Cost of Carbide vs HSS

[Jeff Willaford]

Has anyone determined the relative cost of using carbide vs HSS tools?

Since carbide turning tools on the market today are relatively new… has anyone projected, beyond the initial price of the tool, how many carbide cutters may be needed to match the life of a HSS tool and what the overall costs might be?

I’m not promoting anything either way but I am curious. You comments will be appreciated.

 

[Jeff Gilfor]

I would LOVE to see that analysis.

 

[hockenbery]

Interesting question.
Which tools would you compare?

Most of the carbides I have used and seen used in demonstrations have no direct HSS counterpart.

I do have some Carbide and HSS tips in Bosch hollowing bars. These are the most nearly comparable.
The carbides I rarely use because they cut less material when hollowing than the HSS.
So on a larger form that takes me 1/2 hour to hollow with HSS the carbide would take close to an hour.
So there is the cost in time. When hollowing slower it increase the risk of loosing a form.
These have little Hunter carbide tips.
The carbide tips work great and can leave a much cleaner surface than the HSS. I use them more as a finishing tool for tight areas I can't access with a teardrop scraper.
I often use the straight hollowing tool to finish tight spots on all types of forms.

Maybe compare using an object like a sphere.

I use a carbide cutters in a Perfect Sphere Jig by elite tools. This uses a hunter carbide a little larger than the hollowing tools.
This jig can leave a surface that comes real close to the gouge surface and it is relatively fast. I don't have the experience to give a cost.
I've turned about 20 spheres with it and maybe 1000 with a gouge. I use the jig for 1 and 2 inch spheres which I find darn hard to turn true with a gouge.
The 3,4,5, spheres I generally turn with a gouge, and these I can get near perfect.
I generally sharpen the bowl gouge twice on sphere. I have not yet rotated the cutter on the sphere jig. The sphere jig uses about half the circumference of the carbide.
For me the jig is definitely faster and better on the smaller spheres. The gouge is definitely faster on the larger spheres.

The bowl carbides have no HSS counterparts. It is whole different style of working. A properly used gouge is much faster and leaves a cleaner surface than one carbide tool doing everything. At the Tampa woodworking show I had a chance to see two demos side by side.
A fellow selling all the carbide tools was doing a demo on a 10" cut rim bowl next to Don Geiger who did 13" natural edge bowl.
The carbide guy used about 6 different tools some of which may have been sales related and the bowl did not look all that great.
The carbide guy had to switch tools to get curves and the switch again to smooth the surface
Dons bowl was finished in a little less time and was ready for 220 sandpaper. Don had to stop and sharpen twice.
Don't skill level is a bit higher so I would expect his bowl to look better.
This is me projecting into the what I was watching but it looked like Don was having a ball and the Carbide guy was doing a job .

Drops are an easy comparison.
You get one per carbide.
You get a couple hundred with an HSS then you will have ground the tool away.
I put plastic tubing protectors on all my carbides even when they are in the drawer.


I think for the average turner there are other factors to consider
Quality of result
Time to make the object
Stress on the body parts
Pleasure of using (often related to the above)


This is no answer. Except that most every turner would find a carbide tool useful from time to time.

 

[david shafron]

i use both

it depends on what i am turning and the results i want.

when i turn a soft wood for ruff out i will use the carbide tool due to i can do a plunge cut and just hog it out.
for finish cuts and shear scraping the outside i like doug thomptons tools due to they hold an edge well. (he is also a member of my turning club)

i have over 30 turning tools and they all have different uses where they are better then other options.

it is not the money at this time but i hate to sand so it is what will give a better finish

 

[john lucas]

