Did sculpture become part of AAW....?

[Doug Rasmussen]

As the title says.....

I recall reading something about this in the AAW mag.

 

[hockenbery]

Short answer: no

About the AAW
The American Association of Woodturners (AAW) is a Minnesota nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization, headquartered in Saint Paul, Minnesota, dedicated to advancing the art and craft of woodturning worldwide by providing opportunities for education, information, and organization to those interested in turning wood. Established in 1986, AAW currently has more than 15,000 members and a network of over 350 local chapters globally representing professionals, amateurs, gallery owners, collectors, and wood/tool suppliers. AAW’s journal, American Woodturner is the foremost publication on the art and craft of woodturning in the world.

Mission
The mission of the American Association of Woodturners is to provide education, information, and organization to those interested in turning wood.

Vision
The American Association of Woodturners will strive to become a world leader in establishing lathe-turned work as a major element in the craft world, while at the same time spearheading youth development and engendering amateur interest and activities.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Hock'

your message was cut off mid-sentence under the Vision section.

If the answer is no why is so much wood carving sculpture featured in the mag?

 

[hockenbery]

Longer answer:

Many of the AAW members make sculptures with no lathe involved, turn sculptures, and sculpt turnings.
And there is carving too.

Instant gallery: Sculptures that have never been on the lathe are occasionally shown in the AAW instany gallery.
The volunteers who run the gallery are not instructed to reject any work. So once in a while a no turned piece gets into the show. The AAW board has the right to ask the piece to be removed but rarely exercises it. One year some huge piece got in and the compromise was to move it to a far corner so no one had to walk by it unless the wished to.

AAW journal: when the body of work of an artist is shown often photos of sculptures that have never seen a lathe are included.

Art Shows & auctions: these usually include an entrance requirement that the work have turning. However the jurors of the shows are often invited to put artwork in the show even if they are not turners so occasionally an unexpected medium will be seen in an AAW show.

AAW members such as Linquist, Scarpino, Burchard, O’Neil, Weidman.... use the lathe to turn the surfaces of some or all of the elements on their Marvelous sculptures.
AAW members such as Jamieson and Lee use the lathe to gpcreate their sculptures blanks by hollowing the wood so it can dry without cracking and lathe work may not appear on the sculpture surface.

So the AAW is about turning but some turners will continue to make sculptures with out without the lathe.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Thanks, I guess I was confused after reading in the journal in the last year or so about wood sculptures being included in one particular symposium or show.

So, would the piece shown here be considered a turning? It's multi-axis made by holding it between centers and rotating (CNC, with several thousand centers offset electronically).

Along the same lines, what about CNC turned pieces in general? I suppose at some point a decision will have to made about turnings that are not handmade.

How about turners like Mark Lindquist, he uses automation? Then you have a wood artist like Wendell Castle (not especially noted as a turner) whose work is well thought of even though recent work was done on a 6 axis CNC robotic arm. BTW, he just passed away.

I'm curious to hear opinions from members here.

 

[Mark Wollschlager]

It ( sculpture ) has always been part of the AAW.
If you look at old journals comments have always been made about any 'non lathe turned' objects.
The topic comes up like clockwork, in many variations.
I would prefer that a lathe be used in more than a small portion of the work.
Am I going to demand that the maker prove to me which parts were or were not turned on a lathe? Nope.
No more than I am going to require that only certain tools, finishes, methods of texturing, or types of wood be used on a piece.
Personally I enjoy a variety, even when I may have questions about the piece. An excellent conversation starter with the maker.
Personally, I would prefer that featured works be mostly wood.

 

[hockenbery]

But how much?
I have often thought the amount of time on the lathe being 50% or more was a reasonable metric

would prefer that a lathe be used in more than a small portion of the work.

But It doesn’t work since it eliminates the majority of segmented work, pens, anything carved, anything sandblasted, maybe some bowls.
In actual process most things spend less than half their time on the lathe.

