Continental gouge benefits

[Michael Anderson]

Hi everyone. Does anyone here use a continental gouge much? I watched a video recently of Ulf Jansson turning a face grain bowl (note, NOT endgrain) with a ring tool and a continental gouge. While I’m ready to give up my bowl gouge for a ring tool, he did make a concvinving argument for a continental gouge being a superior finishing gouge. Essentially, the shallow curve allows for shavings to be sliced over a relatively long distance.

I’ve never used a continental gouge, and have limited knowledge of it (aside from randomly popping up in spindle videos). Has me thinking though. Thoughts?

 

[hockenbery]

I use a continental gouge on large diameter spindles

Essentially, the shallow curve allows for shavings to be sliced over a relatively long distance.

. This is only for very advanced turners. You get a high shear angle but the continental gouge is very demanding of riding the bevel. A catch with this tool is likely to be catastrophic.
I don’t recommend using this tool on bowls too dangerous unless you are highly skilled.

A similar surface can be achieved with another cut for advanced turners - the flute up shear cut with the leading edge of the wing on an Ellsworth ground gouge. A catch can happen with this cut but the depth of the catch is limited by the deep flute of the tool.
Also the bar of the bowl gouge won’t bend.
This cut is best learned with instruction. Learning on your own will likely result in catches and ruined pieces.
With training this cut delivers a high shear angle much more safely than the continental gouge.

The continental gouge can keep digging in and the thin tool most likely tanged can bend or break.

 

[Doug Freeman]

I dont have a ring tool, but my understanding is they excel with endgrain and not so much face grain.

I have 3/4” and 1” conti sg’s. I use them some, but find the flute up shearing cut, as @hockenberry mentioned, with a 5/8” bg to leave a better surface. A conti sg with a hi bevel angle, 55-60 deg, is good for finish cuts on end grain bowls, center out. Also works on the OD.

 

[Richard Coers]

Continental gouges go way back in turning history. It was a very efficient style for any blacksmith of the day to form. Back when a milling machine was not available to form the flute. Major downside is the small tang used to carry the handle. Same as Hockenbery, used for larger spindle work only. A guy named Rick Reeves made thousands of spinning wheels with mostly a large continental gouge. He used it like a gouge and a skew with his long shallow sweep. Edit; decided to look it up. "Between 1964 and 2001, Rick Reeves produced 11,129 spinning wheels" https://spinoffmagazine.com/a-conversation-with-rick-marge-reeves/

 

[Dean Center]

I've used a shallow continental style spindle gouge from time to time. If you pay attention to the edge angle, you can get nice clean cuts, but skinny beads and coves aren't its forte.

I've never used one on a face grain/bowl turning and would consider it equally dangerous as using a SRG in that situation.

 

[Michael Anderson]

A similar surface can be achieved with another cut for advanced turners - the flute up shear cut with the leading edge of the wing on an Ellsworth ground gouge. A catch can happen with this cut but the depth of the catch is limited by the deep flute of the tool.
Also the bar of the bowl gouge won’t bend.

Thanks Al. Eggs on my face, I didn’t realize the cg was a tanged tool. Like a srg. I just assumed it was bar stock that was ground very shallow. Even looking at photos, my mind “saw” something else. It’s clear now—i’m a doofus and that sort of changes how I feel.

I DO use the flute up finishing cut quite a bit though. It really is fantastic!

I dont have a ring tool, but my understanding is they excel with endgrain and not so much face grain.

I have 3/4” and 1” conti sg’s. I use them some, but find the flute up shearing cut, as @hockenberry mentioned, with a 5/8” bg to leave a better surface. A conti sg with a hi bevel angle, 55-60 deg, is good for finish cuts on end grain bowls, center out. Also works on the OD.

Good to know—thanks Doug! Ulf swears by it for face and end, though I’m not convinced that bowl gouges aren’t better overall for facegrain. He is a wizard with a ring tool though.

Continental gouges go way back in turning history. It was a very efficient style for any blacksmith of the day to form. Back when a milling machine was not available to form the flute. Major downside is the small tang used to carry the handle. Same as Hockenbery, used for larger spindle work only. A guy named Rick Reeves made thousands of spinning wheels with mostly a large continental gouge. He used it like a gouge and a skew with his long shallow sweep. Edit; decided to look it up. "Between 1964 and 2001, Rick Reeves produced 11,129 spinning wheels" https://spinoffmagazine.com/a-conversation-with-rick-marge-reeves/

I appreciate the history Richard—that’s really interesting. 11k spinning wheels, holy moly!

I've used a shallow continental style spindle gouge from time to time. If you pay attention to the edge angle, you can get nice clean cuts, but skinny beads and coves aren't its forte.

