Do we support design knock-offs?

[Owen Lowe]

Strong feelings accompany every conversation on copying another's design and yet we seem to turn a blind eye toward tool manufacturers who reverse engineer the popular tools we use to produce their own knock-off version. Consider the following examples:

Probably two of the most blatant:
Jet's > Tormek
Jet/Powermatic's > Oneway live center

(perhaps licensed from the original company, perhaps not, I don't know):
Sorby's > Stewart Armbrace/Hooker system
Kelton/Bosch/McNaugton/Hosaluk > Oneway Mastercut handles

Have those mentioned above added valuable and innovative improvements to the original designs? Instead of grabbing someone else's piece of the pie, new ideas and taking the craft forward come from dreaming up and baking your own pie recipe.

 

[John Van Domelen]

Never really thought about all those similar hollowing systems...

 

[Steve Worcester]

The Oneway is the copy of the Hosaluk, but I don't know if the others are all copies. The Bosch is a bit different, and I would say an improvement.

The Jet - Oneway is pretty blatant, but we don't know if the design is licensed or not.

 

[hockenbery]

I'll add pirated DVD's

That is a bunch of individuals stealing from a woodturner.

I think with the tool handles there are interchangeable handles dating from the 1800s and possibly earlier. I have an antique carving set with one handle and 5 chisels it has a collet lock. My guess is the turning tool handles would not qualify for a patent with the technolgy well established in the Public domain.

How many lathe companies now have Swing away extension for the tail stock.

happy turning,
Al

 

[Jake Debski]

Jet routinely "borrows" designs but only, supposedly, after patents etc. have run out. In the case of Oneway's live center I think they jumped the gun and it cost them. They added a release lever to the Bessy high end clamps and market them as do a couple other companies.

If you look very closely this reverse engineering is common practice in the tool industry. I remember back in the early '80's a Chinese company put out a cheap table saw that went so far as using an exact copy of the Delta Uni-Saw instruction book, part numbers and all as their operating manual.

Right or wrong, that's more or less a moral question that gets buried by the desire to find a "bargain price." I wish I could say I'm pure enough to throw stones but I'm not.

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

I guess I look at the whole issue a little differently. I used to work for a company that had a monopoly position in the US. There was little innovation, little choice and no incentive to reduce prices for the customer. It was a great company to work for. Very profitable and very good to its employees. The customers may or may not have been happy with the service and products offered, but who cared? It's not like they had a choice.

In the mid 80's the US government ended the monopoly and the flood gates of competition opened. Profitability went down. The empolyees that managed to hang on to their jobs didn't have it nearly as good as they used to. The customers were delighted (except for those pesky telemarketers). New services, new products, prices a small fraction of what they used to be. Was competition a good thing? Depends on your point of view I guess. Objectively I have to say it was, but I sure did miss having a monopoly.

As a consumer of woodworking products, I welcome competition among my suppliers. As long as they are not breaking any laws then I have no problem with how they get their product to market. Reverse engineering or forward engineering makes no difference to me. If a company has good quality at the right price and good service, then they get my business. It's good for the customers if companies have to continually innovate to maintain their position in the market. Innovation is hard and expensive. Without the threat of competition, it's too easy for companies to sit back and milk existing products.

Stealing intellectual property (like copying DVDs or violating patents) is not acceptable in my opinion and is something completely different than "reverse engineering."

It's not like this whole issue is unique to woodworking. Ever take a generic drug? Driven a car? Talked on a phone?

Ed

 

[KEW]

I don't think you can consider a motor driven, water cooled grinding wheel as Tormek's proprietary design; but certainly the tool arm and jigs are a definite copy. Strangely, JET did not copy the jig which is used for sharpening fingernail gouges. Maybe Tormek had a patent on it?

 

[odie]

I can't give you any examples of this, but I've heard there are "pirate companies", usually based overseas, that specialize in patent infringement. Getting sued is expected, and they are able to take a large piece of the pie before legal action can stop them. Paying lawyers to prolong proceedings, and paying a final settlement is all part of the cost of doing business.

It seems that making money, no matter how it's done, is the plan. Ethics play little role in the scheme of things for many "businessmen".....but, I guess this the same as it's ALWAYS been.

otis of cologne

 

[Owen Lowe]

As a consumer of woodworking products, I welcome competition among my suppliers. As long as they are not breaking any laws then I have no problem with how they get their product to market. Reverse engineering or forward engineering makes no difference to me. If a company has good quality at the right price and good service, then they get my business. It's good for the customers if companies have to continually innovate to maintain their position in the market. Innovation is hard and expensive. Without the threat of competition, it's too easy for companies to sit back and milk existing products.

Do you feel similarly with those who knock-off Ellsworth, Jordan, Tibbets, etc? If not, why the difference between turners' products and tool companies' products?