A 10” Natural Edge bowl -
5 minutes chain saw work
10 minutes laying out the center and cutting the ends on the bandsaw,
20-30 minutes turning,
10 minutes removing the bark or 5 minutes applying CA to keep the bark
5 minutes wash off and set aside to dry
10 minutes sanding
20 minutes for 4 coats Waterlox
takes a little over an 75-90minutes to make a 10” NE bowl but only 30-40% of the time is on the lathe. And that’s for one of the quintessential lathe turned objects

 

[john lucas]

I would say it depends. I love to see any good work, carved, CNC or otherwise. Notice I said good. Now if it's a competition that's a different ball game. Very careful wording should be put out when entering the show. CNC opens up a whole new ball game. If two pieces are made, one by hand and one by machine, very close or exactly the same, how would that be judged. A complicated question.
the question about embellishment or carving off the lathe has been around forever. Some like it, some hate it. Years ago a gentleman tried to start a separate organization that would only allow turning. No carving or embellishment of any kind. I told him how I started carving on bowls. I got a catch while reverse turning a bowl and took a chunk out of the foot. So I carved away the catch and several other areas which left me with 4 feet. I asked if that would be included and he said that would be fine. I said OK suppose I want to carve handles on my bowls. Well it went down hill from there. Basically there are a tremendous amount of differences in all of the people who are in our wonderful hobby. Why restrict any of them. It very enjoyable I think to see how far some people go. Sure some things we enjoy and some we don't. That's art. My latest piece is a good example of time spend off the lathe. I turned the shape, then hollowed the shape which took about 45 minutes or less. Then I spent about 5 or 6 hours doing all the carving. The handle was totally carved. You may or may not like it. I see it simply as an evolution of what i do mostly which is hand mirrors.
No like I said if it comes down to entering shows, or competitions then the rules need to be very clear as to what can and can't be done. How much off lathe work is allowable, can you use 3D printers or CNC, etc. It needs to be fair if money or awards of any kind are offered.

 

[Mark Wollschlager]

But It doesn’t work since it eliminates the majority of segmented work, pens, anything carved, anything sandblasted, maybe some bowls.
In actual process most things spend less than half their time on the lathe.

I fully understand that percentage of time wise, the lathe time may be eclipsed by hand sanding and finishing.
Perhaps I should have said that a lathe was used as a tool in the process for more than a small amount of the actual finished project.
For most carvers of turned objects, the lathe is used to 'prep the canvas', including sandblasting.
Pens and segmented work certainly are turned.
If all that was done was putting a tenon on a log so that it could be held by carving vice chuck jaws and carved off of the lathe. Not so much.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I remember many years ago when I was a beginner, one of the long time members of my club complained that Texas Turn-or-Two (now dba SWAT) had lost its sense of direction because they allowed demonstrations on various kinds of embellishments like carving and coloring of bowls and hollowforms. He went on to express his feelings that woodturnings should basically be plain and unadorned. That was over a dozen years ago and I've noticed that since then he has expanded his his perspective to go well beyond plain old round and brown.

Creativity is one of those things that can't simultaneously be constrained and expected to thrive. The genie is out of the bottle. I've occasionally thought about where woodturning was a couple centuries ago, where it was a half century ago, where it is today, and what it might become in the distant future. My crystal ball seems to be out of order, but extrapolating from where we've been and where we are now, if there are still any trees, I suspect things will be very different.

 

[Curt Fuller]

I have at times wondered what constitutes a "woodturning". We see a lot of beautiful art that makes us scratch our head and wonder how that came from a lathe. But I think that is exactly why the AAW is doing a service to its members by displaying some of these off the wall turned sculptures. It makes you think about how they held that on the lathe, how they turned that and then deconstructed it to create something entirely different, what will happen if you change the axis, all the possibilities that can come from trying something outside the comfort zone. Next thing you know, you're trying something different yourself and imagining how you could incorporate that into what you already know how to do. Sometimes it can be very frustrating for me to see something that is beautiful and artistic but seemingly impossible to create on a lathe. I think it's my own inability to come up with such a cool idea myself that is at the bottom of my frustration though.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Hard to make a living in the art world just m making bowls... To make ends meet you have to carve and embellish... I'm lucky that I have a market for traditional turnings....

