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Dangerous stuff

J

Jim Keenan

Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
148
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1
Location
Woodland, CA
This thread was posted on another site by fellow turner Chris Ramsey and I received his permission and Dennis' permission to post the story on the AAW forum site in order to reach as many turners as possible.

Per Chris Ramsey
The purpose of this post is to help prevent others from having an accident while carving legs on a bowl. I have posted several pictures of natural edge bowls with carved legs and feel a sense of responsibility to warn others of the dangers of using a King Arthur’s Lancelot carving disk. The 4 “disk is made with a small piece of chain saw chain with 22 teeth that circle the disk. The disk is mounted on a 4 ½†grinder and is extremely aggressive and dangerous and runs at 40,000 RPM’s.
Woodturner and friend Dennis Doebler had seen several of my 3 leg bowls and wanted to turn and carve a bowl with legs. I had offered to show Dennis how I carve the legs so he would have a total and complete understanding of how to safely carve the legs. I made absolutely sure that Dennis understood how dangerous the Lancelot tool can be.
All of the carving I do is performed between centers on the lathe. The piece is jam chucked and the tail stock is brought up to secure the piece so that it can not move. The headstock locking pin is engaged and the pressure between centers is very strong to insure that the piece to be carved will not move. TWO HANDS AT ALL TIMES is the only way I ever use the Lancelot.
Dennis decided to carve the legs in his shop with no direction or supervision. Dennis will tell you that this was a huge mistake. The bowl was turned and ready to carve. Dennis removed the bowl from the lathe, set it on the work bench, plugged in the grinder with the Lancelot carving disk and was ready to begin carving. He sat at his stool, picked up the grinder, turned it on and held the grinder with one hand and the bowl with the other. The instant that Dennis touched the grinder to the bowl, the grinder violently jumped out of his right hand striking his left hand then surged upward striking him under the chin then powered around his neck to just below his right ear. He was air lifted by Life Flight to the University of Kentucky Hospital. His little finger, ring finger and middle finger were badly injured requiring 2 hours of initial surgery to close the wounds and an additional 3 hours of surgery yesterday to reconnect the tendons and ligaments. The knuckles and bone were ground into powder by the Lancelot and no useable bone fragments existed. The Lancelot cut into Dennis’ neck more than two inches deep, missed his jugular vein by 2 millimeters, miraculously skipped over his carotid artery, dug back in and continued cutting around his neck to just below the right ear. It took well over 100 stitches to close the injuries to his neck. Dennis said the doctors quit counting when they reached 100 stitches then continued sewing him up for over one additional hour.
Dennis called this evening, assisted in the writing of this and asked me to post this information for him. He is facing several months of healing and physical therapy before he can get back to turning.
Dennis insisted on posting this information in an attempt to help keep others safe from doing the same thing.
If you are going to use the Lancelot, please make sure the piece you intend to carve is mounted solid so that it can not move and use both hands when carving with the grinder and the Lancelot.
 

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My best wishes to Dennis Doebler as he recovers from this very serious injury. I have seen the Lancelot and it looked like it was something more than I could safely handle. Regardless of whether we use this particular carving tool, this is a real-world reminder to pay full attention to safety when working in our shop. When I was young, I thought that I was invincible -- now that I am a few years older and retired, and having experienced a few "awakenings", I am beginning to rethink that idea.
 
captjim said:
The disk is mounted on a 4 1/2” grinder and is extremely aggressive and dangerous and runs at 40,000 RPM’sQUOTE]

I don't think so.... This is either a mistake or a gross exageration. Most mini grinders run at approximately 11,000 RPM. The Lancelot blade is rated for 14,000 RPM max.

This was a near death accident and I do not mean to detract from dangers involved, but let's keep the numbers accurate.

George
Click to expand...
 
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About 7 years ago I had a similar accident. I took my left hand off the grinder while looking at the bowl. I attempted to hold the grinder out of the way, and it slipped out of my right hand, coming down on my left index finger.

Before buying the wheel, hand already made the deceision to only buy grinders with a paddle switch (Dead man Switch). That save my finger and whatever else the wheel would have cut though. I only needed eight stiches.

I didn't use the wheel for a couple years. One of the Australian demonstrators (I think Neal Scoby) was doing a demo with the wheel. But, he was using the wheel on variable speed grinder. It seemed a lot more controllable.

That seemed like enough of a reason to buy a new tool. It made a world of a difference. I typically use the tool about half speed. It is much more controllable. The down side was no paddle switch & the price ran about $180 US.
 
