Eastern Red Cedar Issues

[Dylan Skeean]

Hello fellow wood turners,

I was wondering if someone could shed some light on the issues I'm having cutting Easter Red Cedar? It cuts beautiful for me but as soon as I start sanding I run into issues with checking and cracks? I usually just have issues with stress cracks that don't go through, just surface cracks. But this piece I cut today actually formed a few good sized cracks. I start sanding with 120 grit using abranet sanding pads. When I get to 320 grit the light cracks start showing up? I can go back down to 120 grit and get rid of them most of the time. But the part today formed some cracks. I put some thin CA, and then followed with medium to hold it together. So what can be causing this? I thought it was heat from sanding at first but I was very careful to just lightly sand to prevent heat build up. This would be my fourth project that this happened to me from lidded boxes to bowls, always the same result. It's driving me crazy now and need some help and advice. This one was a birthday gift for my wife so it was disheartening to have it crack on me, needless to say I was unable to give it to her as a gift. I want to work on it more tomorrow to see if I can salvage the bowl for her. She absolutely loves the red cedar, so do I but it has defeated me several times now. I will post some pictures so you can see what I'm talking about.

Thank you for any help or guidance you can provide!
Dylan

 

[Gary Beasley]

Its been my experience cedar cracks at the drop of a hat. Those little cracks showing up were probably there from the get go. Soak in some thin ca and see if it stays together.

 

[Dylan Skeean]

Its been my experience cedar cracks at the drop of a hat. Those little cracks showing up were probably there from the get go. Soak in some thin ca and see if it stays together.

That's been my experience so far with this stuff, very temperamental! I did use CA glue on the big cracks and I'm sure it will stay together but it's those light surface cracks that drive me nuts. If I stop sanding at 220 grit I will avoid those cracks but the finish isn't smooth enough for my liking at that grit? I will play around with it tomorrow and see what I can come up with and report back. Not really sure what I'm going to do but.....

I have another 8"x3" blank and I also have a 4"x6" blank for a box I had planned, not sure how I'm going to approach it now?

Thank you for your reply Gary!

 

[hockenbery]

Those checks and cracks are from drying.

They could have formed in blank if it has been sitting around for a while and opened up on the lathe or became visible with the smooth surface.

It is quite like the wood dried out on the lathe and they formed because the wood dried too quickly. If I have wet wood on the lathe for more than 30-60 minutes I mist it with water to keep it from drying out.
If possible check you blank with a moisture meter. If it is more than 10% consider it wet wood
And keep it from drying on the lathe.

Once turned bowls turned 3/16” wall thickness I will put in a paper bag with the top closed to dry for a day then open the top for a day, then put the bowl on a shelf for a day, then sand and finish the next day.

Also you can’t leave wet wood on recess too long. If it dries and tries to move the wood cannot compress the metal so the bowl cracks. Also cedar splits really easy so you can’t open the jaws into the recess at all just snug them against the edge of th recess.
With a tenon if the wood shrinks the tenon can get loose.

I sand second turned bowls on the lathe. Once turned bowls or hollow forms I sand off the lathe a few days later after the wood has dried.

I have turned quite a bit if cedar. Like any wood it needs to have equal wall thickness and curve that allow it to move as it dries

 

[hockenbery]

One other thought is your nice ring at the rim will promote cracking in wet wood.
You bowl appears to be turned with the rim at the bark edge.
The bark edge rim dry sort of wavy with the ring drying much slower than the walls of the bowl the walls can’t move until the rim does so the walls crack. The side grain walls want to push the rim up as they dry.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I don't think sanding caused the cracks, some are too big, especially the ones on the bottom. Leaving the bowl on the lathe, just to go to lunch, without misting it or covering it with a plastic bag, could lead to cracks. I buy big rolls of plastic wrap at Lowe's and wrap my pieces with it if I can't finish them. I find Cedar to be too soft, just grabbing it, your nails will leave a mark..

 

[Bill Boehme]

I agree with Gary that cedar just loves to crack probably because of internal stresses. I don't know whether sanding is a contributing factor, but sanding on the lathe can be problematic if the sandpaper gets hot from sanding. Make sure that you use adequate respiratory protection when sanding cedar.

