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Crown PM tools

dkulze

dkulze

Joined
May 29, 2004
Messages
995
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Location
billerica, ma
Hey all,

I recently picked up a couple of Crown PM (powdered metal) gouges and am not fully happy with them. They feel to me like they cannot take an edge that is nearly as fine as my older, HSS gouges. Anyone out there had a similar experience or am I a)sharpening cruddy, or b)going slowly (or quickly) insane?

Thanks,
Dietrich
 
Dietrich,

I picked up a 3/8th's bowl Gouge that I love! Right out of the box it easily 'chewed' through anything I chucked up. I've been having a hard time sharpening it, but it is totally due to my inexperience at sharpening. I'm hoping that as I get better, it will take a finer edge.

Brian
 
Crown Pro PM Gouges

I have had exactly to opposite experience. In fact I am waiting for two new Pro PM gouges to come in the mail today. I am getting a new 10mm and new 13mm.

But I have found that I need a much lighter touch when sharpening the Pro PMs on the mid speed (I use a 1750 RPM, 120 grit) dry grinder. I am guessing that the metal might be harder (brittler?) to the extent that the force of the power grinding wheel can create a "micro jagged edge" that doesn't hold up as well when turning hard woods. The edge I get from the gentler sharpening on my Tormek seems to last longer than the edge of any other tools I have.

-jeff
 
Crowm Pro PM tools

I have to agree with Jastop (Jeff) that these are very good tools when well sharpened. While I am fairly new to this forum, I am not new to turning and I worked in the powder metal industry for several years as a metalurical technician. Powder metal tecnology in not new, just some of the applications are. I like my Pro-PM tools very much and find they sharpen to a fine edge and hold that edge very well-unless you hit your chuck or a nail or something. DAMHIKT. They are HSS, just made a little differently, very fine grain and every grain is exactly like every other grain. As Jeff said, a finer grit grinding wheel helps a lot as does a light touch. I also like to use a jig to assure I get the same angles time after time. Once you get the profile you like, the jigs help keep the angles, as well as not grinding away a lot of tool each time you sharpen. My favorite tool is Pro-PM 3/8 spindle gouge that I use all the time. I can turn finger tops out of Ash bat blanks for hours without regrinding. For extra-fine finish work, a touch on the 100 grit wheel and a touch on a buffing wheel gives a super sharp edge. Sharpening is just another acquired skill that takes some education and practice. Good luck and I hope I have been of some help.
Don
 
Thanks all. My understanding was that some powdered metal tools would not take as sharp an edge as HSS due to the particle shape in the steel. It's good to hear that this isn't the case and that I probably need to true my wheel.

Thanks again,
Dietrich
 
Hi Dietrich,

I agree with the others. Probably a lighter touch on the grinding wheel. You've seen my stacked piles of roughouts in the photo gallery. Most of those were produced from the ProPM. I also have the same Crown gouge in HSS and I prefer the PM version. The edge lasts forever! I'm not a fan of the fat ended handle though.

In fact I have 2 ProPM gouges with the same grind. Reduces trips to the grinder when I have long sessions with dry, hard wood like oak or mesquite. The HSS gouge has been resharpened to have a different profile, with a much lower profile (looks long) so that I can get in near the headstock.

My grinding wheel is slightly modified. I almost never dress it. As a result it typically is full of metal and probably acts similar to a wheel with higher grit (i.e. 150). In any event I just use a very light touch, just enough to hone up the edge.

As always these are just my opinions and your experience may be different.
 
I have 3 or 4 Crown PM tools and I also am able to get a very good edge that lasts much longer than the standard HSS. I appreciate the information about using a very light touch when sharpening on the dry bench grinder since I may have occasion to use one sometime. In my own shop I use a Tormek wet grinder and find that it works quite well with the PM tools -- I know, I can hear all of the muttering, "oh, so he's one of those stinkin' Tormek users".

Bill
 
Crown PM

I have three bowl and two spindle gouges that are Crown PM, and they all take and hold a fine edge. My only grinder is a 30-year-old, 6", Sears that zings around at 3450 rpm. I use the pink wheels (60 and 100 grit), and a very light touch is all that is needed to develop a sharp, and long lasting edge. Actually, the weight of the tool is the only force needed.
 
What isn't expensive?

I have used my Tormek for years but wanted something I could use to form edges on square bits used in hollow form holders and scrapers without having to buy a new wheel so often. By the time I got a 8" grinder, added new wheels, a balancing kit and a jig system I have about what my Tormek cost in this set-up. I still use the grinder very little because it dosen't get the tools as sharp and the edge dosen't last as long as with the Tormek. The only Crown PM tool I have is a 3/4" bowl gouge and The first time I sharpened it on the Tormek it didn't leave the wire edge I was used to until I wiped the wings with a cloth. It seemed like the tool was a magnet and attracted filings on the edge. Not a very clear description, but it happens, but the gouge holds an edge very well as I use it mainly to hog off bark and we both take a beating making wood round. I for one DO like the oversized handle. IMO I will probly not buy another because of cost, not how the tool works.