I'm not really sure you can compare for me anyway because I use them in different ways. The Hunter tools are excellent for finish cuts on boxes. I don't have anything else that will cut that clean. I still rough out using a bowl gouge because that's just what I'm used to. I could use the new Hunter Hercules or Osprey to do the hollowing but I guess I'm just too comfortable with the bowl gouge.
I still turn most of my mirrors with the bowl gouge but will grab the Hunter #4 or #5 for difficult grain problems because it cuts so much cleaner.
The Hunter Hercules is an interesting tool. You can remove a lot of wood really fast using it as a scraper. I think it will compete with a bowl gouge in that usage. It may not win but it would be close. You can then turn it at an angle and use it just like the nose of a bowl gouge and get really really clean cuts. You can turn the tip facing the wood and shear scrape if needed.
I have an Easy Wood tool. So far I'm not a fan other than if you give it too a beginner you don't have to give them any lessons. (same is more or less true with the Hercules). It leaves an OK finish when it's brand new but seemed to dull too quickly so the finish is less the great reasonably quickly. It won't shear scraper worth a darn now and I've done very little use with it.
I don't really think you can do a true cost comparison because you have to consider the cost of sharpening stones for the HSS tools and of course replacement cost for tips on the carbide. My experience is the Hunter tips will will outlast the other carbides that I have tried.
One interesting side note. I took a Hunter cutter that I had been using for 2 years off and on, not an every day usage but used fairly often to finish box interiors or make a final pass across a hand mirror. I also used that particular tool to show people who came over to my shop how the Hunter cutters work so it got a fair amount of use. It still cut cleaner than a bowl gouge with the standard 50 degree grind ( not necessarily my spindle gouge that has a 35 degree grind). I replace the cutter and of course it did cut better but not by a huge amount. When I magnified the cutter it looked like an arrow head out of knapped flint. I could not believe it would cut as good as it does. Apparently the chips flake off similar to knapping flint in that it leave a jagged but very sharp edge. I think that's just one reason why they cut so well and last a long time. Below is a photo of the 2 cutters.

 

[Hu Lowery]

my bet is time saved

First, as a newcomer to wood turning let me be plain, I haven't cut a piece of wood with carbide. I have cut a lot of material with carbide though, from soft plastics to very hard steels. Working in a short run production machine shop that believed in carbide I went through a bunch of it and and I cut things with carbide that were almost impossible to cut with HSS.

I also had my own medium sized lathe and mill at home and used high speed steel almost exclusively. Aside from never running out of inserts, I did things with HSS that couldn't be done with inserts in my opinion, not off the shelf inserts anyway.

Cost per inch of material cut, HSS blows away carbide in my opinion. When either will do I don't think there is any comparison in cost. Then we look at time, time is money or time is pleasure for the hobbyist. Would you rather spend your time sharpening or cutting wood?

Many people have trouble shaping and sharpening high speed steel properly. Poorly shaped and sharpened steel is terribly inefficient and both sharpening and using poorly shaped or sharpened tools are significant sources of injury in shops. Too, most people, myself included, dislike grinding. I'll buy a CBN wheel just to get away from the grit from the soft white wheel. Carbide can be sharpened but most don't. I never have except on a brazed tool so I can't say how it would affect cost to sharpen the inserts. I seem to remember carbide is terrible to inhale but I don't think any of the steel or grit is real wonderful to inhale either.

If we look at straight dollars, something like M4 might be the cheapest for the amount of wood cut. For production time, carbide wins hands down and if time is the issue, how often does someone decide it is time to take a quick break to do something else while they are stopped to sharpen anyway? In a production environment I would make maximum use of carbide just as I think most machine shops do now. The shop only makes money when chips are flying.

As a home turner I have a hard time getting behind carbide, I like shaping a tool to my liking. If I am having an issue turning something I can usually fix the issue with a minute or two at the grinder reshaping steel. Possibly I could reshape an insert but carbide is very brittle and I wouldn't advise changing the structural integrity of an insert nor would I shape a bigger piece of carbide into many of the shapes I have modified high speed steel to.

I no doubt will eventually have some carbide for wood. When I do it will be some of the tools with the carbide angled to shear instead of scrape. Should produce better work and give longer insert life too.

Before closing, one more plus for carbide, we are working with a sharp tool throughout the project so we aren't tempted to stretch a tool that needs sharpening a little further when we are almost done with a step.

Neither is wrong to use, I think HSS offers more on the spot options when you run into issues. Of course a machine shop with a hundred thousand worth of inserts usually has a solution to the problem too.

The above is my opinion based on experience, not a shred of personal research to back it up! 🙂 At the end of the day I am very old school, steel is real!

Edit: I forget, I have cut quite a bit of wood with carbide, mostly in a trim router on my pool cue lathe. Not the same thing as a handheld tool though. To clarify, I haven't cut any wood with a hand held carbide tool.

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

Has anyone determined the relative cost of using carbide vs HSS tools?

