delicate finials, spindle gouges, and tool steels

[Jesse Tutterrow]

I have been doing woodturning for a little over three years and have tried a variety of different types of projects. Lately I have been doing a lot of delicate finials (think Cindy Drozda). I was talking with another woodturner and mentioned that everytime I tried to cut a deep groove (terminology??) between two beads the top of the flute would contact the opposing element causing problems. I was informed that instead of using a 3/8 inch (Sorby) spindle gouge I needed to use a 3/8 detail spindle gouge. Is this true? Do I really need yet another 3/8 inch gouge? Please don't change the discussion to be skews!

Assuming that I do need a spindle detail gouge I have narrowed my search to either the Thompson or the D-Way. The dividing factor seems to be M42 vs. C-10 and if it cyro treated. Since I am currently using white grinding stones I doubt it makes much difference. I do plan on upgrading to CBN but that is another discussion. Is there really a practical, noticable difference between the tools or what steels they are made of?

 

[robo hippy]

Getting deep down into tiny spaces requires a tool with a 25 to 30 degree bevel angle, more of a swept back type profile, and a shallow flute. I think Cindy Drozda and Stuart Batty both have a 'Vortex' tool, which is like that. I have one I use that is made from one of Doug's Fluteless gouges (I do have a video up on that). It is a copy of a tool that Allen Batty was using, and I think that is what Stuart and Cindy based their tools on. Some people do like the Sorby Spindle Master tools, but I am not one of them, just too flimsy...

As for tool metals, I can not tell any difference between edge holding ability and how sharp can you get them between the Thompson and D Way. I own a number of tools from both of them.

robo hippy

 

[Richard Coers]

As far as I know, the only difference between a spindle gouge and a detail gouge is the thickness of material under the flute. Of course there are spindle gouges that are milled from bar stock, and those forged from flat stock. As Robo said, just change the bevel. You sure we aren't allowed to bring up a skew?

 

[Bill Blasic]

There is a difference between M42 and 10V, there is a lot more vanadium in the 10V. There is no doubt for me that the 10V stays sharper longer than M42. Now M42 stays sharper a lot longer than ordinary hi speed steel. You can put a longer nose on a detail gouge than a spindle but I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference.

 

[Clifton C]

Are you really asking this bunch if you need to buy another tool???
As Robo states, you need a 25 to 30° bevel angle. I find I get a better tip shape for fine work from a detail gouge and a broader tip shape from a spindle gouge. As Mr Hockenbery states,

Beginners often lack the skill to control a 30 degree bevel 100% of the time.
Start with a 40 or 45 degree bevel which is easier to control. After getting comfortable with the 40- 45 you can sharpen it at 35-30 and then later on to 30-25.

... Not saying you are a beginner...but I found this to be true.
I'm at 35° so far and can control it 93% of the time. Here are a few tip shapes I'm working with. Disregard my favorite 1/4 inch round skew, easy to make and excruciatingly fun to use...
Bottom two, 3/8th detail, middle, 1/2 inch spindle, next 3/8th detail. Also the cutting bevel is only about a 16th, the rest of the bevel relieved. And a couple of finial tips as I race to get last minute gifts complete...

 

[Tom Gall]

I would prefer the detail gouge. But even with that, on small details the wings of the gouge will probably touch the opposite element of your finial. I use the gouge for most of the shape and usually complete the cut with the 1/2" Spindle Master tool that Reed mentioned. It is flimsy but because it is flat topped it will reach into those crevices without destroying your other elements. Being the procrastinator that I am I'm going to the shop right now....need four more finials & caps before wrapping tomorrow!

 

[Doug Freeman]

As Robo mentioned there is the Vortex tool, and Mark Silay used a similar tool in his wood slicing video. I made one from 1/4” hss m2 rod. Cut it at about 20 deg thru the rod, then put a very small 20 deg bevel on the tip, just like a gouge. Makes for a very thin tip that gets into those areas. Only used after a gouge goes as far as possible.

 

[robo hippy]

Bill, I would argue that point about one being better than the other at edge holding. I can't tell any difference. I have a friend, now pretty much retired, and he turned myrtle wood trays for the Oregon Coastal shops for 25/30 years. Larry could tell the weather for a week by how his myrtle was turning. I asked him if he could tell any difference, and he said no. If there is any real difference, it isn't some thing I can feel. For sure, both hold an edge far longer than standard M2. I pretty much always use a fresh edge for the last pass.

robo hippy

 

[Jesse Tutterrow]

Let me redirect the focus of my question a little. Right now I am using a white 8" wheel on a slow grinder. I hope to purchase CBN towards the end of next year. Does the choice of sharpening method drastically change the choice between M42 and V-10?

 

[Mark Jundanian]

I don't think there is any difference between sharpening M2, M42 and V10 steel. CBN will sharpen all 3 and I believe they will all sharpen on aluminum oxide wheels as well. If there is a difference in how long it takes to sharpen the harder V10 as compared to M2, I think this would be negligible.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I don't think there is any difference between sharpening M2, M42 and V10 steel. CBN will sharpen all 3 and I believe they will all sharpen on aluminum oxide wheels as well. If there is a difference in how long it takes to sharpen the harder V10 as compared to M2, I think this would be negligible.