Ron
 
Vicmarc.fan said:
The only Crown PM tool I have is a 3/4" bowl gouge and The first time I sharpened it on the Tormek it didn't leave the wire edge I was used to until I wiped the wings with a cloth. It seemed like the tool was a magnet and attracted filings on the edge. Not a very clear description, but it happens, but the gouge holds an edge very well as I use it mainly to hog off bark and we both take a beating making wood round. I for one DO like the oversized handle. IMO I will probly not buy another because of cost, not how the tool works.

Ron
Click to expand...

Strange you should mention it. Whether due to the nature of the steel itself or my technique, that's one thing I've noticed about my Hamlets, they don't develop much of a wire edge. Breakaway because of the metal and AlOX particle size? More brittle? Don't know.

I'd buy the tools again. Powdered tools at my place are splendid at working dry clean wood. They'll cut a long time as long as there isn't sand in cracks and in and under bark, or lots of wet, acid extractives to corrode the edge. All of which means the roughing tools are going to be rehoned often, making PM a poor economic choice.

Get some HSS or A2 behemoths to hog with and save the PM for later. Then your only problem will be whether to put your finest edge on for the final passes and waste metal, or try with good enough. I just pick up my old carbon steel stuff for the final. Sharp, clean cutting with almost no friction required, and my natural tendency to low lathe speeds makes them perfect for the task.
 
Steel - easy does it

dkulze said:
Hey all,

I recently picked up a couple of Crown PM (powdered metal) gouges and am not fully happy with them. They feel to me like they cannot take an edge that is nearly as fine as my older, HSS gouges. Anyone out there had a similar experience or am I a)sharpening cruddy, or b)going slowly (or quickly) insane?

Thanks,
Dietrich
Click to expand...

Dietrich,

I have/use Hamlet 2060 for my 1/2" bowl gouges and parting tool which are all power metal tools. I sharpen lightly on an A/O 120 1800rpm wheel, and am waiting for Norton to come out with their 120 grit SG wheel this year. I have tried an SG wheel on another grinder and notice a real difference in how well it handled the 2060 steel (better) on a skew I have. I also have a 3/4" Glaser A-11 gouge that I bought for heavy roughing. Since it's not as hard as the 2060 the A/O wheel does well, but still not as sharp as an M2 HSS skew I have used.

I wondered about this "softer alloy=sharper edge" debate/urban legend, so I contacted Hamlet's shop in England to ask the question. They make the stuff so they aught to know. They said that with the right abrasive there should be no functional difference between M2 HSS and the higher alloys. I interpreted that to mean that "standard" A/O wheels (white or whatever) will sharpen HSS and carbon better than they will the more exotic alloys being used in the tools. Hence my decision to change to the Norton seeded-gel when it comes out to fit my grinder.

One thing that should be noted is that the exotic metal tools like the PM, Hamlets and Glasers do not take well to heavy grinding for sharpening. While you can grind M2 blue and not effect it, high heat appears to weaken the edge on the powdered steels such that the tool will tend to go "dull" because of micro-cracking at the edge that then "crumbles" in use. Key here is to sharpen these steels with a light touch on the wheel to make the most of their high durability. DO NOT, however, attempt to cool or "quench" these tools in water or oil. That will wreck the edge. If you've overheated the tool, allow it to air-cool and then very lightly regrind the edge to remove any fractured alloy.

Hope this helps.

M

ps: Went back and rechecked my old e-mail. Hamlet did say that plain old carbon steel WILL give a sharper edge "due to the larger burn in the steel". What a "burn" is (large, small, or average) I haven't a clue.
 
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Tool flex during cutting

I have had the same experience that the tools do flex, but I wouldn't say that the PM tools flex significantly more than typical HSS.

I can also say that I haven't seen a case where my 3/4" bowl gouge will flex before the piece I am working reacts to the force of a cut. With this tool I have always felt the wood is reacting before the tool bends, even when a workpiece is an inch or more thick. The same is certainly not true for the smaller diameter gouges that I own, they can ,and do, flex before the wood moves.

But, others may be able relate different experiences.

- jeff
 
Which lathe jet mini or rikon

Hello just found this forum an hope I can get some help.In about two weeks I am getting one of these lathes,can anyone tell me about the rikon?I was ready to get the jet until I found the rekon and saw that it had a 12" swing compared to the jets 10"and that is what got me looking at the rikon.I am just getting started in turning and except for one class,that was a waste(sorry woodcraft teacher) and watching a great dvd by Mr Bill Grumbine. Hi Bill.I have yet to turn a piece.I decided on a mini because I live in NC 7 mo's out of the year and Tampa the rest and want to carry it with me so I can turn in both places.Any help will be greatly appreciated.Thanks.
Ken
 
Ken,
I would strongly advise that you start a new thread with your question to have a better chance of getting responses. Otherwise, it will likely be overlooked as most participants don't like to "hijack" a thread (divert the subject being discussed).
Bill
 
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