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Thanks for the reminder, and hope Dennis has a speedy recovery.

This is very similar to a "kick back" using a chainsaw. Those who have ever had this happen, know it's a very violent catch, and it's understandable how this could cause so much damage, so quickly, with the Lancelot tool.

ooc
 
Nick I've never seen a variable speed grinder. Do you have a brand? Is it electric? I'd like to reduce the speed on for certain tools and possibly to keep the noise level down.
 
1st my best To Chris and his recovery.

I too have this tool and use it on a 4 1/2 grinder. I have used it on 2 projects and let me say it demands great respect of it's power. I thought for days how I would approach the cuts I wanted to make. Ended up I did mine in the work bench vise.

In thinking about doing the carving between centers, still is a little scary to me. I have my lathe raised to comfort level and this puts the tool to close to my chest,neck and face.

still all the best to everyone.
 
Lucky Man

The first thing that came to my mind was, very lucky man.
The second thing that came to my mind was, stupid.

I hope Dennis heals, and has learned a good lesson.

He was offered direction and help in using this tool, and made a decision to ignore it. This was an accident waiting to happen!!!!!

My 2 cents
Jim

All the best to you Dennis
 
john lucas said:
Nick I've never seen a variable speed grinder. Do you have a brand? Is it electric? I'd like to reduce the speed on for certain tools and possibly to keep the noise level down.
Click to expand...
I'm not Nick either, here's another one made by Fein WSG 12-70E 6" Vs 5/8X11 Angle Grinder.
 
In lieu of the Lancelot there is a 3 toothed carbide cutter made by Arbortech that cuts well and smooth. Not as quick in removing material as the Lancelot but remember that in carving speed is your worst enemy. Another alternative is a reciprocating power carver such as the Automach or the Foredom either rotary or reciprocating. For large carving , 50 lbs or more , I use a Makita variable speed die grinder. I have used it 5 years or more for stone and recently started using it for wood using Kutzall burrs. The only problem I have encountered is burning the wood if not careful. It is definitely a two handed tool and perhaps a bit cumbersome for carving legs on a bowl. ALWAYS use a good sturdy face shield as well as follow safety rules.

Dennis, may you heal quickly .
 
Hi,

this is an awfull accident ... another awfull accident! I hope you will recover well.
I want to give a reply to James E Gaydon...
When I hear what he has done, I find his handling was 'stupid' as well. BUT: this is what I can say NOW, I mean after so many years of woodturning and using machines for wood.
The fact is that if you have not a lot of experience and if you are not particular 'handy' or 'technical minded' .... you simply do not know and simply do not feel in advance what the impact of certain ways of handling can be.
You simply do not feel or know how hard the machines can hit you and neither can you feel or imagine the implications of their strikes. Even when you are carefull, the lack of experience and the fact that you are working alone makes that now and then you make 'faults'. The fact that is what a 'fault' only can be concluded AFTER that is happened. And if you are not lucky ... then it is sometimes too late.
In my first years:
. I was carefull with the bandsaw but I had no idea that the small piece of wood and the blade would twist that much when it left the wood ... and it damaged my finger ... luckily I was not pushing hard and I was concentrated because I tried to be carefull, so it finished with a couple of stitches
. I read that you could have a kickback with the chainsaw and that you never may use the nose of the chainsaw and that you must use the metal pins/teeth at the front of the machine to fix the chainsaw ... but the first time I used it, althought I was carefull, I had a kickback, since that time it never happened again ... but I was lucky that nothing happened.
. The tablesaw can be dangerous as well and kickbacks are very dangerous, that is what I read , so I was and still am scared as death to use it and I am very very carefull. But one day a very small piece (1 cm2) did not go completely to the end and kicked back: result the nail of my thumb and 3 cm of the flesh beneath had to be stitched. I never could imagine that such a small piece of wood could do so much damage. later, I have read that the speed can be 110 km / hour , and I also read that the best thing is to place yourself completely aside of the tablesaw and that is what I do now ... but it takes time to learn all those things and in the meanwhile a lot of things can happen and ... fellow woodturners with a lot of experience seem to have forgotten the day that they were not experienced at all.
. One day I was working with oak from the south of France - the rainy side of France where the soil is pure clay. Now I never work with that wood again because now I now that you it never stops to work: it grow to fast, too much sun and too much water at once but at that time I did nt know that it was possible that preturned wood was able not to stabilize even after 2 years of preturning. I was a bit in a haste but not too much, I should have controlled if the grip was firm once more (but in case the wood was stable this accident would not have occurred and I did not know that it was THAT unstable) ... my speed must have been lower (but as a young woodturner I was told to have the speed as high as possible because at that time woodturners were proud to say that they turned their pieces at 2500 rpm - anyway I was only turning at 1400 rpm, much too fast anyway (this is what I know now) ... and the piece came off of the lathe. I wore a faceshield so this saved my ey ... I could print similar photographs on the forum but the worst thing what happenedis that I felt on the floor and hit the BACK of my head .. which makes that I am permanent handicapped now. I'm still doing woodturning with my handicap although I only can work halftime. There was a photograph in the magazine of a woodturner, a beautifull young lady who died ... it hurted my heart. A while ago there was another announcement of an experienced old Canadese woodturner who died ... and I myself know 2 woodturners , old and experienced as well who died of woodturning.
And how much more ???

