. I need more experimentation with the Michelson grind. I had just started using it when I had to move so it's been sitting for a year.

 

[robo hippy]

I have looked at the Michelsen grind a couple of times, and as near as I can tell, it is a swept back grind with 80%+ of the bevel ground away. I do use very small bevels on my BOB (bottom of bowl) tools. With my 45/45 gouges, I may take off about half of the bevel, depending on when I get 'around to it'. I guess it is one I should play around with. We need a play area at the Symposium....

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

Don't know if you've ever seen the Stewart Batty Mike Mahoney battle but it's hilarious and very informative. I would imagine if Reed, Al and I got together on a lathe there would be a lot of interesting learning and discussion to pass around. To bad there isn't a lathe we could play on.

 

[hockenbery]

Don't know if you've ever seen the Stewart Batty Mike Mahoney battle but it's hilarious and very informative. I would imagine if Reed, Al and I got together on a lathe there would be a lot of interesting learning and discussion to pass around. To bad there isn't a lathe we could play on.

We would have some fun.
A lathe may be easier to find than the time.

We should do a little cutting with tools.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have looked at the Michelsen grind a couple of times, and as near as I can tell, it is a swept back grind with 80%+ of the bevel ground away. I do use very small bevels on my BOB (bottom of bowl) tools. With my 45/45 gouges, I may take off about half of the bevel, depending on when I get 'around to it'. I guess it is one I should play around with. We need a play area at the Symposium....

robo hippy

Actually, it's more like beginning with a swept back grind similar to the Ellsworth grind and then rolling the gouge way over to apply the narrow bevel at the cutting edge. Its been a few years, but if my memory hasn't failed me, I think that when he used to freehand grind his gouges, he used the coarse side of his grinding wheel to apply the bevel at the cutting edge as the final step in sharpening.

Whether sharpening freehand or using his jig, he has his gouge nearly upside down when applying the cutting edge bevel. This means that when using the gouge the back of the handle is somewhat higher than it would otherwise be.

 

[robo hippy]

I have watched both live, and the video of Mike and Stuart doing their 2 ways to turn a bowl. On the outside they differ a little with the push/pull cut, but on the inside they are similar. Me, well, I am way different, mostly because of my scraper use for heavy roughing... I will have some big ugly tools to play with.

robo hippy

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Bill has described the JoHannes' grind accurately. The wings are more rolled over, maintaining the nose bevel angle around to keep the same bevel angle on the wings—whereas of course the Ellsworth grind bevel angle becomes steeper on the wings.

What best illustrates the difference is how the two grinds are ground with jigs. JoHannes has a plate (the Vector plate) that grinds each respective side of the wing a couple inches to the right or left of center. You don't sharpen the cutting edge on the centerline of the stone, as you do with the Wolverine and Ellsworth jigs. In effect, the off-center nature of the jig gives what JoHannes calls swept-back wings. Swept back wings are much less prone to catching because cutting edge is more curved and the bevel is right under them. I feel like I can use more of the cutting edge further back. Hard to explain in words...

As for tool presentation, I haven't taken a class from JoHannes, so I still cut mostly like I did before with an Ellsworth grind. I'm also a big fan of very steep shear cuts for the exterior of bowls. I think the Ellsworth cuts faster in a steep shear cut, but really we're after smooth, and especially in green wood I get crazy smooth cuts with the Michelsen grind and a steep shear cut.

Everyone turns different wood and has different styles, but for me at least, I rough faster and finish smoother with the Michelsen grind.

I would love to get to a symposium to watch you guys put tools to the wood.

Thanks for all the comments. As always, I'm learning lots.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'll add a FWIW .... Johannes only turns green/wet wood because that is what is necessary for making hats. Wood that has dried out can't be shaped after turning. I think that his grind is probably more suitable for wood that hasn't dried out.

One more FWIW, the part of the Vector jig (that's what he calls it) that attaches to the bowl gouge is exactly the same dimensions as the Ellsworth jig. So if you use an extension of 2", use the center hole in the delta part of the jig, and set the nose angle on the grindstone to get 60° then you will get an exact Ellsworth grind ... assuming that you pay attention to the shape, just as when using any jig