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Electronics for a Nichols lathe

Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
179
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Location
Kingston, Oklahoma
Website
www.turningnick.com
After not using my Nichols Lathe for an extended period, I plugged it in. I typically use the speed control to operate the lathe. By chance I happen to use the on/off switch the turn the lathe off. The switch failed to turn off the motor. Removed the switch, and the motor ran.

Several Years ago I had a pdf of the manual, but that went with a crash hard drive. I won't be able to get the controller box until this weekend(it's up against a wall.

Are there any ideas?
 
two options sounds like

After not using my Nichols Lathe for an extended period, I plugged it in. I typically use the speed control to operate the lathe. By chance I happen to use the on/off switch the turn the lathe off. The switch failed to turn off the motor. Removed the switch, and the motor ran.

Several Years ago I had a pdf of the manual, but that went with a crash hard drive. I won't be able to get the controller box until this weekend(it's up against a wall.

Are there any ideas?


Either you have the on/off switch wired in parallel with the speed control or you have something miswired very probably the speed control. The ends of two wires could be touching or an eyelet could be touching another wire or terminal. A possibility of a wire with the insulation rubbed through also so you are using the "earth wire" as the ground. There is a good chance that your whole machine or a good sized chunk of it is electrically "hot". Best to disconnect power at the breaker and then start testing with an ohm meter to figure out where your issue is.


Just thoughts from what I understand you to be saying, Bill and others are much more electrically savvy than I am.

Oh, and I might as well be the first to offer, send it to me and I will troubleshoot it, get it going, and test run it a few years for you just to be safe! 😉

Hu
 
1. It is a DC motor.
2. The contacts are not touch any where near the switch. I have removed the switch.
3. The wiring has not be changed since it was new.

Bill, I was looking for any advice before taking in to have it looked at.

Hu, Thanks for the offer. I'll keep it in mind.

I'll check the lathe for being hot tonight.
 
From a guy who once tried to trouble shoot a chain saw for 20 minutes with the on/off switch off.

Are you sure power coming into the switch. An easy check if you have a volt ohm meter.
Faulty circuit breaker, broken power cord, bad outlet.......

I had a problem with my well pump a few months back. Some ants got in and got toasted between the contacts. A little Emory paper to remove their remains and the pump switch worked fine.

Might be dust on the contacts...

A couple of years ago I was fixing a general lathe. The nice folks at general tried to help when they ran out of ideas the had the controller company call. They guy walked me through a whole bunch of trouble shooting starting with voltage in and voltage out. Then a bunch of program changes.. Ended up getting a controller form radzwill for about $250 it was new in the box a surplus return they checked out. Not sure there is any support for you Nichols. Great Lathe....

The above is 80% or what I know about electricity.
Good luck.

Al
 
.... I had a problem with my well pump a few months back. Some ants got in and got toasted between the contacts. A little Emory paper to remove their remains and the pump switch worked fine...

For some reason, fire ants take a special liking to electrical contacts. On the condenser of our air conditioner, there is a relay that gets packed with fire ants on a regular basis. I haven't been able to seal the relay well enough to keep them from finding a way in. Not that I wish them a better fate, but I wish that they would choose some other place to meet their demise.
 
off position ain't off

Al, Bill,

As I read it Nick has the opposite problem from not making a connection, his machine runs with the switch off, even with the switch removed!

DC motor which should make things easier but I haven't messed with DC in ages. Seems the current has found an alternate route in his machine.

Nick,

You did say that you turned it off with the switch when you usually just use the speed control kinda indicating that you don't know how long ago this issue developed. I don't know anything about the Nichols but some older metal lathes with electronic speed control had a huge set of switches that it bounced between. Way cool almost Rube Goldberg analog control box. Looked like something Dr Frankenstein would have been right at home with!

A couple of questions: Can you still turn it off with the speed control when it won't shut down with the on/off switch? Does it seem that the lathe is always running the same RPM when it doesn't shut down? Trying to isolate if the problem is in the speed controller or somewhere else.

Hu
 
Are you talking about the red "emergency" on/off switch or the switch on the controller down on the back? I use the speed control on the pendant on my Nichols solely, as the two switches that make up the "emergency" button need to be replaced.
 
After not using my Nichols Lathe for an extended period, I plugged it in. I typically use the speed control to operate the lathe. By chance I happen to use the on/off switch the turn the lathe off. The switch failed to turn off the motor. Removed the switch, and the motor ran.

Several Years ago I had a pdf of the manual, but that went with a crash hard drive. I won't be able to get the controller box until this weekend(it's up against a wall.

Are there any ideas?

I'm sorry for being kind of slow, but I am not quite sure that I am following what happened.

Switch contacts certainly can weld together when used with an inductive load (motors and other electromagnetic devices). It happened to me once with my old Delta lathe. I flipped the power switch to turn it off and it kept on going. So, I just unplugged it. I did an autopsy on the switch and found that the contacts had stuck together and then everything inside the switch basically fell apart.