 

[Dean]

Interesting thread. Carve away, sand blast, burn,stain,dye etc to your hearts content. I personally like the lathe to turn the canvas and go from there. I also like the very plain classical salad bowl that show cases the beauty of the wood. I do not like the cnc machine being claimed as “handmade” product. I think this area is great but not hand made I feel it’s more of an engineering product than a product of art or craftsmanship. I understand the stance that only a small percentage of a form being turned may not be considered a turned product in some venues but I think what I like about turning is the craftsmanship skills and the mental creativity. Turning ,flat work, carving all includes the handmade element and at the end of the day that is what I appreciate. That being said I do think in a turning base club.I feel a clothes wardrobe where only two knobs were turned doesn’t really belong a turning symposium. Even if it’s the finest wardrobe I have ever seen.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

I am just a newbie at turning. It is a one of numerous methods of shaping materials whether those materials are wood, stone plastic, metal or whatever. Just as in travel, some view the destination as the goal, some feel the journey is the goal, and some feel the means of travel is the goal. For some turning is the goal, others, turning is simply a primary way to get to the goal, and for some turning is only a small part of the journey. I look at some of the incredible works pictured in the magazine and wonder to myself what percentage of the time spent was turning and how much was the carving, shaping, etc. with some it appears that the actual turning may have only been a very small percentage of the time. At my stage in turning, such things are like the unattainable dream.

For some folks, simply figuring it out can be part of the goal. I can mount between centers and on a chuck or face plate. But some objects go beyond that and I am still trying to figure the mechanics of how to mount a piece of wood to turn a particular simple two sided object that I have in mind. I could ask and probably get multiple answers with various ways to accomplish what I have in mind. But part of my journey/goal is figuring such things out for myself.

 

[hockenbery]

Its a big tent lots of room for everyone who considers their work turning.

How we consider technology is a question?
3D printers? CNC? CAD? Video for hollow forms?

I use technology to create my sandblast resist which I apply to what I consider a very nice turning.
The resist is designed on a machine and cut by a machine.
Some will object. Lot of folks are interested in doing work with the technique.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

turning on a lathe, itself, is technology beyond hacking out a bowl with a bowl adz and scorp. At what point do you draw the line on tech? Before or after a spring pole lathe?

 

[Curt Fuller]

Whenever I type the word "woodturning" my spellcheck tells me that's not really a word. When we combine the two words we're implying that we're turning wood, which is just a way of sculpting wood. If there is something that bothers me about some of the amazing sculpture work it isn't that it's done off the lathe, but that it no longer resembles wood. Painting wood, gilding, completely covering up the beauty of the wood is where it crosses over the line into something other than woodturning for me. Some of the "covered up" wood sculptures, beautiful as they may be, are no longer wood or turning once you can't see any semblance of the wood.

 

[john lucas]

Curtis. That reminds me my friend Simon Levi was doing an outdoor art show and had a hollow vessel sitting on a pedestal. His pieces usually have a lot of wood showing even though he ads really beautiful little details since his profession was a graphic artist. Anyway he saw these 2 ladies get out of their car and head right straight toward his booth and that piece. They got to the piece and looked it over for just and second and then said "oh it's wood" and walked off. He said he didn't know what they thought it was but obviously weren't interested in wood. So maybe we should cover it up and make it look like Ceramic.

 

[John King]

In my opinion, CNC is not woodturning. It's a machining process. Anyone with enough money can buy a CNC machine and program it to machine a wood sculpture that appears to be a woodturning. But a true woodturning is done by a craftsman/artist with hand held/controlled tools on a lathe.

If an organization wants to allow CNC "manufactured" items in the show-and-tell, instant gallery or similar, then create a separate category for such items. Don't judge the creativity and skill of a true woodturner alongside a CNC created piece. - John

 

[hockenbery]

Excellent woodturning requires originality of design and skill to execute it.

With technologies like CNC and 3D printing
You have the creativity element of design but no skill to execute the design.

When a mold is made of a great woodturning, the design can then be reproduced by casting in metal or glass. This similar to replicating the design with 3D printing or a CNC.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Excellent woodturning requires originality of design and skill to execute it.

With technologies like CNC and 3D printing
You have the creativity element of design but no skill to execute the design.

..................................................................................................