 

[hockenbery]

With cedar you need to follow the working with wet wood guidelines.
While some woods like Maple let you get away with bending and stretching the best practices cedar will keep you honest or crack.
Cedar can be turned crack free a high percentage of the time.

Following these guidelines has given me terrific success working with green wood.
Use Un-cracked Wood - Was your blank kept from cracking ?

Work Relatively Fast - mist frequently if on the lathe more than 40 minutes, cover with plastic if you leave

Balance The Grain - you did a nice job here

Turn Pieces With Flowing Curves - curves look good in the photo

Turn Even Wall Thicknesses - large bead at the rim, Bottom looks thick ( may be an illusion from the phot

Control The Initial Drying - use pape bags etc.....

 

[Dylan Skeean]

Thank you for all the replies guys, I appreciate that! I know the cracks on the bottom were not caused from sanding, I actually heard one of those cracks while I was sanding but it was at the recess, so I'm sure it was under stress from being held on the chuck. But the other crack formed about an hour later. This bowl I did turn quickly and did not leave it on the lathe very long at all. I was trying to get it done for my wife while she was at the movies. I have in the past left bowls on the lathe too long and I have learned my lesson from that. I guess I have a lot to learn, I just hope I can salvage this bowl enough to keep some of it's beauty. I love cedar but man, it does not like me!

I also keep paper bags in the workshop and use the chips to slow the drying, that has worked well so far, but not on this one. I admit that I didn't use the paper bag on the cedar bowl, but I didn't have time because it cracked almost right away. Thanks again to everyone that replied, I will take all the suggestions and advice and store them in my head, I just hope it stays there!

I hope everyone has a very Merry Christmas with their families, make memories and stay safe!!

 

[Bill Boehme]

I would not put shavings and chips in the paper bag ... at least not in my climate because they will be dry almost before they hit the floor. It would be like putting a desiccant in the bag. I don't know if it would help much, but I would suggest using a tenon rather than mortise for holding the bowl.

 

[Gary Beasley]

Thanks again to everyone that replied, I will take all the suggestions and advice and store them in my head, I just hope it stays there!

Thats what earplugs are for!

 

[Dylan Skeean]

I would not put shavings and chips in the paper bag ... at least not in my climate because they will be dry almost before they hit the floor. It would be like putting a desiccant in the bag. I don't know if it would help much, but I would suggest using a tenon rather than mortise for holding the bowl.

So you just put the bowl in the bag and nothing else? Yes, I will definitely use a tenon on this cedar, that's for sure!

 

[Dylan Skeean]

Thats what earplugs are for!

Hahaha, I will try that for sure because I lose a lot of good info lately!!

 

[hockenbery]

I would not put shavings and chips in the paper bag ... at least not in my climate because they will be dry almost before they hit the floor. It would be like putting a desiccant in the bag. I don't know if it would help much, but I would suggest using a tenon rather than mortise for holding the bowl.

In our climate they are mold inducing. Ok for a a couple hours to put a piece in a pile of wet shavings.
I rinse my fresh turned pieces in the sink, towel dry, then put in a paper bag or cardboard box.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Since it appears that the cedar isn't quite dry yet, it would probably be a good idea to first rough turn it and bag it until it finishes drying before turning it to final thickness. Also uniform wall thickness as Al said, is very important. I think it would also help to use simple curves with cedar.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Biggest thing which is mentioned above is protect yourself.....what makes cedar so good at protecting fabric (cedar chests) and cedar homes in the south makes turning it very dangerous.....i do not know what caused a Turner to have brain cancer but he did turn mostly cedar

 

[Richard Coers]

I just hope I can salvage this bowl enough to keep some of it's beauty. I love cedar but man, it does not like me!

Sadly, nature does not retain those brilliant colors and beauty over time. Before long all those salmon colors with purple tones will all become dull and lifeless over time. Color in all wood is fleeting. With all that CA staining, you're going to have to turn it again to remove the stain.