Mark This is my experience. On CBN my gouges sharpen in just one pass and that was not the case on white wheels on the same grinder. As to sharpening powdered metal on CBN it is now said that it sharpens better than white wheels do. The reason being that the CBN fractures the particles and therefore sharpens better.

 

[john lucas]

I use a 3/8" detail.gouge with a 35 degree grind. It will reach into very tight places. If I really need to get into tight places I use the toe of my 3/8" skew that is ground to 25 degrees.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I think, but maybe @JohnLucas can corroborate, to get the most out of a V10 steel tool you need a CBN wheel. You can get by with white or blue wheels, but you won't get them as sharp. John did a very scientific study for a nice article for the Journal.

 

[Dave Delo]

For cleaning up in very tight places you might consider the diamond/teardrop tool from D-Way. It's a part of their beading tool options. Pretty easy to learn how to use tool. There's video of its use on their site so you can judge if it would be of use to you.

 

[Bill Blasic]

For years I sharpened my 10V with the white wheels without a problem, the trick being keeping the white stone flat. A flat wheel took off minimum stock to sharpen. Now using CBN wheels which always stay flat it is easier to keep the 10V sharp without taking a lot of steel off the tool. I have 80 and 180 CBNs and for the most part use the 180 the most. There was a trend to go higher with the CBN a while ago but I've seen a lot of those who went that route coming back to the 180 area as the edge from 180 stays sharper longer than the higher grits (as in too sharp maybe having the super thin edge wears quicker). I have and have used M42 steel but I know 10V stays sharper longer. M42 is a good steel but not as good as 10V and I stand by that.

 

[Roger Chandler]

I use both a Thompson 1/4” detail gouge and a 3/8” Thompson detail gouge, both ground to35 degrees and with the heel of the bevel taken off just a little. I depends on how thin I’m going with the finial which I use. For some cuts I also use a 1/2” skew ground to about 25 degrees on each side to go to the bottom of the “V” cut to make it really crisp. A lot of times the gouges do the job just fine by themselves.

Like Bill,I also use a 80 and 180 CBN for sharpening. My bevel gets pretty polished with the 180 grit.

 

[robo hippy]

I can't remember sharpening V10 on the old white/blue/pink wheels, though I did have some of the old Glaser tools many years ago. As for which grit wheel to get, if you are getting one, I would go with the 180 grit as it is the most versatile, and will be fine for 90%+ of the woods you turn, and the edge you need. I do have 320, 600, and 1000 grit wheels. Of those, I use the 600 grit the most. The particular edge you need depends on the wood you are cutting and the fineness of the edge required for the cut. You can hone a 180 grit edge to skew chisel sharpness, but it is easier to do it with a 600 grit wheel than a 180 grit wheel. The 1000 grit wheel still leaves a burr that needs to be honed off. I seldom use the 80 grit wheel other than for grinding off the heel on the bevel for my bowl gouges. The burr from a 180 grit wheel is a tiny bit finer than the one from the 80 grit wheel, and is great for heavy duty scraper cuts for bowl roughing, and pretty good for scraper burrs for shear scraping. Best burr for shear scraping, when using a scraper is to hone off the grinder burr, and then burnish a burr.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

I do grind my detail gouge with a main bevel of 2mm or so. I move the tool forward in the V arm to grind what I call a.secondary bevel. Then I vrind the bottom corner off of that bevel. That first bevel being small helps me get I to tighter areas.
Regarding sharpening V10 steels. I have used blue wheels ,white wheels, sandpaper,diamond and CBN. All.work but it does take longer on the softer stones. I also.learned the when stropping the V10 it takes much longer than other steels and the gold bar used by carvers worked mu h faster than the green bars.

 

[Steven Forrest]

Tom Wirsing specifically addressed tool steel/sharpening combos in the June 2018 AW. Woodturners Wonders has a copy of it posted on their site. Worth reading.
https://woodturnerswonders.com/blogs/news/modern-tool-steels-and-grinders-by-tom-wirsing

 

[Mark Jundanian]

I stand corrected. You do need CBN for 10V.

 

[john lucas]

No you don't. I sharpened mine for Thompson tools for many years using a white Aluminum Oxide wheel. The CBN is quicker and I think a far better sharpening system but it's not absolutely essential. I sat through Tom's demo and he really knows his stuff and it all sounds good in print. However I can go out in the shop right now and sharpen on my 120 AO wheel and then do the same on my CBN and the final results will be the same except my CBN is 350 so will make a little finer edge. I used to have a 180 CBN and there was little difference in the final results off either wheel. The big difference is how fast CBN will remove steel, the wheel has no bounce what soever and you never have to true it up.

 

[Joe Kaufman]

If you go to the ThompsonLatheTools.com web site and under sharpening, you will see that Doug uses Norton 3X K grade 46 and 80 Grit wheels to shape and sharpen all his tools. He is interested is speed and I believe he had mentioned in the original version of the video that the 46 grit Norton was faster grinding than the 80 grit CBN wheel.

 

[Jesse Tutterrow]

Thanks everyone! I am very happy with my D-Way beading tools so I decided to purchase their 3/8 inch detail gouge.

 

[robo hippy]

Dave Schweitzer used to use a 60 grit 10 inch wheel on a high speed grinder to profile his tools. I would expect that to be pretty fast. 80 grit CBN is fine for minor shaping of tools, but not serious shaping...

robo hippy