Didn't realize that roughing bowls was such great practice!

[Ric Williams]

The only turning I've been doing lately is roughing bowls from blanks I'd processed recently and, after or so 25 bowls, I seem to have hit a threshold. All of a sudden the tooling marks have all but disappeared, the wall thicknesses are getting more consistent on the first try, and the finish cuts are coming out really smooth! It's really encouraging! I've been roughing like I was finish turning except with thicker walls and the repetition has really paid off. Hopefully, I'll have equally good results with drying. I've been following the common guidelines for roughing, then sealing with the PVA green wood sealer that Craft Supplies USA sells, so in a couple months I should have an idea of how well I did. So far it's been just about all cherry and mulberry, but I've got a bunch of Siberian elm, apple, hickory and white oak to do too.

 

[Karl Best]

Same here. Over the winter I cut down an ash and a walnut, and rough turned most of them. I've now got about 125 bowls sitting in the back of the garage for next winter. It's fun getting in production mode and turning a dozen outsides then a dozen insides. The insides go really quick. But now I've got to get out of production mode, slow down a bit, and concentrate on quality instead of quantity. (I don't sell these, just give them away, so I can go slowly.)

 

[hockenbery]

When we turn a lot of the same thing we get good at it.
the later ones take a fraction of the time and are higher quality than the first ones.

had a 13 year old student who was semi self directed. warren had done napkin rings in two clases.
He asked if he could do them next week adding that he did 2 in the first class period and 4 in the second class period
he was sure he could do 6 in a third period. I told him he could do napkin rings again but instead of trying to make 6 he should make 1 good one, then another good one… then at the end of the day he would have all good ones.
he might have 6 or 8 or 3 but he will be happy with all of them. Warren got it.

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

I write the date and species of wood on the bottom with magic marker. You can read it through the sealer after it dries. If you want the bowls to be dry for finish turn plan on about a year.

 

[Dean Center]

It is supposed to take 10,000 repetitions to develop muscle memory. Making 25-50 of something doesn't quite get you there, but it really accelerates your skill development. Thanks for reminding us.

 

[Ric Williams]

I write the date and species of wood on the bottom with magic marker. You can read it through the sealer after it dries. If you want the bowls to be dry for finish turn plan on about a year.

I put the date and the weight (in grams) after the sealer dries. Every 2-4 weeks I'll weigh a bunch to see if they're still losing weight. I figure that after 2-3 months I'll start to get an idea of the failure rate from cracking, but I have no preconceptions about how long it'll take for them to be ready to finish turn. Or Finnish turn. I know someone who thought that finish carpenters were Scandinavian. When I Finnish turn a bowl, should I use Danish oil when I'm done?

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

I have a question: why would one want/need two miter slots on a bandsaw or how useful might that be?

I put the date and the weight (in grams) after the sealer dries. Every 2-4 weeks I'll weigh a bunch to see if they're still losing weight. I figure that after 2-3 months I'll start to get an idea of the failure rate from cracking, but I have no preconceptions about how long it'll take for them to be ready to finish turn. Or Finnish turn. I know someone who thought that finish carpenters were Scandinavian. When I Finnish turn a bowl, should I use Danish oil when I'm done?

There are a lot of different finishes. I have used Danish Oil and it is ok. My favorite finish is General Finishes, Arm-R-Seal. I thin it down a little with mineral spirits. It won’t flake or peal like some of the poly’s will.

 

[robo hippy]

I have been turning some beautiful big leaf maple lately. Been a while since I turned many bowls. The first took a lot more work with the NRS and shear scraping. Kind of got out of practice. Didn't take too long to get back in the swing of things. Same with everything... Now that the swimming pool is open swim rather than reservations, I can get back in shape for swimming. Interesting how you can lose the 'feel' of things when you lay off....

robo hippy

 

[Ric Williams]

There are a lot of different finishes. I have used Danish Oil and it is ok. My favorite finish is General Finishes, Arm-R-Seal. I thin it down a little with mineral spirits. It won’t flake or peal like some of the poly’s will.

Sorry, that was supposed to be a pun on finish vs Finnish. My lame sense of humor again. I've used Danish oil on many turnings, though I prefer Watco Teak oil for a little more sheen. Also used Arm-R-Seal quite a bit on guitar bodies and necks as well as turnings. Lately I've been using shellac a lot as both a sanding sealer and a finish, usually with carnauba wax over it.

 

[Odie]

For informational purposes regarding Watco finishes:

View: https://youtu.be/mCHmjOGhij4

 

[Odie]

Regarding seasoning times.

