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Do as I say, not as I do

W

Wayne Spence

Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
217
Likes
1
Location
Denver, Colorado
You have all heard of the famous ones who are given great accolades for getting over drug abuse or some such thing. They never talk about how dumb it was to do it in the first place. I am going to do something similar although I have never been famous for anything. Last monday a week ago I got a cut from the bandsaw on my right middle finger. Lucky on four counts, no loss of finger, tendon was not cut, nerve was not cut and the bone was not cut. It was a case of not following safety rules. Trimming a log for turning I was pushing it through when the blade went through the side and my hands suddenly went forward from lack of resistance. I am 74, quick reflexes, decent eyesight and after 4o plus years of woodworking getting careless. I had a similar accident one year ago with a drill press. I realize that every move I make must be thought through and I must slow down to a different pace.

Just saying this so all you getting up there in age will be extra careful and all you younger turners will be careful.

Happy turning
 
Wayne, glad things worked out so well

Which brings something to mind, the old quote of ,
Measure Twice, Cut Once
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is really only 2/3's of the real rule

Think Three Times
Measure Twice
Cut Once
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I'm trying to live more and more by this little rule

TTFN
Ralph
 
Hi Wayne!

On May 29th of this year I managed to kerf the fleshy part of my left thumb with a Freud combination blade on my table saw - this the first time in over 30 years of using table saws that I have ever injured myself on a blade under power. (I have nicked my hands on newly sharpened blades.) Like you, I was extremely lucky.

In addition to having the blade height set one tooth above the stock, I also had featherboards, hold downs, etc. in place for ripping a 6 ft. long thin strip of oak to be used to complete the trim moulding around a new front entryway door I installed. All the safety precautions had been taken, with the exception that I sometimes steady thin stock AFTER the cut has been made to reduce vibration, simply by steadying the moving piece against the table with my left thumb as it moves away from the back side of the blade. About halfway into the cut, the outfeed part of the stock started vibrating very badly, so I attempted to steady it for the rest of the cut. My accident occurred when my hand slipped off the moving stock and into the back of the blade. A new and wonderful woodworking experience! Fortunately no muscle, bone, or nerve damage. Not even enough tissue left to stitch - they used cyanoacrylate glue to seal the wound.

The "teachable moment" from this (beyond the obvious "keep your fingers out of the blade, stupid!") is that I now have an easily accessible first aid kit even closer to the "action" areas of the shop (mine was on the wall near the shop door, just above the fire extinguisher), and that some form of a post-blade hold down needs to be developed before I attempt such cuts again.

I am now a more unique person, in that the fingerprint of my left thumb now has a telltale track of scar tissue interrupting what was once a textbook loop with a perfect delta (Fingerprinting Merit Badge raises its head 38 years later!).

Rob Wallace
 
Wayne and Rob, it wasn't your fault...

Rob Wallace said:
...I managed to kerf the fleshy part of my left thumb with a Freud combination blade on my table saw - this the first time in over 30 years of using table saws that I have ever injured myself on a blade under power. (I have nicked my hands on newly sharpened blades.) Like you, I was extremely lucky...
Rob Wallace
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My wife works at an insurance company and brought home the following news:

Design Defect? You Bet! Jury Awards $1.5 Million

Subro (as in subrogation) panel counsel (name withheld) and the firm of Bois Schiller & Flexner took their first table saw case to trial. Many table saw operators who are injured suffer amputations of one or more of their fingers. However, if “Saw Stop†technology was present on all saws, injuries could be reduced to small lacerations requiring anything from a band-aid to a few stitches. The case taken to trial by Bois Schiller & Flexner against One World Technologies, Inc., maker of Ryobi saws, will pave the way for future legal decisions involving table saws, as the jury passed a verdict declaring the saw to be defective by design because it lacked flesh detecting technology.

I can remember when the Saw Stop was first introduced and the inventor approached the major saw manufacturers who quickly dismissed the idea of installing Saw Stops on new units due to increased costs to consumers. The inventor went on to introduce his own line of table saws ready equipped with the Saw Stop.
I guess it's safe to assume that the cost of all manufacturer's new table saws will experience an increase.
 