Woodturning IS dangerous, it is lovely and my biggest passion but it IS DANGEROUS and we woodturners must be so honest to SAY THAT and why? To help protect the people who are less experienced, less skilled , less talented. It is not good enough to say : it is not dangerous if you are carefull because .... you only can be carefull with the things and acts that you know.

Conclusion:
- it MUST be said that woodturning costs on regular base the life of one or the other (experienced and not - experienced). If the consequence is that some people will not start woodturning well, probably they make the right choice for themself!
- factories put much too dangerous products on the market for not-professionals and professionals and there are almost no usefull safety guidelines in it or ways you may use it or not , not more than the general stuff you find with every new tool you buy.
example: in the woodworkersshop I bought an arbortech. It is a plain metal circle with a couple of very small cutting 'wheels' at the border. I asked information in the shop ... there seemed to be no problems. I used it several times to take away a lot of wood: I kept my dewalt in both my hands and moved it vertical in the wood, horizontal and diagonal ... . One year later I visited a fair for wood and there was a German factory who sold blades with teeth, not the chainsaw teeth but a bit similar. That man told me that it was forbidden to move the arbortech type of blade I had in horizontal direction because accidents occur. He also said that this type of blades were forbidden in Germany because they were unsafe! Since that time, I do not use that type of blade anymore ... but what if something had happened before the time I met that man. Was I uncarefull? No. I simply did not know.
And I blame the factories not to give more guidelines how to use it and I blame the woodworkersshop who want to sell and nothing than sell ... even if this can cause the death ...

- and I think also the woodworkerssociety must be still more explicit. Woodworking is not about JOY. It is about avoiding DANGERS and after that there is some place for joy. I remember there was on this forum a discussion about protection and wearing a faceshield. OK, I agree, a faceshield is a necessity for several reasons. But what do you think will happen if a rather serious piece of wood comes off the lathe? Do you think the effect will be the same as if a fly hits the shield? Do you think it will have no impact on your neck, on your stability, do you think you will be able to stay straight on your both feet as if nothing had happened? You will not, I assure you and if you do then it means that the strike was not hard and is not a real danger.
Most of the time you will have to find a new balance if the strike is really hard and then it may happen that the back of your head is hit, by a cupboard, by a table, by the floor and ... it is wellknown that the back of the head does not have to be hit very hard to cause braindamage. My faceshield was broken, my face was a ruin red, blue, purple ... completely, Both my eyes were closed and thick for a couple of days, the heavy wood was broken in two pieces ... but it is the clash on the floor on the back of my head which causes the permanent handicap. Although, on the back of my head there was apparently no damage: no blood, no gap, just a little bit of pain ... so, once again: WEAR A HELMET.
When I ask the shop to sell helmets they don't do it. Of course, they do not want to present the woodturning as something dangerous, that means a loss of clients (and lives is not their business).
When I put it on the forum .... silence. I'm sure the fellows are thinking: this is not for me - it is not a necessity to go so far, woodturning is a gentle recreation ... and it is ... but not always ... one time is enough ... I'm handicapped and a guy I know (experienced) died because of that, so it is worth saying it, even if you choose not to do it yourself, it is worth to give the information to others to give them the coice to applicate or not.

. Task for the woodworkerssociety.
I think it is a good idea to gather all kind of stories which occurred with woodworking machines and to make a kind of booklet of it. The storys will be followed by safety guidelines. To read stories of what happened and how you can avoid this or that is much more effective for the non-experienced user than the much too much abstract warnings. I think there must be a book on this subject because not everybody is following the forum day after day and ... if you enter the forum in 2011 then you do not know about the discussions which were on the forum on 2010! I think that a woodturnerssociety who loves his members has to protect them as effective as they can and that is a way to be effective.