I have not used the PVA wood sealer, but have been using the old wax based emulsions turners have been using for decades (or longer!). The PVA sealers state that seasoning times of a roughed bowl is less overall, than the wax based sealers. This may be true, but the only thing that will reduce seasoning times, is to release moisture at a faster rate. When you reduce the seasoning time, the internal stresses within the roughed bowl are more pronounced......and this is what we've always wanted to avoid in the first place.

We all want to finish turn without all the waiting.....but, the basic rule of thumb is that time is your friend when it comes to seasoning roughed bowls. The best seasoning strategy, is to have many bowls in the seasoning process at any one time. That way, you always have seasoned bowls ready for finish turning, while giving them plenty of time to season more slowly, as well as more successfully.

-----odie-----

 

[Ric Williams]

Regarding seasoning times.

I have not used the PVA wood sealer, but have been using the old wax based emulsions turners have been using for decades (or longer!). The PVA sealers state that seasoning times of a roughed bowl is less overall, than the wax based sealers. This may be true, but the only thing that will reduce seasoning times, is to release moisture at a faster rate. When you reduce the seasoning time, the internal stresses within the roughed bowl are more pronounced......and this is what we've always wanted to avoid in the first place.

We all want to finish turn without all the waiting.....but, the basic rule of thumb is that time is your friend when it comes to seasoning roughed bowls. The best seasoning strategy, is to have many bowls in the seasoning process at any one time. That way, you always have seasoned bowls ready for finish turning, while giving them plenty of time to season more slowly, as well as more successfully.

-----odie-----

I'm using the PVA sealer with this batch because that's what I have on hand. When I need more sealer I'll likely try a wax based one. I want to see how they both work for me, and which I prefer. The seasoning will take as long as it takes with either one, but if I screwed up wall thicknesses, etc., and am going to have cracking, I would expect to see it start to show up after a couple of months. Or, I could be totally wrong. I guess I'll find out

I'm just starting to get my seasoning process going, so I still have a lot of work to do to get to the point of providing a somewhat steady supply. But, I'm turning for enjoyment, so I do it at whatever pace works for me.
The good side of retirement.

 

[Odie]

I'm using the PVA sealer with this batch because that's what I have on hand. When I need more sealer I'll likely try a wax based one. I want to see how they both work for me, and which I prefer. The seasoning will take as long as it takes with either one, but if I screwed up wall thicknesses, etc., and am going to have cracking, I would expect to see it start to show up after a couple of months. Or, I could be totally wrong. I guess I'll find out

I'm just starting to get my seasoning process going, so I still have a lot of work to do to get to the point of providing a somewhat steady supply. But, I'm turning for enjoyment, so I do it at whatever pace works for me.
The good side of retirement.

Looking forward to your analysis, Ric......

-----odie-----

 

[Lou Jacobs]

Sorry, that was supposed to be a pun on finish vs Finnish.

Ric, I was going to speculate that framing carpenters were from Framingham.

 

[Kirk Amidon]

The only turning I've been doing lately is roughing bowls from blanks I'd processed recently and, after or so 25 bowls, I seem to have hit a threshold. All of a sudden the tooling marks have all but disappeared, the wall thicknesses are getting more consistent on the first try, and the finish cuts are coming out really smooth! It's really encouraging! I've been roughing like I was finish turning except with thicker walls and the repetition has really paid off. Hopefully, I'll have equally good results with drying. I've been following the common guidelines for roughing, then sealing with the PVA green wood sealer that Craft Supplies USA sells, so in a couple months I should have an idea of how well I did. So far it's been just about all cherry and mulberry, but I've got a bunch of Siberian elm, apple, hickory and white oak to do too.

Interesting observations - I'm at about the same place in learning, and as I've gone back to organize the bowls that I did first turnings on back in winter, there is definitely a lot of change in surface, arcs, and consistency. I'm not nearly to the "good" point yet, but moving in right direction. The speed is still not there, as I'm taking a solid hour plus on once turned bowls, not sure of timing on roughing as I've not roughed in a month or so.

Most of the bowl blanks I started in winter have survived drying process without cracking, but a few of the cherry ones cracked significantly. Don't think a single maple bowl has cracked.

I agree on it being encouraging to compare differences.