Actually, what you describe isn't competition in my view; it's a parasitic practice driven by putting in as little effort and expense as possible to pull sales away from an established product. What innovation did Jet bring to the Tormek-type sharpening system? Same vertical wheel, same boxy design, same jig-style. If Jet had come up with a water-cooled sharpening system that didn't appear to be a Tormek copy I'd applaud their efforts and consider that competition.

 

[bob elliott]

we all drive cars, don't we?

"...on copying another's design and yet we seem to turn a blind eye toward tool manufacturers who reverse engineer the popular tools we use to produce their own knock-off version. Instead of grabbing someone else's piece of the pie, new ideas and taking the craft forward come from dreaming up and baking your own pie recipe.

Owen,
If you replace the word tools with automobiles, we see the same thing. From body style to technology, it seems to be the norm, has been happening for decades and the public supports it. There are a few innovators in the auto industry with copy cat manufacturers ready to do what they do best.

 

[Griesbach]

Generic drugs occur when the patent runs out on the original drug. I believe that when I first read about the new Jet shapening system that the article mentioned the Tormek patent had expired but that the turning gouge jig did not. For what it's worth.

 

[john lucas]

It's not just Jet. Look at all the lookalike chucks on the market. These are virtually exact copies. I bought one of the Vicmarc lookalikes from Grizzly to see if it was the same. You can even swap jaws. It's not as good a chuck and I will probably buy another Vicmarc but if your on a budget a chuck for half the price is something that many people won't or can't pass up.
Does that mean that we are supporting the copies. probably. Money talks.

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Do you feel similarly with those who knock-off Ellsworth, Jordan, Tibbets, etc? If not, why the difference between turners' products and tool companies' products?

If the product is legal I'm ok with it. If it is better and / or less expensive that's even better. I personally consider quality more important than price, but I don't expect everyone else to feel the same way. That's the reality of a capitalist system. People are free to make their purchase decisions using their own personal criteria.

Actually, what you describe isn't competition in my view; it's a parasitic practice driven by putting in as little effort and expense as possible to pull sales away from an established product. What innovation did Jet bring to the Tormek-type sharpening system? Same vertical wheel, same boxy design, same jig-style. If Jet had come up with a water-cooled sharpening system that didn't appear to be a Tormek copy I'd applaud their efforts and consider that competition.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but lets look at the facts with respect to the Tormek / Jet. Jet sells for less, but they also cut some corners to get the cost down. However, Jet added quite a few new features and made significant changes to the wet grinder. Some of these are improvements and some aren't. They didn't just do a 100% knock-off of the tormek. The jet is a better choice for some and the tormek is a better choice for others. Bottom line is that now customers have a choice.

Now Tormek has to make some choices. They can fix some of the deficiencies in their current product and take sales away from Jet. They can accept lower profits, reduce their price and take sales away from Jet. They can do nothing, accept a loss of customers to Jet and hope that the Jet eventually goes away.

Tormek seems to be choosing the third option at the moment (do nothing). Hopefully they will ultimately choose the first option and dramatically improve their product.

Before you start feeling real sorry for tormek you might want to consider the new truing jig that they introduced. It's a screw feed type arrangement. A small entrepreneur introduced a screw feed truing jig for the tormek years ago. Tormek didn't lose any sleep putting that guy out of business.

That's business.

Ed

 

[waltfb]

Harbor Freight now sells a knockoff of the Tormach and Jet Grinders. It's made out of plastic and you can buy four of them for the price of a Tormach or three for the price of the Jet. If it works you get what you pay for. Use it up, wear it out, then buy another one ;-)

BTW, I have a wet grinder made by an unknown company years ago> Sears also sold the same with their name on it. It has a cast iron body and built in speed reduction although it needs an external motor. Just what did Tormach invent when wet grinders have been around for many years?

Walt

 

[Dave Roller]

Surely no one feels sorry for Tormek! Their price is high and it has been fixed. Should their patent have lasted forever?

 

[John Abt]

Knockoffs and Copyright Infringement

I just wanted to add my thoughts.

I do not support, in any manner, the peracy and theft of intellectual property. However, one has to ask the question "Has something been stolen?"

Many of us are not in the position to know whether a design has been ripped off. We see the similarities in products and make the assumption that it is a copyright or patent infringement.

I was recently at a demonstration of hollow turning in which the demonstrator said that the grind he used on his bowl gouges was <mine>/Ellsworth/<mine>. (Can you guess that I don't want to name him?)

I wonder: is it an Irish grind, O'Neil grind, Ellsworth grind, ....... or what are the differences? This question is strictly rhetorical. In the cosmic order, it doesn't signify anything.

The bottom line is that it is up to the company or individual to protect their own intellectual propery. We do not know if there had been some sort of business deal in the background or whether the company we see as the "victim" is really a victim.

 

[robert davis]

rudy osolnik was happy that his candlesticks wer sopied by the thousands,,didnt care if they were sold. his sold for many times the copies..there are several in my house..one osolnik.

 

[Vernon Oberle]

who's grind??