I disagree about the "no skill to execute" part. That's a big misunderstanding about CNC's. It actually takes a great deal of skill (experience) to do complicated contours, etc in a multi-axis CNC machine (not near so much skill required for a 3D printer). When you start CNC'ing non-homogeneous material, like wood with grain, it gets more complicated (although, with the rigidity of the machine you can turn against the grain when necessary without so much worry about catches).

Community colleges teach CAD/CAM for CNC machining. The CAD portion would usually be the design part. The CAM portion would be telling the machine in what sequence and how to do the cutting. Typically, a certificate of proficiency from a CC would take a year or more of full time classes. With the certificate a graduate can go into the real world and start learning. I sold my business when I retired a few years ago, I expect in today's market to hire an experienced CAD/CAM person I'd be looking at $100K+/year.

Likely, most here didn't spend that much time learning the basics of turning.

 

[hockenbery]

@Doug Rasmussen it was my understanding that the skill in using a CNC was in setting up the control program.
Didn’t realize you had to do so much while it was cutting.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

@Doug Rasmussen it was my understanding that the skill in using a CNC was in setting up the control program.
Didn’t realize you had to do so much while it was cutting.

Let me clarify a bit....

The CNC programmer determines how he wants the part to be cut, tools, cutting speeds, technique, etc, etc in the CAD/CAM software. This is where experience comes in. The CAM software creates the part program with all the information needed to cut the part. The CNC machine's control program reads the part program and controls the machine accordingly.

In theory, after hitting the start button the machine operator should not have to do anything while the part is being cut. Wood being wood, it's not a good idea to let the machine go by itself. With a thin walled area, fine detailing, or whatever you need to have your hand on the feedrate override knob to slow down or speed up the cutting rate in difficult areas to prevent chatter or even the part blowing up.

 

[Odie]

Its a big tent lots of room for everyone who considers their work turning.

This is the bottom line, though...... Everything should have some element of lathe work involved, and as long as that prerequisite is maintained.....all are welcome.

As I tried to explain in another thread, embellishment is a great creative outlet, and some very artistic things are created this way......but, nothing that isn't directly accomplished on the lathe, or can't be done without the lathe, is not, and never was a "lathe skill".

I have admiration for well executed embellishment......but, this is not my priority in my own turnings. It's a personal thing for me. What I like are pleasing curves, shapes, and details created while the wood is spinning on the lathe. This is a very simple appreciation, but most all turners will agree that these simple things in turning.....are not so simple to do with excellence, and accomplish a creative artistic outcome. Most here will know that sanding will destroy the possibility of crisp, well executed details. The ONLY thing that will allow for that to happen, minimizing the sanding, is well executed tool selection, sharpening techniques, and tool handling......there is NOTHING that will substitute for this......NOTHING.

There is the excellence in what a turner can do on a lathe......that's one thing. Another is something that is completely out of his hands, and that is what Mother Nature can provide. A good eye can enhance what Mother Nature does, by creative selection of materials, and orientation......but, Mother Nature is pretty much on her own in doing what she does!

Most embellishment diminishes what Mother Nature does......and, many times completely hides what she does.

-----odie-----

 

[RichColvin]

Whenever I type the word "woodturning" my spellcheck tells me that's not really a word. When we combine the two words we're implying that we're turning wood, which is just a way of sculpting wood. If there is something that bothers me about some of the amazing sculpture work it isn't that it's done off the lathe, but that it no longer resembles wood. Painting wood, gilding, completely covering up the beauty of the wood is where it crosses over the line into something other than woodturning for me. Some of the "covered up" wood sculptures, beautiful as they may be, are no longer wood or turning once you can't see any semblance of the wood.

I’ve always thought it funny that woodturning is one word, & wood carving is two.

Also, when I describe my art, I say I am a sculptor. The lathe is just one of my tools.

Rich

 

[RichColvin]

In my opinion, CNC is not woodturning. It's a machining process. Anyone with enough money can buy a CNC machine and program it to machine a wood sculpture that appears to be a woodturning. But a true woodturning is done by a craftsman/artist with hand held/controlled tools on a lathe.

