Delta 1460 countershaft question

[Michael Lane]

I have an old style Delta 45-460, which is the older version of the 1460. I love this thing, but the slowest speed I can get is about 950 rpm's. The previous owner put a new motor (1725 rpm) on it with a two step pulley on the motor pulley. The lathe pulley, of course, is a four step.

I want to recreate the counter shaft setup in the manual. I have looked on ebay for the countershaft, as well as on the various sites, and I have had no luck finding them. I figure I can buy the countershaft unit from Grizzly for around $40.00. I can buy pulleys from any number of places, I would probably go to Grainger, but I am not sure what sizes to get.

So here are the questions for the assembled wizards of AAW:

1) Does anyone know of a source for a used countershaft of this type, as this would save me the hassle.

2) If not, would someone be willing to give me some detail as to what to buy. I am plenty mechanically inclined to be able to assemble it, but I am not sure what specific components to purchase.

3) I have the original part numbers, where can I plug them in and get a current equivalent?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

 

[MichaelMouse]

If you're mechanically inclined, you should know how to compute final rpm from pulley ratio and nominal motor speed. Find a proper pair of ball-bearing blocks and shaft and fit what 4-step pulley you can find which most approximates what's above. Make your computations, and purchase the two-step for the other end of the shaft that gets you around 300 or slightly below. I find I never go over 1000, so you might just get a single for the shaft.

You've been here, I take it, because you know that this lathe was normally countered. http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=9274

Changing rpm must have been fun. Not sure if it would not be better to do as one a friend of mine and I cobbled up with the motor and countershaft on the same hinged board below, using the motor's weight to tension.

 

[Michael Lane]

Thanks, Michael.

Yes, I can do all the calculations and I get the basic "how to", but I like to state the entire case when it's not something I do on a regular basis. This is because I recognize that there is a great deal of knowledgeable folks here that can clue me in to things I might not be aware of. In looking at the OWWM link you provided, I am also concerned about how they changed speeds. I figure there must be something I am missing. I also want to go with the 16 speed configuration which will necessitate 3 more four step pulleys. But as look at the pictures it appears to me that there are different sized pulleys. I can figure this out from an old rpm chart, but I thought someone might be able to clue me in on the necessary sizing and save me the pencil and paper time.

Thanks a bunch for responding. I am new to the forum and notice you are a very giving poster. I appreciate that.🙂

 

[Michael Lane]

tension release to change speeds

Let's talk ideas about tensioning system ideas. Those old lathes had to have some system for releasing the tension to change speeds. The way this gent did it was what you described, a hinged platform with one spring attached back to the frame which used the weight of the motor to provide the tension. The problems are two fold for me. First, the motor is always off balance because of the belt being on one end. This must eventually have an effect on the bearings, plus it creates unnecessary vibration. Second, in order to get the sixteen speeds I want, I need to mount the motor to the top of the platform. I wonder if any of you that have been turning a long while could tell me what the method was for changing speeds on these 40's and 50's vintage 1460's was? Also, if any of you have ideas that would work well, please share them as well.

I have ideas how to do this, but I am very interested in other ideas.

All the best,

Mick

 

[Joe Greiner]

My first real lathe (vs. a drill press laid on its back) was a 1929 Delta. I made a bench for it, with the motor on a hinged platform. I share your disdain for gravity-only tensioning, because of expected vibration.

I supported the free end of the platform with 2 all-thread rods and 4 large custom-made heavy wing nuts on each rod, for speed of adjustment - 2 at the bench, and 2 at the platform, with cylindrical interfaces to accommodate angular variations. To change speeds, I disengaged the wing nuts enough to allow moving the belt, then tightened in the new configuration. My motor had 2 pulleys, and it could move along its axis to mate with the 4-step pulley on the lathe. The motor was attached with more large wing nuts, also for speed of adjustment.

The wing nuts are my own manufacture, consisting of lead castings with embedded T-nuts. By making them heavy, their mass moment of inertia lets them spin faster, once started.

I used a spreadsheet to compute lathe speeds, and rounded the results. The pitch diameter of small V-belts is about 1/4" less than the rim diameter of the pulley, according to Machinery's Handbook, so the computation is reasonably accurate.

The lathe is now retired and in storage. I don't have any pictures of the setup, but you can probably grasp the idea from my description.

You already have the pulley sizes on your lathe, and adding a countershaft will complicate the spreadsheet, but not excessively. With 16 speeds, you probably won't get a smooth variation in selections, but the maximum and minimum are the targets anyway. To get a smooth variation, you might need some really weird pulley diameters. Some intermediate combinations will probably never get used. Even so, the spreadsheet can be used to print a speed chart, as sometimes seen on metal lathes. Set the belt and pulley combinations that you like.

 

[Michael Lane]

Great post, Joe!

Thanks a bunch!! That is exactly what I was looking for. I have a couple of questions/observations.

First, thanks for the bit about the nominal size of the belt. This is what I am talking about when I reference not paying attention to certain things due to not doing this often. I am a journeyman carpenter by training and trade, but do to becoming a union activist years ago, I haven't worked full time at my trade for quite a while. So I hadn't thought of this. I just measured the outside diameter of my pulleys. It sounds like a copy of The Machinists Handbook is something I should have. I have already built the spreadsheet.

Second, in you description of the tensioning device you said;

<i>I supported the free end of the platform with 2 all-thread rods and 4 large custom-made heavy wing nuts on each rod, for speed of adjustment - 2 at the bench, and 2 at the platform, with cylindrical interfaces to accommodate angular variations.</i>

If I am understanding this correctly, you would turn two knobs on each rod to loosen quickly. This was the reason for a knob at each end of each rod? Wouldn't just one knob on each rod at each end suffice, just be a bit slower? Did you find the double knobs to be that great an advantage. The other thing I am having a bit of a time visualizing is the "cylindrical interface". What would that be?

Thanks for such an informative post, Joe.

All the best,

Mick

 

[Joe Greiner]

The double wing nuts, or knobs, provide restraint in both tension and compression on each rod. Otherwise, it could be slightly loose, one way or the other. At least, that's how I reasoned it.

The components seem to have gone AWOL, but IIRC I used oversize holes in the bench rail and the motor platform, with half cylinders of pvc pipe, also with oversize holes (tangential slots, I think). The cut surface of the pipes rested on the platform. The bench rails were made from "landscape timbers." They're core remnants from plywood manufacture (aka "peeler cores"), with two flat faces milled, and two cylindrical surfaces from the peeling; those pipe segments were less than 180 degrees, but they still had tangential slots.

I'm not a real machinist BTW. But I have stayed at Holiday Inn Express.😀

Joe