I've never used one on a face grain/bowl turning and would consider it equally dangerous as using a SRG in that situation.

Knowing now that it is a tanged tool (oversight on my part, oof!) I’m not as enticed with it for face grain work. Wouldn’t mind having one for spindle work though.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Be careful of Youtube videos.
Michael, have you taken any classes with a pro, Ellsworth, Bosch, Stirt, to name a few? I have, and I wish I had dome it earlier in my turning career. Self taught bad habits are really hard to break. Yes, it can be expensive, but having a pro standing at your side and maybe correcting your wrist or hand movement while in the midst of a cut can be a the best learning experience.

 

[Michael Anderson]

Be careful of Youtube videos.
Michael, have you taken any classes with a pro, Ellsworth, Bosch, Stirt, to name a few? I have, and I wish I had dome it earlier in my turning career. Self taught bad habits are really hard to break. Yes, it can be expensive, but having a pro standing at your side and maybe correcting your wrist or hand movement while in the midst of a cut can be a the best learning experience.

Absolutely--I'm pretty discerning with videos that I watch. I actually have not taken any wt classes. I definitely intend to at some point. Ellsworth is top of the list. Up until pretty recently the choice has been acquire gear or take a class, and gear always wins out. But, I'm almost where I need to be for that choice to be a bit more difficult. Ha!

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Michael most woodworking tools and turning tools also did have the tapered tang, and I'm talking some years ago now.

Mostly handmade and steel was expensive and a regular tang was the normal way of making them and wasted less steel, and was a good way to install tools into handles.

It is only in the last maybe 50 years if that long, that turning tools are made with full size rods and set into handles without the tapered tang.

Peter Child is the inventor of the modern turning tool, had it made by a Sheffield tool compagnie, made this around 1970 or shortly before that.

But the tanged tools where and still are made for a long time afterward.

I have a picture of Rude Osolnik here that shows the tool he would use to turn his well known candle holders, starting at around 2 inches and going down to a pretty thin waist see the candle holders, I'm sure you need to practice using a tool like that, as other tools need to be learned to use effectively.





I have and occasionally use a so called continental gouge when I want see if I can get a better surface on a turning.

I also have a link to a very old, nearly a century old film of a turner using a shallow gouge (continental) and a hook tool as well as a skew to turn a bowl and lid for it

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_Ph6nZfGE

 

[odie]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_Ph6nZfGE

Loved that video ^^^^^

Note the traditional grinds on his gouges, and how versatile they are.....even though he's using very easy to turn wood.

Note the catch he had with the hook tool at 6:06.

-----odie-----

 

[robo hippy]

Michael Mouse, who is no longer on this forum, was known for using his 'broad sweep' gouges for turning his bowls. He cut in a 'shear scrape' mode, so not a bevel rubbing cut. He used it for both inside and outside the bowl. I have used a continental style gouge on the outsides of a bowl. Just like the skew chisel, ALWAYS cut on the lower 1/3 to 1/2 of the blade. If you get above center, you will get a major catch since the tool is not balanced. I would not use one on the inside of a bowl. You have to drop the handle to be 'safe'. On a long bed lathe, that is difficult at best. On a short bed lathe, it is a bit easier to do. I do like Doug Thompson's fluteless gouge, which essentially is a continental style gouge but it is half round bar stock. Same rule applies about cutting on lower 1/3 of the blade. I like it for fine finish cuts in the transition and across the bottom of the bowl. Not so much on the sides of the bowl.

robo hippy

 

[Michael Anderson]

@Leo Van Der Loo that was a wonderful video and a great history lesson on tang vs bar stock tools. I really appreciate the time you put into your thoughtful response.

Re. the video, what a nice use of a basic tool set. It’s so interesting to see the similarities and differences between turning then, and turning now. Aside from the of continental gouges, that hook tool was cool too, eh?

Every time I see photos of Rude’s candleholders I smile. The curves are so nice and fluid.

 

[Michael Anderson]

@robo hippy thanks for the response. Makes sense about treating it like a skew chisel. That’s what I’ve kind of been thinking—certainly reminds me of a concave skew.

I’ve often wondered about the Thompson fluteless gouge. I believe I’ve seen a video review of yours. Looks like ideal bottom feeder.