 

[Dylan Skeean]

Since it appears that the cedar isn't quite dry yet, it would probably be a good idea to first rough turn it and bag it until it finishes drying before turning it to final thickness. Also uniform wall thickness as Al said, is very important. I think it would also help to use simple curves with cedar.

Okay, thank you for the advice. I do appreciate all the help guys, there is definitely a lot more brain work that goes into woodturning than you would think! The more I learn, the more uneducated I find myself!

Biggest thing which is mentioned above is protect yourself.....what makes cedar so good at protecting fabric (cedar chests) and cedar homes in the south makes turning it very dangerous.....i do not know what caused a Turner to have brain cancer but he did turn mostly cedar

I really hate to admit this because I'm currently battling stage IV cancer and I should be a lot more mindful of my health, but I turned and sanded this yesterday without any protection other than safety glasses! I felt so sick all night too, I will not be making that mistake again! I will have to invest in a respirator of some sort going forward, all I have for now is your basic face masks. Thank you for your concern, always appreciated! What a great bunch of people here on this forum, I really enjoy coming here for advice, and information of course! Thanks again to all.

 

[Dylan Skeean]

I just hope I can salvage this bowl enough to keep some of it's beauty. I love cedar but man, it does not like me!

Sadly, nature does not retain those brilliant colors and beauty over time. Before long all those salmon colors with purple tones will all become dull and lifeless over time. Color in all wood is fleeting. With all that CA staining, you're going to have to turn it again to remove the stain.

Really?? Oh man, I was hoping to avoid putting another tool on this piece, but I will if I have to. I figured sanding would remove the CA glue, but as usual, I'm wrong!

 

[Bill Boehme]

Another option is to use CA as the finish. I've done that on a few pieces, but it's a lot more work than other finishes. Sometimes CA stains will disappear if you use a lacquer finish.

Here is a very good HEPA dust mask that can be used many times before needing to be replaced. It is made by 3M and rated P100. The cost is about $12 each.

There are other comparable masks. The important thing is to know that breathing wood dust isn't good. If I breathe cedar dust it will give me a splitting headache and plug up my sinuses for a couple days.

 

[Dylan Skeean]

Another option is to use CA as the finish. I've done that on a few pieces, but it's a lot more work than other finishes. Sometimes CA stains will disappear if you use a lacquer finish.

Here is a very good HEPA dust mask that can be used many times before needing to be replaced. It is made by 3M and rated P100. The cost is about $12 each.

There are other comparable masks. The important thing is to know that breathing wood dust isn't good. If I breathe cedar dust it will give me a splitting headache and plug up my sinuses for a couple days.

Thank you Bill, I appreciate that very much! I will get some tonight for sure. The bowl has developed a few more cracks already, I think this one is a bust? I will attach a picture of my blank, what would you guys suggest? What's the best way to turn this without cracking it?

 

[Dean Center]

3M and other manufacturers make half face respirators that are commonly sold in hardware and big box stores for around $30. They often come with filters designed for paint and solvent vapors. These work OK on sanding dust, but when it's time to replace the filters, less expensive P100 filters (round) are available. Some people don't like wearing the half face respirators or have difficulty getting an adequate fit, especially people with beards. But the bang for the buck is very high. I discovered I was allergic to rocky mountain juniper, a very close relative of eastern red cedar, and I can turn it without any difficulty when wearing my 3M half face respirator. Sadly, you do lose the aroma of the wood, which I normally enjoy.

 

[Dylan Skeean]

3M and other manufacturers make half face respirators that are commonly sold in hardware and big box stores for around $30. They often come with filters designed for paint and solvent vapors. These work OK on sanding dust, but when it's time to replace the filters, less expensive P100 filters (round) are available. Some people don't like wearing the half face respirators or have difficulty getting an adequate fit, especially people with beards. But the bang for the buck is very high. I discovered I was allergic to rocky mountain juniper, a very close relative of eastern red cedar, and I can turn it without any difficulty when wearing my 3M half face respirator. Sadly, you do lose the aroma of the wood, which I normally enjoy.