 

[robo hippy]

Maybe a topic for another thread, but since we brought up cracking and curing wood, some time ago, I noticed with my madrone, that if I get mid to late summer trees, they tend to crack a lot more than ones with the spring sap running. I am wondering if any one else has noticed this. Summer is our dry season, so maybe the trees go into that winter mode earlier than other places... I never did twice turned bowls....

robo hippy

 

[Hugh]

Robo Hippy,
I used to get Madrone in August.......Ukiah area of California. I would rough out the bowls and then boil them up. Then, I would seal them with Anchor Seal and put them away. At that time of the year, if I did not seal them, the bowl would crack. On occasion, I would get a tree in the late winter or early spring. I would rough out and boil them up, but did not have to seal them. I know....twice turned bowls. But, Madrone trees are green all year long. May not be moving as much sap during the winter.......but still keeping the green leaves happy moving food and such around the tree.

 

[robo hippy]

I never did the boiling because it was too much work. Add to that, it kind of muddles the colors together, which I didn't like. With the once turned bowls, later in the year always seems to have more cracking. Any madrone that is more than 5/16 or so thick is almost guaranteed to crack, and some times that is true even if you seal it. With thicker blanks it will crack. The boiling does prevent that, or at least greatly reduce it...

robo hippy

 

[Ric Williams]

Looking forward to your analysis, Ric......

-----odie-----

Well, I can already report that a good coat of PVA sealer hasn't done much good on some fairly green mulberry. I rough turned 3 mulberry bowls a couple weeks ago and sealed them with PVA right away. 2 have cracked already and all 3 have moved quite a bit in a short time, so naturally, they cracked. I've got 30 rough turned cherry bowls sealed the same way that have survived so far and not moved too much or too fast. I guess it's a good excuse to get some Anchorseal to see if it works any better with the next batch of rough turned mulberry.
I sealed the mulberry blanks with paraffin around the edges after I cut them out, hoping they'd keep until I could rough turn them, but the mulberry moved enough anyway that the paraffin flaked off some and they cracked even worse. Straight paraffin must be too brittle to move with the wood well enough. Wonder what I can blend with it to soften it a little. Bees wax? Or, forget the melted paraffin bit and just seal the mulberry blanks with Anchorseal until I get around to rough turning them?

 

[Odie]

Well, I can already report that a good coat of PVA sealer hasn't done much good on some fairly green mulberry. I rough turned 3 mulberry bowls a couple weeks ago and sealed them with PVA right away. 2 have cracked already and all 3 have moved quite a bit in a short time, so naturally, they cracked. I've got 30 rough turned cherry bowls sealed the same way that have survived so far and not moved too much or too fast. I guess it's a good excuse to get some Anchorseal to see if it works any better with the next batch of rough turned mulberry.
I sealed the mulberry blanks with paraffin around the edges after I cut them out, hoping they'd keep until I could rough turn them, but the mulberry moved enough anyway that the paraffin flaked off some and they cracked even worse. Straight paraffin must be too brittle to move with the wood well enough. Wonder what I can blend with it to soften it a little. Bees wax? Or, forget the melted paraffin bit and just seal the mulberry blanks with Anchorseal until I get around to rough turning them?

Thanks, Ric........I think if the wax based emulsion works on the mulberry, where the PVA didn't, that may say something there. However, if it doesn't, then the comparison of the two over several species may show a more conclusive evidence. As I said previously, it is generally considered that more seasoning time is an advantage across the board.

There is also the possibility of very fine cracks that are not noticeable to the eye prior to sealing a roughed bowl. In that case, the cracks may open up, no matter how much time, or type of sealer is used. This is generally limited to a particular batch of wood, or species......and heat created during the roughing out of a bowl. Sometimes, it's difficult to pinpoint the true causes and effects of an experimental process, until there is an analysis over many applications.

As stated, though......if the wax based emulsion works on the mulberry, where the PVA didn't, with no other variables......that would tend to be more conclusive........

Thank you for the come-back.....

-----odie-----

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

Well, I can already report that a good coat of PVA sealer hasn't done much good on some fairly green mulberry. I rough turned 3 mulberry bowls a couple weeks ago and sealed them with PVA right away. 2 have cracked already and all 3 have moved quite a bit in a short time, so naturally, they cracked. I've got 30 rough turned cherry bowls sealed the same way that have survived so far and not moved too much or too fast. I guess it's a good excuse to get some Anchorseal to see if it works any better with the next batch of rough turned mulberry.
I sealed the mulberry blanks with paraffin around the edges after I cut them out, hoping they'd keep until I could rough turn them, but the mulberry moved enough anyway that the paraffin flaked off some and they cracked even worse. Straight paraffin must be too brittle to move with the wood well enough. Wonder what I can blend with it to soften it a little. Bees wax? Or, forget the melted paraffin bit and just seal the mulberry blanks with Anchorseal until I get around to rough turning them?