If an organization wants to allow CNC "manufactured" items in the show-and-tell, instant gallery or similar, then create a separate category for such items. Don't judge the creativity and skill of a true woodturner alongside a CNC created piece. - John

I would bet that Bill Ooms would disagree. He probably spends more time setting up the CNC cutting than actually making the piece.

I am of the opinion that CNC work is not art if it is only used for repetitive work.

Rich

 

[Dean]

Excellent woodturning requires originality of design and skill to execute it.

With technologies like CNC and 3D printing
You have the creativity element of design but no skill to execute the design.

When a mold is made of a great woodturning, the design can then be reproduced by casting in metal or glass. This similar to replicating the design with 3D printing or a CNC.

Well said!

 

[Dean]

This is the bottom line, though...... Everything should have some element of lathe work involved, and as long as that prerequisite is maintained.....all are welcome.

As I tried to explain in another thread, embellishment is a great creative outlet, and some very artistic things are created this way......but, nothing that isn't directly accomplished on the lathe, or can't be done without the lathe, is not, and never was a "lathe skill".

I have admiration for well executed embellishment......but, this is not my priority in my own turnings. It's a personal thing for me. What I like are pleasing curves, shapes, and details created while the wood is spinning on the lathe. This is a very simple appreciation, but most all turners will agree that these simple things in turning.....are not so simple to do with excellence, and accomplish a creative artistic outcome. Most here will know that sanding will destroy the possibility of crisp, well executed details. The ONLY thing that will allow for that to happen, minimizing the sanding, is well executed tool selection, sharpening techniques, and tool handling......there is NOTHING that will substitute for this......NOTHING.

There is the excellence in what a turner can do on a lathe......that's one thing. Another is something that is completely out of his hands, and that is what Mother Nature can provide. A good eye can enhance what Mother Nature does, by creative selection of materials, and orientation......but, Mother Nature is pretty much on her own in doing what she does!

Most embellishment diminishes what Mother Nature does......and, many times completely hides what she does.

-----odie-----

I agree Odie, The wood should drive the design and we should make a consorted effort to enhance or to show off the beauty of each piece of mother natures undeniable often hidden beauty. But .......I think she has off days like us and some wood is pretty bland, I would rather that piece be embellished somewhat tastefully to bring out the beauty of an otherwise "bland" piece of wood and enjoyed by someone than tossed off to the side to rot. That being said, you could burn it for a little heat in the winter......

I personally do not do to much embellishing because I love mother natures canvas, I appreciate it and I love looking for the unique treasure. Like yourself I think the curves and lines bring out the complexities of the wood and most of the time no more needed. Overdone is unattractive

Then again different strokes for different folks........

 

[Mark Lindquist]

For anyone interested, please see the attached essay by Mark Lindquist: "Reinventing Sculpture" presented at the Minneapolis Art Institute, at the Yale / Woodturning Center Exhibition:
Wood Turning in North America Since 1930

(Please note that the Speech is copyrighted and may not be copied without written permission from Lindquist Studios.)

Sculpture in the world of woodturning has always been controversial, ever since the beginning with the formation of AAW. But it has always been there, and probably always will be.
Turning itself is a form of sculpture in the sense that it is a subtractive process employed to reveal a hidden inner form. Always, the distinctions between artists and craftsmen/women have been in muddy waters, amongnst blurred lines between arts and crafts. This is a tremendously complex subject which is often discussed from a perspective of hegemony of camps.

Mark

PDF Attachment Included
!Edit for spelling

 

[Charlie Knighton]

....."abandon our fates to the whim of destiny"

@ any future time POINT any form may attain THE APEX

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

In my opinion, CNC is not woodturning. It's a machining process. Anyone with enough money can buy a CNC machine and program it to machine a wood sculpture that appears to be a woodturning. But a true woodturning is done by a craftsman/artist with hand held/controlled tools on a lathe.

If an organization wants to allow CNC "manufactured" items in the show-and-tell, instant gallery or similar, then create a separate category for such items. Don't judge the creativity and skill of a true woodturner alongside a CNC created piece. - John

I agree that anybody can buy a CNC, but have you ever tried to custom program one?