Your last sentence is confusing me -- "Removed the switch, and the motor ran". Obviously, there is more to the story, but I would only be guessing at what it is. Would I be right in guessing that you disconnected the wires to the switch and then jumpered them together so that you could run the motor? If my guess is right then I suppose that you want to repair the lathe with a new switch.

You can't use just any switch -- well, actually you can, but if you would like one that is more reliable then make sure that the replacement is one that is rated for inductive loads and twice the maximum current of the motor. Switches that are designed for use with motors are different internally than switches used for ordinary applications like lighting. They have larger wider spaced internal contacts that have a much faster snap action in order to minimize arcing. Arcing is what welds the contacts together. Somebody took note of that fact many years ago and invented the arc welder.

Here is my guess on why the switch failed when you changed the way that you turned the lathe off. If you normally ran the speed control down to minimum and the turned it off, the motor is not drawing much current so there is not much arcing going on between contacts. This last time, the motor was running at high speed and you flipped the switch to turn the lathe off. When the motor is running fast, the current is much higher -- also one other very important thing -- there is a LOT of stored energy in the motor's magnetic field. When you flipped the switch to OFF, that stored energy has to go somewhere -- that "somewhere" would be to keep the current flowing through the motor's wiring -- the collapsing magnetic field will produce whatever voltage necessary to bridge the gap in order to maintain current flow through the contacts so that the motor is able to dump its stored energy. All of this happens almost instantly from a human perspective, so the gap is still very small when the arcing occurs -- and, sometime there is enough molten metal on the contacts to form a weld.
 
The switch was a normal household switch. The switch along with the Power indicator light, & speed nob is in a typical household electrical box, with a cable connecting box with all of the other electronics.

With the switch removed and the contacts sticking in the air, the motor runs. Confusing. I am getting ready to go out checking to see if the lathe is hot or live(open hot wire) & then plow out all of the electronics if safe. Wish me luck!
 
Damn Nick! That sounds crazy!

Don't stand on a wet floor when you try to troubleshoot this! YOU NEED SOME SERIOUS CIRCUIT TRACING from both the power end in, and the motor/controller end out. Hopefully there is not an internal short in something that bypasses the switch or safety device. I would probably start over with completely new wiring before trusting anything to what a previous owner put in place.

Don't forget some sort of emergency stop switch! I hope you can get it figured out!

Rob
 
The switch was a normal household switch. The switch along with the Power indicator light, & speed nob is in a typical household electrical box, with a cable connecting box with all of the other electronics.

With the switch removed and the contacts sticking in the air, the motor runs. Confusing. I am getting ready to go out checking to see if the lathe is hot or live(open hot wire) & then plow out all of the electronics if safe. Wish me luck!

I am not following what you mean by "contacts sticking in the air".

Are you talking about the wires that you removed from the switch or something else?

WARNING -- ONLY DO THE FOLLOWING IF YOU ARE COMPETENT WITH WORKING ON ELECTRICAL AND ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT:

Never do anything that puts you in danger of touching live wires or circuits. Does the speed control still work or does the motor only run at one speed now? If the speed control works, then I do not see a reason to mess with the electronics. Based on your description, I suspect that the switch is not a power switch but instead it is a logic start/stop input. Trace the two wires to see if either leads to the power cord or only to the controller board. If the wires that were connected to the switch only go to the controller board, I would try briefly touching them together while the motor is running (with the speed turned down, if the controller is still able to do that). If that makes the motor stop, that would be confirmation that it is a logic input. On the chance that you have a multimeter, measure the voltage between the wires that were connected to the switch.
 
I return uninjured! The lathe, motor, and controls were not hot or live. I opened the controls box & could see no dust. I blew it out anyway.

When John Nichols built these lathes, he chose the electronics well. The same model(XL3300a) is still available from Minarik. The PDF for the manual talks about similar issues. I'll try their 800 number try tomorrow.

I give you guys an update later.
 
Problem Solved!

After trying some of Bill's trouble shooting techniques, I found a wire that was not connected to anything. When I pulled the face plate off of the control box, there was a small spark. I believe that when I pulled the face plate off, an intermittent short became a complete short. I plugged the wire back to most likely place on the board. Everything seems to be working correctly.

Bill, You were correct. The switch operates as a logic switch. When the two wires to the switch touch, the motor stops.

Thanks for all of the advice & knowledge.
 
oops, em, um, er . . .

After trying some of Bill's trouble shooting techniques, I found a wire that was not connected to anything. When I pulled the face plate off of the control box, there was a small spark. I believe that when I pulled the face plate off, an intermittent short became a complete short. I plugged the wire back to most likely place on the board. Everything seems to be working correctly.

Bill, You were correct. The switch operates as a logic switch. When the two wires to the switch touch, the motor stops.

Thanks for all of the advice & knowledge.


I was once trained in instrument design, had a diploma from a ten week course somewhere, never considered that the switch could be an analog logic gate!

Bill, a friend has an antique Monarch EE, if I ever get a chance to work on it I may need your expertise. Huge control box, lots of copper switches. I lust for that EE but he is a hoarder, probably never turn loose of it.

Hu
 
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