 

[Timothy White]

What makes a tanged tool dangerous?
answer hanging the cutting edge too far over the tool rest. A ten foot handle with an elephant sitting on it will not stop a flat tang from bending if the tool rest is too far from the work period end of story. Make a habit of not hanging more than 1/3 of the length of the flute over the rest. It is best to use safe drives while learning to use this tool. This is a marvelous tool it is my favorite tool. It was designed to rough spindles from square to round quickly. It was not designed for bowl turning. Turning tools are class one levers. The closer the fulcrum is to the load the less force it takes to lift it. Doug Thompson makes an SRG with a 3/4” tang, hang it too far over the tool rest and get a large catch. The laws of physics are not suspended because you bought a gouge with a stronger tang. I grantee the tang doesn’t bend something is going give.
I haven’t messed with continental gouged much and don’t intend too.

 

[Michael Anderson]

That’s a fair point Timothy. The tang itself doesn’t make it more dangerous; rather, the consequences increase if the tool is used improperly (or with poor technique). SRG can give such a fine finish—I’ve even watched videos of Dave Dalby finishing facegrain pieces with it. Of course, his technique is superlative and the tool is no more than 1cm or so beyond the tool rest.

 

[Bill Blasic]

This is a tool made by Doug Thompson and sold by Johannes Michelsen. The one pictured is probably the first of its type made as I have a few of Doug's very first editions. It is 1" wide and shaped to my eye like a continental gouge. It is called the BRG (Bowl Roughing Gouge) and it removes a lot of stock very fast and you will not break this tang. This is sharpened on the Vector Grind Fixture so you can say it has the hat makers grind. I believe Johannes has a video of it in use.

 

[robo hippy]

This is perhaps the most famous, or infamous video of why you don't use SRGs on bowls, by Ian "Robbo" Roberts of Australia. His catch happens at around 2:40. I watched it a number of times before I figured out exactly why he has this catch. He is doing 'peeling' cuts, which works on spindles fine, in part because the tool rest is much closer to the work, and the work is smaller diameter, so if you come off the bevel, you don't get over powered. He does mention that he was in the shop the night before and couldn't get the catch. What happens in the video, is that he extends out off the tool rest too far, AND he raises the handle so the bevel is no longer in contact with the wood. Blood is donated to the turning gods! If the SRG is rolled onto its side, then it is not an issue, and you get a high shear angle for your cut, which leaves a very nice surface.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhHeyoZLaY

This was my response, Simply, you can use a SRG on bowls, but it is not the best tool. You can do peeling cuts with bowls, and they do work AS LONG AS YOU ARE RUBBING THE BEVEL! If you come off the bevel, then you will get a catch like Robbo did.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwlAb2BWHw8


No clue as to what I did with the font here.....


robo hippy

 

[Michael Anderson]

Thanks for that Robo. I'm well familiar with Robbo's video. Infamous indeed, but what a good demonstration of disaster. OOF! I had not seen yours before--it's excellent. Those angel hair ribbons coming off are so nice!

@Bill Blasic I have not seen that bowl roughing gouge before. It's a beast! I can imagine that it's able to hog through material pretty quickly. How do you think it functionally compares to roughing with a 3/4 bowl gouge for example?

 

[Timothy White]

@ michael Anderson: It works ok but not as well as a 3/4“ 40-40 gouuge.

 

[Max Monts]

I use my ring tools as well as my Termite tools for hollowing end-grain timbers - only. I love my continental gouge for shaping the outside surfaces of end-grain pepper/salt mills that have longer, flowing curves. These are spindle turnings - ONLY! My $.02 worth...

 

[Bill Blasic]

Thanks for that Robo. I'm well familiar with Robbo's video. Infamous indeed, but what a good demonstration of disaster. OOF! I had not seen yours before--it's excellent. Those angel hair ribbons coming off are so nice!

@Bill Blasic I have not seen that bowl roughing gouge before. It's a beast! I can imagine that it's able to hog through material pretty quickly. How do you think it functionally compares to roughing with a 3/4 bowl gouge for example?

Michael you would have to have at least a 1" wing on the 3/4" V bowl gouge to get about the same width shavings from the inside of the bowl. Here is a short video of its use on the outside of a bowl from Instagram. https://www.instagram.com/p/CYCXAVtIe0O/

 

[Michael Anderson]

Max, good to know. Thanks!

Bill, thanks for the information and for the video link. Very interesting.

 

[Dean]

I use a CG quiet a bit I have three 3/4,1 and 1-1/4, if you get a catch with one it is violent. but as said earlier treat it with the same rules as the skew. I am a definite skew person and use them on nearly all spinal projects. I often use the CG on long curves, coves mostly and on larger projects ie; lamps, that require a little more support than the skew can provide, particularly on woods with reversing and gnarly grain. Like a skew it is to your advantage to keep it really really sharp. Just remember where the support is. In the transition areas rotating the tool from a cut at the bottom of the tool toward the center is where most catches happen. same as nearly all tools the higher sharp edge is the edge that likes to hook in.