• It's time to cast your vote in the January 2025 Turning Challenge. (click here for details)
  • Conversations are now Direct Messages (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Alan Weinberg for "Elm Burl Bowl" being selected as Turning of the Week for January 27, 2025 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Easy Wood, Carter Diamond etc. and Learning to Turn.

Tom Albrecht

Tom Albrecht

Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,207
Likes
650
Location
Evanston, IL USA
I have a prospective student who wants to purchase a combination of the Easy Tools and Carter tools with replaceable cutters. He is convinced that's the way he wants to go and that's his call. He is also convinced that he can learn faster by focusing strictly on turning without the time consuming learning curve of sharpening techniques. I am not making a judgement call here, but I personally don't use them. By the time they became popular, I already had a sizable investment in conventional tools. The only one I have is an Easy Wood parting tool, but I rarely use it because when I am parting I am simultaneously using a caliper and none of my calipers fit in the too narrow slot that the tool makes.

So my question is, does he have a valid point? I don't know enough about those tools to comment on possible differences in the finished product, if any.
 
I have been teaching with Hunter carbide tools such as the Hercules and Viceroy. they function just like scrapers but it is possible to use them as bevel rubbing tools. The reason I started is at the school where I teach it is getting harder and harder for the to get people to sign up for full weekend classes. so we started doing one day classes. Hard to teach beginning turning in one day if you have to teach sharpening and bevel rubbing. I find when I teach weekend classes it takes most of the day for people just to get used to bevel rubbing. With a Hercules and parting tool I can work them through a project with great success. No one gets a catch, they don't need to sharpen. We have been doing classes that are 4 hours long. Again with great success. People turn a fairly complicated candleholder with no problems.
A second thought on that subject is they don't have to invest in a sharpening system. A lot of new turners get started on a budget. They buy a lathe and sometimes some really crappy tools. don't have a way to sharpen them and get really frustrated. With the carbide tools as long as you can get them to keep the handle higher than the cutting edge they are quite successful in turning something and always have a reasonably sharp edge. It does take a while to convince them that bevel rubbing is better in the long run but that's just something we have to deal with.
 
The other view is investing in a cheap 2nd hand grinder with a couple of conventional sharpening wheels and you can sharpen a 2nd hand used set of carbon steel or high speed steel tools and get thousands of hours of turning out of a $25.00 grinder and $100.00 used set of tools. Buy a couple of new carbide tipped tools and you have spent more than $125.00 on two tools. Modern machine shops utilize carbide tipped cutting tools on a regular basis, however there are many instances where they will still grind a HSS Cutter or Carbide Cutter to make difficult cuts on various materials. A roughing gouge is one of the traditional lathe tools that carbide tipped tool does not totally replace for the versatility of the tool.
 
I only teach what I know well.

An example when a do Christmas ornaments I use a skew on the finials.
When I each Christmas ornaments I teach the spindle gouge to make the finials.
I know how to solve about every problem a student can have with the gouge
I don’t have any confidence that I could help a student in trouble to use the skew correctly.

I think with the carbides. After the first 4-5 bowls that is as good as it will get.
Learning to use the gouge will result in
Faster wood removal/shaping during roughing
Nicer curves with a gouge
cleaner cut on the interrupted surface - natural edge, square rims, multi-center.
 
I bought 2 easy wood tools a couple weeks ago. I've been turning for about a year and a half and had promised two table legs to a friend. Not having enough confidence in my skills I grabbed the easy wood tools. I made a couple of cuts with the finisher, put them back in the tubes and finished with my skew and spindle gouge. Using the carbide was easily the least satisfying cut I've made since I started turning. Making a cut with a fire or skew just feels so much better than just shoving a tool into the wood. Much cleaner too.
I'm sure the hunters are different but it'll be a while before I get around to trying those.
 
As a long time turner I agree with bevel.rubbing tools. The reason carbide scrapers took off is there is almost no learning curve. Just stick the tool into the wood and no sharpening. We know that they are missing the fun of getti g a really clean cut with almost no sanding. As far as the Hunter tools go, I use them as bevel rubbing tools where they do a great job. The Hunter #5 for example is the best tool I have found for box interiors. It's also wonderful as a bottom feeder. the Hercules and Viceroy are.excellent for beginners because the also have almost no learning curve. However i I show them how much cleaner they cut when used as bevel.rubbing tools so they get that bug.
 
A carbide tool addressing the wood at an optimal angle would most likely make a very clean cut, but most tools are designed to hold a conventional off the shelf carbide cutters in standard shapes used in the industry. Most wood turners that have learned to use a standard set of lathe tools would need to address the wood billet at a different angle holding the tool handle at a lower position below the tool rest to provide a shearing cut angle on the carbide. Each of these new tool designs with special carbide cutter designs usually require a learning curve to master the proper technique in using the tool correctly. I know a few wood turners that are hesitant to use a skew which is one of the most versatile tools out there when you learn its proper use. Every tool seems to have that aha moment when the light bulb turns on and you understand what you were doing wrong and now know what to do right.
 
Mike Johnson said:
A roughing gouge is one of the traditional lathe tools that carbide tipped tool does not totally replace for the versatility of the tool.
Click to expand...

Square carbide cutters will do almost the same thing a SRG will. Not as versatile as the SRG in the hands of an experienced turner but it will round a blank. I do use Hunter carbides for boxes and ornaments and some tough hollowing. Also the Viceroy is hard to beat for odd shaped bowls such as an offering plate . That said I prefer traditional tools for most other tasks . Also of note no carbide I know of promotes itself as a outside the vessel shaping tool.