Many times someone will like a particular grind (or something else in public domain) and espouse its merits. Others then call it his even though he had little or nothing to do with its creation. It's kind of like bowl or vessel shapes that are attributed to someone and if you look back in history at pottery and such you find there are very few new shapes.

Vernon

 

[KEW]

Jimmy Clewes found out there was a hollowing rig with his name on it at CSU only after a spectator in one of his demo's asked him about it!

 

[Paul Engle]

You know, some say copying is a form of flattery. I not too sure about that. When I posted my pipe collect handles on another venue i got emails about public domain, copyright, etc. to me the off the shelf parts to make a friction collect handle for less than 14$( and no machine work ) was pretty cool, and someone had to ruin my day with legalities. I know it made some of the high priced handle makers wonder , trained as a machinist(outside) I know mine is every bit as good as theirs and It was made with " off the hardware shelf " parts, and I'd steal their bussiness if I could but with the parts in public domain..... and you know what ? it works very well and they should be nervious. $45 to 115$ for a piece of steel with a plastic cover on it and two set screws .... scheessh.Now what do you think they would do if I did the same thing? oh yea their collect cost a little bit more than the 3.95$ I paid for mine.

 

[robert davis]

You know, some say copying is a form of flattery. I not too sure about that. When I posted my pipe collect handles on another venue i got emails about public domain, copyright, etc. to me the off the shelf parts to make a friction collect handle for less than 14$( and no machine work ) was pretty cool, and someone had to ruin my day with legalities. I know it made some of the high priced handle makers wonder , trained as a machinist(outside) I know mine is every bit as good as theirs and It was made with " off the hardware shelf " parts, and I'd steal their bussiness if I could but with the parts in public domain..... and you know what ? it works very well and they should be nervious. $45 to 115$ for a piece of steel with a plastic cover on it and two set screws .... scheessh.Now what do you think they would do if I did the same thing? oh yea their collect cost a little bit more than the 3.95$ I paid for mine.

how do i get yours?

 

[robert davis]

You know, some say copying is a form of flattery. I not too sure about that. When I posted my pipe collect handles on another venue i got emails about public domain, copyright, etc. to me the off the shelf parts to make a friction collect handle for less than 14$( and no machine work ) was pretty cool, and someone had to ruin my day with legalities. I know it made some of the high priced handle makers wonder , trained as a machinist(outside) I know mine is every bit as good as theirs and It was made with " off the hardware shelf " parts, and I'd steal their bussiness if I could but with the parts in public domain..... and you know what ? it works very well and they should be nervious. $45 to 115$ for a piece of steel with a plastic cover on it and two set screws .... scheessh.Now what do you think they would do if I did the same thing? oh yea their collect cost a little bit more than the 3.95$ I paid for mine.

how does one get yours?

 

[Brian Hahn]

When I posted my pipe collect handles on another venue i got emails about public domain, copyright, etc..

Did you get a registered letter from their attorneys?
Can anyone give you a patent number?

It sounds like you got a bunch of very irritating spam from some obnoxious characters.

 

[Joe Greiner]

I don't know where, or if, this fits, but here's my few cents' worth anyway.

The US patent system has gone off the rails. Some patents have been issued for truly ridiculous "improvements." Some dimensions of this problem are a shortage of qualified examiners and a requirement that the patent office show a profit. There are movements afoot to remedy the problem by legislation.

Around the mid-19th century, it was proposed to close the patent office, because everything had already been invented.

In most jurisdictions, private use of a patented invention for non-commercial purposes is a valid defense against an infringement action. Commercial use requires a license from the patent holder. When the patent expires, whether by actual time expiration or non-payment of maintenance fees, the invention is fair game and reverts to the public domain.

Knowledge can't, or at least shouldn't, be bottled up, with the only access by payment of exorbitant prices. The only exception to this is inventions relating to national security; according to my imperfect understanding, a patent number might be issued but the text and images would be blocked. With over 7 million patents now issued, it would be a fool's errand to try to find them though. Almost all of the patents I've seen contain references to earlier work. The patent office database also includes forward references, i.e. later patents which reference the immediate patent. (Boink "Referenced by"). This is how knowledge expands.

Chips29, you may be on thin ice if you're selling a knock-off. But if you're only posting information for DIY implementation, I don't see why you should be at risk. Google the topic of an invention, or search the patent office database, and we're back where you started.

Note: I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on television, but I have stayed at Holiday Inn Express.

Joe

 

[Paul Engle]

Nope, no knock off,( well with so many patents out there how long would it take one to check thru em all ) not for sale Joe, that was what the question was about " off the shelf hardware" , to me , tho giving the idea out for free is more better. my personnal web site has the tutorial on how to make em. I'd much rather see anyone get this particular tool with out obligation to me. web site is:
http://mysite.verizon.net/respwkup/stuff/ ( beside if I sold this I'd have to go to work and it would NOT BE FUN anymore....)
there is NO advertising, NO pop ups , NO sales pitches , if you have any questions you can email me thru the site also.