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bob elliott said:
....
I can remember when the Saw Stop was first introduced and the inventor approached the major saw manufacturers who quickly dismissed the idea of installing Saw Stops on new units due to increased costs to consumers. The inventor went on to introduce his own line of table saws ready equipped with the Saw Stop.
I guess it's safe to assume that the cost of all manufacturer's new table saws will experience an increase.
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The owner of Grizzly is active on another forum, he has a very low opinion of the owner of Saw Stop. Yes, when Saw Stop first came out Grizzly was approached to license Saw Stop. As I recall the discussion the license cost was so high that Grizzly would have had to stop making any of the low/medium end saws.
As I recall, then the owner of Saw Stop tried to get the US Consumer Projection Agency to mandate that all Table Saw's use the Saw Stop. They didn't.

I expect he would have not been actually happy if they had. One of the parts of US Patent law that doesn't get discussed often is that, if the US Government decides that it's in the "Public Interest" they can effectively seize the patent. If Saw Stop was mandated, they might have done that also.
 
shop injuries

About two years ago I became convinced that at least one "insurance policy" covering shop injury might be needed--so I bought a Saw Stop. Best investment I have made for years.
Rob, statistics about table saw injuries show most involve operators just like you and me. In the last couple of years four of my woodworking friends have visited emergency medical centers to have finger repairs of tblsaw injury. Guess how much that cost.
I do keep a first aid kit in the shop & use it all too often on little cuts carelessness causes.
Being in the last two years of my seventh decade visiting earth has slowed down reflexes, required cataract repair, etc. Last injury was careless band saw operation--just a 'nick' of left index finger. Stupid.
 
Wayne
I'm certain you have seen the common video Saw Stop uses to show the saw, where they run a hotdog into the blade, and (of course) it slams down.

But, for a more, eh, effective video, you want to see the footage from TimeWarp, a TV show that does high-speed video. Well, they did a bit on SawStop, but they talked the owner into actually testing it with his hand. As I recall there was a small nick (not even through the epidermis).

This video is available commonly on-line (YouTube, MetaCafe, etc)

It really does work
TTFN
Ralph
 
n7bsn

What I am asking is have there been any suits filed against Sawstop for injuries received while operating the saw. The number, if any, would be a good indication of its effectiveness. (I don't know if effectiveness is a word but I am not going to look it up.)

Is there some secret, clandestine, or medieval religious significance to n7bsn? You know you don't have to answer that.

Happy turning
 
Wayne Spence said:
What I am asking is have there been any suits filed against Sawstop for injuries received while operating the saw. The number, if any, would be a good indication of its effectiveness. (I don't know if effectiveness is a word but I am not going to look it up.)

Is there some secret, clandestine, or medieval religious significance to n7bsn? You know you don't have to answer that.

Happy turning
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I am waiting for someone to sue them because it ruined their Forest WW2 blade instead of cutting off their hand.
 
Wayne,
I am familiar with the videos that Ralph has listed, but I can not site any statistics. Additionally, my 15 year old table saw is SawStop free.
 
Wayne Spence said:
What I am asking is have there been any suits filed against Sawstop for injuries received while operating the saw. ...
Click to expand...

I did a little searching and didn't find any, which might (?) mean there aren't any (or that I just couldn't find them)

I did find that the owner of SawStop testified for the plaintive in the earlier mentioned legal proceedings.
 
Wayne Spence said:
What I am asking is have there been any suits filed against Sawstop for injuries received while operating the saw. The number, if any, would be a good indication of its effectiveness. (I don't know if effectiveness is a word but I am not going to look it up.)

Is there some secret, clandestine, or medieval religious significance to n7bsn? You know you don't have to answer that.

Happy turning
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Wayne, according to the rep from Saw Stop they have yet to receive any notice of a law suit. They were called to testify at the Ryobi trial. Ryobi lost because they had originally signed up to purchase the technology but backed out of the contract after learning none of the other manufacturers had made the commitment.
 