Check out the green wood sealer at Rockler. It works the same as Anchorseal but is a lot cheaper. When I bought mine I got free shipping with two gallons.

 

[Ric Williams]

Another "progress" report. Out of 75 roughed bowls so far, 2 mulberry and 2 cherry have cracked. All were under 6" and all were sealed with PVA. All the cherry and mulberry bowls sealed with wax based sealer are intact so far and all the Siberian elm sealed with either PVA or wax emulsion are intact, but they're the most recent, so it may be too early to tell. That's not even close to a conclusive sampling, but my impression so far is that the PVA, which is claimed to let the wood dry in significantly less time, may be ok for some wood, but too quick for others. Like Odie said, time is your friend when it comes to seasoning roughed bowls.

 

[Ric Williams]

Latest changes: 23 smallish bowls are seasoned enough to finish turn after 2 months. My criteria is 1% or less change in weight since last weigh-in. Mostly cherry, with 4 mulberry and one elm, all sealed with PVA, so it does seem that PVA sealed bowls *are* drying faster. Lost one more cherry to a crack, though this one was wax sealed. All 3 cherry cracked right next to the tenon, which leads me to think that I left the bottoms too thick on the earlier rough turned bowls. Lack of experience on my part.
There are a bunch of larger bowls that are nearly dry, mostly sealed with PVA, that are still intact, so the results are looking good so far. If the loses are less than 10%, I'll be happy.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

All 3 cherry cracked right next to the tenon, which leads me to think that I left the bottoms too thick on the earlier rough turned bowls. Lack of experience on my part.

I have had similar experience with cherry in both side grain bowls and end grain hollow forms where the ones that cracked were all thicker on the bottom near the tenon, so that just proves the necessity for uniform thickness.

 

[Glenn Lefley]

Latest changes: 23 smallish bowls are seasoned enough to finish turn after 2 months. My criteria is 1% or less change in weight since last weigh-in. Mostly cherry, with 4 mulberry and one elm, all sealed with PVA, so it does seem that PVA sealed bowls *are* drying faster. Lost one more cherry to a crack, though this one was wax sealed. All 3 cherry cracked right next to the tenon, which leads me to think that I left the bottoms too thick on the earlier rough turned bowls. Lack of experience on my part.
There are a bunch of larger bowls that are nearly dry, mostly sealed with PVA, that are still intact, so the results are looking good so far. If the loses are less than 10%, I'll be happy.

Another "progress" report. Out of 75 roughed bowls so far, 2 mulberry and 2 cherry have cracked. All were under 6" and all were sealed with PVA. All the cherry and mulberry bowls sealed with wax based sealer are intact so far and all the Siberian elm sealed with either PVA or wax emulsion are intact, but they're the most recent, so it may be too early to tell. That's not even close to a conclusive sampling, but my impression so far is that the PVA, which is claimed to let the wood dry in significantly less time, may be ok for some wood, but too quick for others. Like Odie said, time is your friend when it comes to seasoning roughed bowls.

I’ve found wax emulsion best results, glue poor results.

 

[robo hippy]

The 10% thickness rule applies to the walls and maybe a bit to the transition area of the bowl. You can leave the bottom thinner. I would make sure to seal, and maybe double seal the tenon. It is a change in thickness area that will create drying stress.

robo hippy

 

[Ric Williams]

I’ve found wax emulsion best results, glue poor results.

I tend to agree that the wax emulsion produced the best results so far, though I wouldn't say the PVA sealer gave poor results. I'll use up the PVA I've got on the regular wood and use the wax on the best pieces. When the PVA is gone, I'll stick with Anchorseal or an equivalent. I still have a bunch of medium to large bowls seasoning, so I'll see what the results are with those. I expect it'll be more of the same.
Then someone will write an article or make a YouTube video saying that it's best to bury the bowls over the septic field during a full moon, and my wife will yell at me for digging holes in the yard in the dark.

 

[Glenn Lefley]

I tend to agree that the wax emulsion produced the best results so far, though I wouldn't say the PVA sealer gave poor results. I'll use up the PVA I've got on the regular wood and use the wax on the best pieces. When the PVA is gone, I'll stick with Anchorseal or an equivalent. I still have a bunch of medium to large bowls seasoning, so I'll see what the results are with those. I expect it'll be more of the same.
Then someone will write an article or make a YouTube video saying that it's best to bury the bowls over the septic field during a full moon, and my wife will yell at me for digging holes in the yard in the dark.

That’s why I dig holes over the neighbours septic field! The only thing is they only go on holidays twice a year. So bowls get well seasoned! Never dig in your own yard!