 

[John Spitters]

Curtis. That reminds me my friend Simon Levi was doing an outdoor art show and had a hollow vessel sitting on a pedestal. His pieces usually have a lot of wood showing even though he ads really beautiful little details since his profession was a graphic artist. Anyway he saw these 2 ladies get out of their car and head right straight toward his booth and that piece. They got to the piece and looked it over for just and second and then said "oh it's wood" and walked off. He said he didn't know what they thought it was but obviously weren't interested in wood. So maybe we should cover it up and make it look like Ceramic.

I turn a fair number of hollow forms that I sell through a gallery, all turned from nicely figured wood.
A hollow form left natural in colour, but of highly figured wood takes forever to sell as in years, but those same or identical hollow forms coloured with dyes (and often with a lesser degree of figure) sell very quickly.

 

[Jason Waguespack]

I wrote this reply to on the forum about the AAW magazine back in Feb 2017.

I'm new to turning (been a AAW member 2 years + ) the Magazine is way over my head --- Very little info for new turners --- I glance at em & look at pics then store em on the shelf and they collect dust till later on when I advance to the magazine level of turning. BUT the on line Woodturning Fundamentals issues are very helpful & many of the things on the AAW web site. Glad to be a member.

Like someone said and agree ----> what happen to round and brown. Can we go back to just hand held / controlled chisel in hand woodturning? NO - - - > because it is old stuff and the interest is not there as art and people want more / different new art and not the same old stuff. Like the AAW magazine ---> getting away from the basics of what made woodturning what it is today and into -----> what sells and has people interest weather it's sculpture or art put it in the magazine. I to wonder how some of this is mounted and turned on a lathe. Hollow form jigs turning and laser use turning is getting in the same argument as CNC ----> not using tool in hand.

 

[john lucas]

I definitely see a place for CNC, 3D etc. To me it's kind of like Ornamental turning. I find it interesting, love to see it, Can't afford the equipment or the time to learn to use it, but still like it. So the question becomes, if you have a piece created by CNC, 3D, ornamental turning and hand carved, all pretty much identical, how do you tell what was done and should there be a line in the sand as far competition. I could easily enjoy looking at each piece and appreciating them but obviously the hand carved piece took much more skill.

 

[Jerry Maske]

Glass casting resembles NOTHING! I used to make my living casting glass and can tell you it's an art form that includes tremendous attention to detail and a lot of mirrors in a smoke filled room. It never occurred to me to cast a turned object in glass, but now that you've mentioned it, I'm thinking it through. I'd never represent a glass cast reproduction as "Lathe Turned," but it would have a beauty all it's own. Probably would need it's own category, but most likely would fit at Corning rather than an AAW event.

Jerry

 

[john lucas]

Did Binh Pho have some pieces cast. I seem to remember reading about it but don't think I ever saw any. I do know of people who have had bronze castings of turnings.

 

[Mark Lindquist]

Sure he did - he made hundreds of cast glass pieces from quite a long time ago. Check these out from 2010: https://contempglass.org/artists/entry/binh-pho-september
Do a google search for Bin Pho Glass and you'll find a lot of it.

There have been many turners who have had their works cast in glass - it's been going on a long time.

Many sculptors working in cast glass have had originals made in wood serving as models for moulds.

Mark

 

[john lucas]

Thanks Mark. That was cool.

 

[hockenbery]

Saw a couple of Binh’s glass pieces they would take your breath away.
Turners are using glass in their work like Curt Theobald.

Turners are casting pieces in bronze. Michael Peterson’s was the first I knew of in the 90s.
Trent Bosch is casting his hollowmform in bronze and the detail of the wood is evident in the surface. He also turns some wax and casts that too.
Ron Gerton was casting tumbleweeds in bronze to make one of a kind pedestals for his hollow forms.

All of these folks -exceptional turners, artists, and people.
Miss Binh a lot. We talked often on the phone especially before the Symposium or when he was coming to Palm beach.

 

[RichColvin]

I agree that anybody can buy a CNC, but have you ever tried to custom program one?

I would add one thing to Emiliano’s comment : Check out Bill Ooms’ work (http://www.billooms.com/GalleryOrnamental.html) and you judge it as art or not. I vote that it is.

Rich