I might give that a try, I really don't mind the half face type, and I just shaved my beard down to a small goatee so that won't be an issue for now. But you're right, I love the smell of this cedar so that will be the only draw-back. I have to start protecting myself, especially with some of the spalted wood! Thank you for the reply Dean, much appreciated!

 

[Tom Gall]

One of our long time club member's favorite woods was red cedar.....it was his wood of choice for many years! I can't specifically say there is any correlation, but he died last year from lung cancer. From diagnosis to passing - it happened very quickly.

 

[Dylan Skeean]

One of our long time club member's favorite woods was red cedar.....it was his wood of choice for many years! I can't specifically say there is any correlation, but he died last year from lung cancer. From diagnosis to passing - it happened very quickly.

One never knows how the cancer starts. I was a healthy 44 year old that barely ever caught a cold my entire life and then one day I had stomach aches and before I knew it I was hooked up to a pole feeding me chemo! Stage IV colorectal cancer at 44, very unusual until I joined a cancer forum and found out that it's very common at our age, and even younger! I will never know how I got cancer and they can't tell me why it keeps coming back! It's relentless and exhausting.

 

[Dean Center]

Regarding wood dust and cancer:
There appears to be agreement that wood dust exposure increases the risk of cancer of the nose and sinuses. These are rare cancers in the US. The consensus seems to be that softwood exposure does not increase the risk (pine, spruce) but that hardwood dust exposure increases the risk about 40%, which is still a very low risk.

There appear to be mixed results related to lung cancer. The best report from the US (Bhatti, et al) suggests that there is a risk only in sawmill workers and not in carpenters, furniture makers or hobbyists. It's also possible that smoking habits account for the difference in the groups. (Smoking is a WAY bigger risk than working with wood.)

I could find only a little information on specific woods, mostly from Europe. No mention of cedar/juniper. In Washington state, cedar shingle makers are lumped in with sawmill and plywood plant workers in these studies. However, one study showed that working outside could substantially reduce the risk (good for you, Bill) and the highest exposure risk came with sanding and USING COMPRESSED AIR TO BLOW OFF DUST. (this is a 'duh' statement for most of you and I include it just in case our local high school shop teacher reads this )

Apparently, there is not enough data to relate wood dust exposure to any other type of cancer.

So sayeth Medline. I will now get down from the soap box and wish you a Merry Christmas.

 

[hockenbery]

USING COMPRESSED AIR TO BLOW OFF DUST.

extremely poor practice as you say.

This seems to be compulsory behavior in some people. I hesitate to say in all shop teachers in case I should meet one who does not love the smell of micro dust between classes.

I don’t think there are many ways to make the air more harmeful to breath than by blowing dust all over.

I had one guy brings portable blower to my shop to clean up after class.
He got a little miffed when I told him he could not use it inside.

I do use compressed air when hollowing. This is almost always wet wood and not too much dust in it but there is some so I have fans going to move the air out of the shop.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

One never knows how the cancer starts. I was a healthy 44 year old that barely ever caught a cold my entire life and then one day I had stomach aches and before I knew it I was hooked up to a pole feeding me chemo! Stage IV colorectal cancer at 44, very unusual until I joined a cancer forum and found out that it's very common at our age, and even younger! I will never know how I got cancer and they can't tell me why it keeps coming back! It's relentless and exhausting.

Sorry to hear about your bout with cancer. Praying for long-term success.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Another option is to use CA as the finish. I've done that on a few pieces, but it's a lot more work than other finishes. Sometimes CA stains will disappear if you use a lacquer finish.

Here is a very good HEPA dust mask that can be used many times before needing to be replaced. It is made by 3M and rated P100. The cost is about $12 each.

There are other comparable masks. The important thing is to know that breathing wood dust isn't good. If I breathe cedar dust it will give me a splitting headache and plug up my sinuses for a couple days.

I have used these 3M masks, they are really good...

 

[Dylan Skeean]

Sorry to hear about your bout with cancer. Praying for long-term success.

Thank you very much, I really appreciate that!

I have used these 3M masks, they are really good...

Good, these are the ones I'm going to order. I have gone too long without any protection, I've only been turning for 4 to 5 months so far. Thanks for the reply, always appreciated.