By the way you can get a pretty good catch with a #4 Hunter DAMHIK.
 
A prospective student that has it all figured out. That's going to be a challenge! I think they will soon realize that carbide insert tools are not the cure all they are marketed to be. Next they'll be asking you to help fix tear out issues, and what's the lowest grit sandpaper you have. My best students were gals who came to class with no preconceived notions or horrible turning habits. Always wondered about a few who came to class, since they knew it all before arriving!
 
The Woodpeckers Ultra shear carbide cutters have the support bar ground to promote easy bevel rubbing techniques. They cut very clean when used as bevel rubbing tools. They also have angles ground on the shaft to promote shear scraping. Very nice tools. The EZ wood tools don't have this support and are harder to use as bevel rubbing tools. Richard, so many of the people out there rarely turn which is why they are so pleased with the carbide scrapers. They won't take the time to learn to sharpen or buy the gear and are quite happy making bowls or other things that don't require delicate cuts. I find a lot of new turners don't have sharp tools and force the cut and get tearout almost as bad as a carbide scraper so they start with 120 grit paper no matter what.
 
Tom, like you I mainly use traditional tools. I feel they give me more satisfaction and I always have a sharp edge. I have few carbide tools. I don’t like the “scraper” type at all. I like the hunter style carbides for hollowing. I have the Jimmy Clewes mate tool I use occasionally. My first attempt at turning was on a Shopsmith. After painstaking set up I introduced a roughing gouge to a 4” block of wood and it came flying out of the lathe and across the room. I didn’t think I would ever want to turn again and didn’t for more than a year. So if a new turner can use the carbide tools and have success, so be it. They may eventually start using traditional tools at some point, but at least they will have confidence then.
 
If you don't learn the basics of turning you have the potential of making the guaranteed rookie mistakes in the early stages of the learning curve. Those 10 pound chunks of wood spinning at a 1000 RPM's hitting you in the face tend to knock sense into a small percentage of the rookie's. The others not willing to take the time to learn usually take up other interests.
 
I see it in my turning clubs. People see us demonstrate bevel.rubbing tools and hear us talk about the advantages and they want to give them a try.
 
Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful input.
The input also gives me ideas on possible approaches to my volunteer turning instruction coming up this fall with the Waldorf School 12th graders.
 
Tom Albrecht said:
I have a prospective student who wants to purchase a combination of the Easy Tools and Carter tools with replaceable cutters. He is convinced that's the way he wants to go and that's his call. He is also convinced that he can learn faster by focusing strictly on turning without the time consuming learning curve of sharpening techniques. I am not making a judgement call here, but I personally don't use them. By the time they became popular, I already had a sizable investment in conventional tools. The only one I have is an Easy Wood parting tool, but I rarely use it because when I am parting I am simultaneously using a caliper and none of my calipers fit in the too narrow slot that the tool makes.

So my question is, does he have a valid point? I don't know enough about those tools to comment on possible differences in the finished product, if any.
Click to expand...

My recollection is that learning the basics of sharpening took very little time ... maybe a couple hours (but my memory might not be what it once was) so I'm a bit mystified about the "time consuming learning curve". Learning about all the different grinds is an ongoing process that doesn't need to be learned all at once and I wouldn't classify that as being of much consequence on my turning time.

I have four or five carbide tools that I occasionally use for special situations such as wood that has a high mineral content that quickly dulls conventional tools. My turning club has a large number of new turners and a number of them primarily use carbide tools.

It's just my biased opinion, but I see a correlation between not spending the time to learn skillful tool control and not spending time to learn some fundamentals of good design. So what I often see at club meetings are flat bottomed bowls with undulating sides that remind me of over-the-top Louis XIV French Baroque along with a good measure of voids and bark inclusions. It would be nice if a class at least touched on some design fundamentals.
 
Learning to sharpen was a big deal until the Wolverine came out. Even now I see a lot of folks mess up with that wonderful fixture. Mainly because they are in a hurry. Bill, don't forget the current trend of filling cracks in wood with colorful plastic. For a lot of new turners, it appears that collecting good wood is also a technique they don't want to learn. Pick up chunks along side the road that is filled with cracks to start with, then go ahead and turn it and fill all the cracks. I'll never understand the appeal to that!
 
Richard Coers said:
Learning to sharpen was a big deal until the Wolverine came out. Even now I see a lot of folks mess up with that wonderful fixture. Mainly because they are in a hurry. Bill, don't forget the current trend of filling cracks in wood with colorful plastic. For a lot of new turners, it appears that collecting good wood is also a technique they don't want to learn. Pick up chunks along side the road that is filled with cracks to start with, then go ahead and turn it and fill all the cracks. I'll never understand the appeal to that!
Click to expand...

Life's too short...........................:D:D:D
 
The carbide scrapers work fine, but I don't use them. Like other tools, they go dull, and can be touched up, but eventually you throw them away. The cupped carbide tools do a good job for shear/slicing cuts. From Robert Heinlein, "Specialization is for insects." You can turn bowls without gouges, but there are plenty of jobs that work better with gouges than with scrapers, and I am a scraper psycho... The fear of sharpening goes away very quickly, it just takes a little practice, and since every time you turn, you need to sharpen, you get comfortable with it very quickly. It isn't rocket science....

robo hippy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top