Since carbide turning tools on the market today are relatively new… has anyone projected, beyond the initial price of the tool, how many carbide cutters may be needed to match the life of a HSS tool and what the overall costs might be?

I’m not promoting anything either way but I am curious. You comments will be appreciated.

I have a handful of carbide tipped tools and an unreasonable number of HSS tools. For what I do, there is not a great deal of overlap in their application. Trying to compare the cost seems to me to mostly be an exercise in wasted time. If I ever reach the point of being that pedantic about the cost of woodturning tools, it will be time for me to take up a new less expensive hobby -- perhaps aviation, golf, sailing, or amateur radio.

 

[Odie]

For the way I use them, I'd say it would be best to make any comparison between carbide and HSS to a scraper used in a shearing cut. One thing that is not so good with carbide, is the deterioration of the edge is so gradual, that it's not always apparent that a freshly ground HSS scraper wouldn't have been the better choice for any specific cut. The HSS scraper has a very short life span, but it's also very quick to renew the edge. There is no difference between the two for how sharp, or effective the edge can be......

To be sure, I'm not sure I could give one, or the other any real advantage......but, I tend to lean toward the HSS, because of the ease of renewing the cutting edge, or burr.

Every once in awhile, I run into a specific application for a specific piece of wood where the carbide does a better job. This is not a constant, but a very limited application......and, my analysis on why this is, is influenced by the cupped inner "flute" of the circular carbide cutter.

I wouldn't advise against having either.......the better option is to have both, because both have their specific advantages and drawbacks.

ooc



edit: Pardon me, but I just realized I got a little side tracked from the OP's question. As far as a cost analysis, or comparison between carbide and HSS........I haven't made any real effort to compare. My bet is that the carbide will be the more expensive in the long run.........but, we're talking about years of use, so the real cost is not that significant. One thing I've done that extends the life of a carbide cutter, is to use a black felt tip pen to mark the area of the cutter that is dulled. That way, I know what portion of the circular cutter has been used, and what portion has a fresh edge.


.

 

[Leslie Walper]

Why not sharpen?

Why not sharpen the carbide inserts? You may be tempted to ask "How can I duplicate that cutting angle?" Well, don't sharpen that face. Remove the cutter from the holder, flip it upside down and give it a hair cut, — "take a little off the top." Use your flat diamond hone with a little oil and lightly rub the top surface of the insert on the hone—it doesn't take much rubbing. What you end up with is an absolutely sharp cutting edge on a very slightly thinner insert. How many years of turning can you get out of a $2 insert?

 

[MichaelMouse]

Has anyone determined the relative cost of using carbide vs HSS tools?

Since carbide turning tools on the market today are relatively new… has anyone projected, beyond the initial price of the tool, how many carbide cutters may be needed to match the life of a HSS tool and what the overall costs might be?

I’m not promoting anything either way but I am curious. You comments will be appreciated.

Certainly less of a concern for hobby types, which is what most on the forum are. Carbide is not relatively new. It was available twenty five years ago as brazed carbide ends on conventional tools, in a shape mimicking the unmodified tool. Used some of them back at the college. Problem was, they were brittle, and had to be ground at a pretty large sharpness angle so they wouldn't chip. Made a good, low pitch slice impossible and the stuff was not as fine-grained as today's stuff, so a chip could involve grinding back a 32nd of an inch to freshen the edge.

I'm a free-hand sharpener, so my steel tools are freshened often, and fade slowly. I've got a thousand pieces in my rougher and 5/8 Sorby bowl, easy. They've got maybe another 500 left. I also use about a half-dozen other gouges for specific tasks, so the total investment is high, but the cost per turned piece is mere pennies. Carbide makes even less economic difference when you consider that one extra grade of sandpaper you don't have to use to clean up a scrape here and there.

It's a difference that makes so little difference that you might as well use what you like, and not worry about what cost differential it might involve.

 

[john lucas]

You cant sharpen the Hunter style of carbide cutters. You can sharpen the EZ wood style of cutter

 

[Odie]

You cant sharpen the Hunter style of carbide cutters. You can sharpen the EZ wood style of cutter

Hiya John.......