It is not likely that I will soon have another accident. I'm very carefull now. Each time I handle a new machine I'm thinking very carefull about it and I'm thinking all the time about what can go wrong! When I know what can go wrong I start to work with it - as you see recognizing the danger comes before the pleasure. I can do it now ... because I survived and now I became a more or less experienced woodturner ... but what if one of the accidents who occurred would have caused my death or cut of my hand or several fingers? I am not too technical - but that is not a fault - I have no 'golden' hands but I'm not at all clumsy, not at all, I was just working on projects which were too ambitious for somebody with so little experience. Is that a fault - even if you do not realise it? No it is a lack of information and edeucation.
For me this is a very important tag: First think about al the dangers and then think about joy.

Squirrel
 
James,

I have to step up and take you to task on your comment. It serves no point in calling someone stupid in regards to their accidents/actions. All "accidents are waiting to happen". I commend Dennis for speaking up so maybe someone else won't get hurt. How many people will not speak up if they know the arm chair quarterback is going to chastise them. Squirrel has many good points in his dissertation 😀 (joking). So we can all continue to learn about tools and there risks I suggest we keep our personal opinions to ourselves. It would not hurt to speak about safer ways to do things or safer tools but let's not get offensive.

Dale
 
dbonertz said:
James,

I have to step up and take you to task on your comment. It serves no point in calling someone stupid in regards to their accidents/actions. All "accidents are waiting to happen". I commend Dennis for speaking up so maybe someone else won't get hurt. How many people will not speak up if they know the arm chair quarterback is going to chastise them. Squirrel has many good points in his dissertation 😀 (joking). So we can all continue to learn about tools and there risks I suggest we keep our personal opinions to ourselves. It would not hurt to speak about safer ways to do things or safer tools but let's not get offensive.

Dale
Click to expand...

I’m editing the post below because of feedback that my meaning wasn’t clear.

Dennis and Chris made it clear that the posting of the accident and the photo was for educational purposes not only about the dangers of that particular tool but also how quickly disaster can strike. This was meant to be a heads up and a service to us all and not a call for sympathy and especially not to elicit comments about stupidity.
I have made some serious bonehead moves in the many years of working with power tools and, as they say, but for the grace……etc. I suspect, James, you may have one or two that you can recall.
I selfishly would rather learn by others mistakes than learning by my own.
Mahalo plenty Dennis for your thinking of other turners to remind us we sometimes work with dangerous stuff and to be a little more careful.


Dialog before posting this thread.

Question:

Chris,
I think your post on Dennis and his accident should also be posted on the AAW forum. Would you, or Dennis, mind if this important piece of info be posted there?


Response:

I checked with Dennis. It is OK by both of us as long as it is used to educate against any accidents using the tool.

Thanks,

Chris
 
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Hello all,
First of all, I did not say "Dennis was stupid". But his actions were.
No sugar coating on my opinions.
I have been woodworking for 45 years, carpentry, remodeling, cabinetmaker, commercial construction, custom built new homes, and 23 years of wood turning experience. The old man I spent my first five years in the trade with
hammered it into my head, THINK, THINK, THINK is what you are about to do the safest way to do it. I still have all my fingers, took a few stitches from time to time from minor accidents. And a heck of a lot of splinters.

YES, all accidents are waiting to happen. But I believe in the woodworking field most can be prevented. THINK, THINK, THINK before you do it.
If you do not understand how to properly use a tool, then get help.
This could have been prevented, and very well would have been prevented if Dennis would have accepted the instruction he was offered.

Think about this, he was holding a 1/2 HP electric motor with a very aggressive cutter with ONE HAND, 1/2 HP, half the power of a horse, I can't hold back a horse with two hands. You can try to control that amount of power, but in the end you will loose.

I have seen people using a router with one hand and holding the wood with their other hand and they ended up loosing some fingers, I seen a guy run a bisquite joiner into his fore arm and shoved the cutter down to the bone, Why did these things happen ?????
They happened because of operator error.
Trying to control an electric tool that has TWO Handles ,with one hand.
The horse power wins, every time.
This to me is STUPID.

Wood turning has becoming a wonderful hobby for a lot of people in the past 10 or more years, How much experience do these hobbyist have in woodworking, or the use of other tools.

YES, woodworking, woodturning, and carving are all dangerous activities.
THINK, THINK, THINK before you do what your about to do, is it the safest
way to do it.
My other two cents.

To Dennis, if I offended you in any way, it was never my intention to do so, this is just my opinion.
All the best, Jim
 
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