I have watched demo's live of the saw stop. It works. I've watched him put his finger into the blade, that's impressive. I've also seen the saw stop fire on it's own with dry wood and ruin a $130 dollar blade. The system works no doubt about it but for people on budgets like mine it is so far out of reach I couldn't afford one if I wanted it. consequently I'll just have to keep on paying attention to what I'm doing like I've done for almost 30 years of owning a table saw. Still have all my fingers so far.
In reality I would like to have one. I know some day I may make a mistake that costs me. However upgrading to a saw that is almost 3 times what mine cost simply isn't possible. Not without selling my lathe and that ain't gonna happen. 🙂
 
If lawsuits are going to be won because a technology is not present in a machine where would this ever stop? How many other types of machinery could this technology be used on? This boggles the mind. I'm sure with some serious engineering all power tools could be made to stop on flesh contact. Band saws, drill press', disk sanders (I have trimmed my nails a few times) etc. where would it stop. Could we ever afford to buy another other tool or piece of machinery?

Hmmmm, how could they screw up a wood lathe?

If this is upheld on appeals I can see this moving to other items as well. Some cars have automatic braking systems to keep you from slamming into the rear of another car, so if I rear end somebody can I sue because my car does not have that technology? This is going to be a disaster for all I'm afraid. Lawyers may think it's fantastic.

William N. Nelson
 
I just spendt 4 hours working on my ignition to my truck. All the "safety" gear mandated to keep people from being stupid is tied together and a nightmare to fix. I would get the key latch adjusted and then the steering wheel wouldn't work. Get the brake switch adjusted and then you can't get the key out of the iginition. The Brake switch and Parking break solenoid work together and if either is off by a few thou. the key won't come out or you can't turn the key. Needless to say I had a few choice words for lawyers (sorry Mark, not you) and the stupid people who forced them to put all this stuff on the car. It should have been a 15 minute repair, instead it took me half a day and I was so frustrated I had to take a break before doing anything else.
My bicycle has what we refer to as Lawyer lips on the front forks. These are tabs that keep the wheel from coming off if the wheel locks get loose. It now requires about 5 revolutions of the locking nuts to get the wheel off. I've been riding a bicycle for 55 years (probably close to 100,000 miles) and never had my front wheel come off. Apparently someone did, sued and guess what, the bike has new safety gear installed. As dangerous as this vehicle is I'm surprised it doesn't have an Airbag ball that inflates and surrounds you in case of an accident.
In a few years our new lathes will have a breathalyzer so you can't turn if you've had a beer. It will have a safety shield sensor so it won't run unless your wearing that. It will have a dust collecting shroud around the headstock and the lathe won't run unless it's closed. It will have 3D laser sensors to track gouge movement, if you are about to get a catch it will shut down. It will sense your hands and if you wear gloves won't start (of course there will be blackmarket chips available for those who do wear gloves) The lathe will only start at slow speed and you have to manually advance it to the proper setting. The RPM will be limited by the machine based on the size of wood you put on the lathe.
The chainsaw. Forget it, you won't even be allowed to use those anymore. All of the safety equipment required on the saw was so expensive the chainsaw companies simply closed down rather than retool to meet the restrictive demands. The saw would cost $5,000 to sell and the market simply wouldn't be there.
 
I just nicked my finger while cutting tomatoes, where was the Knife Stop to save me from such a terrible fate? Boo Hoo.
Somebody needs to start working on the Bullet Stop. This would be highly technical as only the Good Guys bullets should be able to do their job.
 
Safety issues

john lucas said:
I just spendt 4 hours working on my ignition to my truck. All the "safety" gear mandated to keep people from being stupid is tied together and a nightmare to fix. I would get the key latch adjusted and then the steering wheel wouldn't work. Get the brake switch adjusted and then you can't get the key out of the iginition. The Brake switch and Parking break solenoid work together and if either is off by a few thou. the key won't come out or you can't turn the key. Needless to say I had a few choice words for lawyers (sorry Mark, not you) and the stupid people who forced them to put all this stuff on the car. It should have been a 15 minute repair, instead it took me half a day and I was so frustrated I had to take a break before doing anything else.surrounds you in case of an accident.

John-I bought a cub cadet rideamower (50") last fall. After you have it running and have the PTO (mower) on, it will shut off if you go in reverse.The reason is some idiot ran over his child and chopped him up. Sued and won.
Now they have a different ignition where you turn it on, then turn the key to another position to obviate this stalling , and then you push a button as well to be sure you really really, really mean it and don't want to chop up your child!!!! 😕Gretch
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GretchFlo John Lucas wnnelson

You recall the guy in the 70's who cut off some limb while trimming the top of his hedges while holding up his power mower? He sued, I never heard the verdict. Those stories are legion , they end up in law suits, verdicts that in the end make us pay more for products and add to government power.
 