Well......you could sharpen the Hunter carbide cutters, if you made a special jig to do it. We sharpen carbide cutters where I work for CNC lathes and multiple feed CNC screw machines. It's done on a slow speed diamond disc about 6" in diameter with an adjustable table......The disc surface is very similar to the diamond coating you find in woodturner's catalogues for hand honing.

For my use in woodturning, it wouldn't be worth the effort to resharpen Hunter carbide cutters, because I use them very infrequently. Like many specialized tools, when you need it, you need it, but doesn't see a lot of use! If I used them more often, it might be worth it to make the jig. At this point, I'd rather purchase them, because with the small amount of use I need them for, the Hunter cutters will last me a long time......

ooc

 

[john lucas]

If you can your better than me. I built a jig to spon the cutter i tried at least a half dozen different grinding mediums. Cant remember what all i used but they were all harder than the carbide. It just kept chipping instead of polishing

 

[Odie]

If you can your better than me. I built a jig to spon the cutter i tried at least a half dozen different grinding mediums. Cant remember what all i used but they were all harder than the carbide. It just kept chipping instead of polishing

Well, I haven't sharpened Hunter cutters myself, but we do sharpen carbide regularly at work. There is no problem with chipping there. It could be that the difference is the slow speed diamond disc that we use. The disc revolves very slowly.....less than 100rpm, I'd say. The medium is plain water. Were you using your slow speed grinder when you tried it? If so, the much higher speed could be the reason why you didn't have any success.

In order to make a jig work for the Hunter cutter, it would have to revolve in a true circle at a steady uninterrupted pace as it revolves against the disc at the proper angle. A jig could be made that would do that......but, like I say, I haven't personally done it.

On the other hand, I could be full of baloney on this! Heh,heh,heh.....😀

ooc

 

[Terry Vaughan]

I put a Hunter cutter in the lathe and set it spinning (fairly slowly) and honed the bevel with a diamond slip. I also used a little diamond ball point in a Dremel to grind inside the flute.

I can report that neither method worked. Which is a pity because the material I use the cutters on is very abrasive and they don't last very long. I would use them more often if I could sharpen them effectively.

Perhaps the ball point was spinning too fast. And it was quite coarse grit.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I put a Hunter cutter in the lathe and set it spinning (fairly slowly) and honed the bevel with a diamond slip. I also used a little diamond ball point in a Dremel to grind inside the flute.

I can report that neither method worked. Which is a pity because the material I use the cutters on is very abrasive and they don't last very long. I would use them more often if I could sharpen them effectively.

With the gutter so thin, removing any visible amount will about turn it into a flat circle. That's why machine shops where such tools are used to make money buy them. Not worth the effort to resharpen. If you take some of your attempts and use them as flat scrapers, rather than gouges, you'll probably find them adequate.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Obviously, Odie is correct that carbide cutters can be sharpened given that they were once sharp when you bought them. It is also no stretch to imagine that it is not economical to buy the tooling required to sharpen them. FWIW, Odie, I don't believe that anybody suggested that they could not be sharpened -- unstated but implied is that nobody with a lick of sense would try to save twenty bucks by spending thousands on the needed machinery. There are rational reasons for buying the machinery, but saving money by sharpening a handful of cutters per year isn't in that list. Consider buying carbide cutters as the price of admission for using those tools.

 

[Odie]

Obviously, Odie is correct that carbide cutters can be sharpened given that they were once sharp when you bought them. It is also no stretch to imagine that it is not economical to buy the tooling required to sharpen them. FWIW, Odie, I don't believe that anybody suggested that they could not be sharpened -- unstated but implied is that nobody with a lick of sense would try to save twenty bucks by spending thousands on the needed machinery. There are rational reasons for buying the machinery, but saving money by sharpening a handful of cutters per year isn't in that list. Consider buying carbide cutters as the price of admission for using those tools.

Exactly, Bill......

I'm not sure what the cost to buy the slow speed diamond discs and the equipment to do the job, but it's specialized equipment made for industrial use. Then there would be time and expense to make a precision jig for a round cutter on top of that.

I use the Hunter tool very sparingly, but it serves a specific purpose for my turning style. I buy the inserts, because I get a lot of mileage out of them, and sharpening just isn't a worthwhile proposition for my home shop.

My employer has given me some of the used discs to experiment with, but I have yet to find a good application for them in my shop. They are pretty well worn, but still do have some ability to remove metal on the diamond coating.

ooc