Wayne, I remember the story too but never saw any more about it in the news

we have a case in southern Kentucky this month involving a a mower where the blade came off and travel over 50 feet and straight thru. a house wall,---lucky nobody got hurt, the funny thing is that the mower operator never know it until the man that were at home run outside and told the operator
 
Deep pocket theory--

Among we feeble minded lawyers there exists a maxim that any "good" injury can be a mother load-if a deep pocket can be found and sued-and-if-one can just get the case to a jury. Modern society wallows in the idea that whenever someone suffers, is hurt, disabled, they should be paid-compensated-stupidity is beside the point.
Never thought I would see the theory in a printed court dicision-but lo and behold an appeal court dissent plainly stated the little girl was seriously hurt, would need special care into the future and the defendant could afford to pay for all that while her parents are unable to do so! The dissent was to the majority confirmation of summary judgment in favor of the defendant--oops never got to the jury!
 
Gretch Flo said:
My neighbor and I were talking about the saw stop. She was researching last nite and sent me this site. It is a quick read and more info on the history of saw stop. Gretch

http://www.protoolreviews.com/news/editorials/bosch-tools-sawstop-lawsuit
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Gretch Flo, thanks for the link. The Saw Stop rep, when I spoke with him, neglected to tell me of the maneuvering to make the technology mandatory.

All that aside. In my view, if you choose to purchase a saw without the protection for your personal use, you and you alone are accountable for that choice. If the saw is purchased to be used by others, employees, students, etc. You can bet any accident will be laid in your lap fairly or otherwise.
 
can the device that control the saw be rework for the control of other tools examples are drill press,band saws,jig saws Sabre saws, even vacuum cleaners need this control sometimes
 
Accident

I received a call from Kaiser asking about the circumstances of my accident and the equipment used by name. Lawyers are not the only ones concerned.
 
Safety stuff

I posted somewhere on my take on all this safety stuff. Where is swimming pool stop? Where is walking too close to a cliff stop? We spend hundreds of dollars on safety features on cars but the government doesn't spend a penny on a safe driver. My father always said the most important part of a car is the nut that holds the steering wheel!
Look at it on the bright side. Your table saw will be worth a fortune in years to come because no one can afford one with the safety crap!
To show how people get around regulations, put an old style high-water-volume toilet at the curb and time how long it sits at the curb. People build new houses, have the required toilets installed and, after inspection, install the old style toilets so you don't have to flush three times.
Funniest joke in the world: I'm from the government and I'm here to help you!
 
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John Torchick said:
I posted somewhere on my take on all this safety stuff. Where is swimming pool stop? Where is walking too close to a cliff stop? We spend hundreds of dollars on safety features on cars but the government doesn't spend a penny on a safe driver. My father always said the most important part of a car is the nut that holds the steering wheel!
Look at it on the bright side. Your table saw will be worth a fortune in years to come because no one can afford one with the safety crap!
To show how people get around regulations, put an old style high-water-volume toilet at the curb and time how long it sits at the curb. People build new houses, have the required toilets installed and, after inspection, install the old style toilets so you don't have to flush three times.
Funniest joke in the world: I'm from the government and I'm here to help you!
Click to expand...

John, our home water is from a well. Saving water is important, we save water where we can. It frees up water for the gardens, etc. I recently installed two American Standard water saver toilets, I'll put them against any mfg's. modern regular toilets. Others results may vary, but I'm sold on them.
 
Straying -WAY- Off topic

Jake Debski said:
John, our home water is from a well. Saving water is important, we save water where we can. It frees up water for the gardens, etc. I recently installed two American Standard water saver toilets, I'll put them against any mfg's. modern regular toilets. Others results may vary, but I'm sold on them.
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The first generation water saver units worked, well, poorly.

The current units work great, I'm really impressed with the new two-stage units. Stage one, for well, one, and stage two for the other, stage one uses even less water
 
Wayne Spence said:
Have you ever tried turning while sitting at one of those newfangled toilets? It isn't fun.
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Whadda ya mean, I can't even get my lathe thru the back door, much less down the hall and into the bathroom😀
I don't know if I could turn sitting down or not. Sure if I were to get hurt and that was the only way I could turn, I get it done
 
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