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Chainsaw and bowl blank prep

Nice video very useful info as I just started turning free wood. Now everyone talks safety in the shop and at the lathe it was nice to see you wearing hear protection but where is your face shield chainsaw pants an protective foot wear. I have been using a chainsaw for 20 plus years and never pick one up without safety gear. I have seen the results first hand what happens both with and without chainsaw pants
 
laymarcrafts said:
Total lack of any Safety Equipment sends the wrong message about how we act and conveys everything that is wrtong when using a Chainsaw, not sure the AAW would be as enthusiastic about the Video.

Richard
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The video is not an AAW product -- it is simply one member posting his methods. Others are free to to take exception and debate topics -- BUT, let's do it in a civil manner. You have a different point of view, so present it with supporting rationale. That would have more impact than simply blasting another member's methods. Safety concerns certainly deserve serious consideration.

My perspective is that Reed's video was not intended to be an all inclusive dissertation on using the chainsaw. The central theme of the video was about bowl blank preparation. He does discuss safety equipment and practices, but not to your degree of satisfaction since he does not wear all of the gear that you would ... that's fine, you can state your perspective and I suspect that Reed probably would agree with much or all that you state.

While I do agree that wearing safety equipment is a smart idea, I will also confess that I don't own much in the way of "official" safety gear, but I do wear boots, leather gloves, a helmet and visor, and hearing protection. I have been using a chainsaw for about 50 years, but I definitely do NOT subscribe to the notion that my past behavior somehow guarantees future results. I feel that my use of the chainsaw is done more safely than the average person with little prior experience. I learned the hard way in a few instances and am more fortunate that I deserve since I never had an injury. At least I was smart enough to learn from my mistakes when I was young.

The topic of sending the wrong message has received a lot of attention lately particularly with respect to demonstrators not always practicing what they preach. Most of us have been around long enough to discern what is or isn't safe and filter whatever we learn from each other.
 
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Safety with chainsaws

The most dangerous things I have encountered with chainsaws is group wood harvesting.

Whenever I am involved in groups I hold a short meeting and insist on two things

1. Only person within 6 feet of a running chainsaw is the operator.

2. Only one chainsaw working the same stick.


I have had ignorant well meaning people run up from my blind side and grab a piece of wood I am sawing inches from the bar to steady the wood.
They just don't know any better. I stop the saw and explain that I don't know for sure where that bar will be in the next instant I could hit them in the head or torso.
The same thing with people wanting move pieces i have just cut while I'm cutting the next section especially bad when limbing a tree.

When wood is cut through both pieces are likely to move. A second sawyer on the same log is at great risk if the log moves.
 
Well said Al. I local turner called me one time and said she was never going to go to a group cutting anymore. People were waving chainsaws everywhere. We all need to observe the safety rules and cut within our limits. I will admit that I rarely use safety gear other than safety glasses, hearing protection and gloves, when I'm sawing. I've been using a chainsaw a long time and I guess I just feel comfortable with that gear.
 
I knew there would be comments about me not wearing anything other than hearing protection. Maybe I should have stressed the 'professional on closed course, do not attempt' part. For sure if I was a tree faller, and in the woods cutting all day long, I would have all of the protection. Maybe I should have included links to the chainsaw makers web sites for a full safety thing. The clip was intended for those who are familiar with the tool, not as an instructional on how to use a chainsaw. Side notes, I can not wear boots, they are just not compatible with my feet and body. Just about the same with long pants. Would it have been proper for me to wear all the protective gear if I never wear it at home?

robo hippy
 
We all need to make our own decisions on safety equipment.
For sure you want gloves, hearing protection eye protection.
If anything is above your head a hard hat. I like the Stihl hard had with screen face sheild.

Tight fitting clothing, tied laces, cleared work area, escape route in felling trees.

Know the safe and effective use of the saw.

A quick check sheet is available form osha.
https://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_Hurricane_Facts/chainsaws.pdf

Al
 
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Should videos posted on this forum comply with safety standards?

Reed,

Perhaps I was a little brusque with my comments in regard to you not wearing PPE in your chainsaw video and if I offended you, I apologize.

I have four wood lathes in my woodshop and six years ago I opened my shop to a church group for fellowship and woodworking. More than 60 people have attended one or more session and all of them are college graduates or high school honor students. But fewer than five have ever used a chainsaw. Most of them are newly retired baby boomers which is the same demographic as most new members of the AAW. These people are very much like the well meaning idiots that show up for group cutting events and constitute a significant portion of your viewing audience.

When it comes to safety we shouldn’t be afraid to offend. The number one rule in my shop is “If you see something unsafe, say something.†And that goes for me too. I’ve had high school students remind me to put my face shield down and thanked them for it.

So in answer to your question, “Would it have been proper for me to wear all the protective gear if I never wear it at home?†I believe the answer is yes. This is one of the few times in life when it’s OK to be a hypocrite.

I also have to disagree with Bill when he says, “The video is not an AAW product -- it is simply one member posting his methods.†Youtube is a commercial enterprise and contributors make money depending on the number of viewers they get. When we allow videos to appear under the American Association of Woodturners banner we are in effect giving the contributor free advertising and have every right to set standards for video content. I don’t find anything remotely uncivil in Richard’s comment, “Total lack of any Safety Equipment sends the wrong message about how we act and conveys everything that is wrong when using a Chainsaw, not sure the AAW would be as enthusiastic about the Video.†I applaud him for making the comment and hope that this issue finds it way to the AAW Executive Board and our insurance underwriters.

Here’s a few statistics and links you may find interesting.

The average chainsaw injury requires 110 stitches and the average medical cost was $ 5,600.00 in 1989.

A pair of chainsaw chaps currently costs about $50

A professional chainsaw helmet and shield costs around $40

A pair of chainsaw boots costs around $75 - $100

Chainsaw gloves cost around $25

Being able to turn on two good legs? Priceless!



https://www.toolbox.co.uk/chainsaw-injuries

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0ejn7wB9vM
 
Not offended at all. As to the AAW censoring an opinion, I am not sure about that one. We are all a bit different, and some of us are more different than others.

The chainsaw, no doubt is the most dangerous tool we use. Way more exposed teeth than any other tool, and they will eat meat.

Should there be a standardized AAW instruction on using chainsaws?

robo hippy
 
robo hippy said:
Not offended at all. As to the AAW censoring an opinion, I am not sure about that one. We are all a bit different, and some of us are more different than others.

The chainsaw, no doubt is the most dangerous tool we use. Way more exposed teeth than any other tool, and they will eat meat.

Should there be a standardized AAW instruction on using chainsaws?

robo hippy
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I don't know that what I'm suggesting is "censoring an opinion." We should all be free to make videos in the privacy of our own homes. What I'm suggesting is that videos posted on the AAW site are no longer private affairs and should conform to a community standard. If a diviation from the standard is allowed, a reason for the deviation should be given or obvious. For example, "I'm not wearing a seat belt because my car was made before they were required." Or, "I'm not wearing a face shield so I can speak into the microphone."

There are many good safety videos from the manufacturers but I think there is still a need for the AAW to get involved. Many people buy their first saw used off of craigslist and don't know what to look for in a saw or how big a saw they need. I watched a bowl preparation video where the demonstrator placed the block on a "Workmate" bench to cut it. His technique worked fine for the saw he was using, but a longer bar would have cut through the bench. And many older chainsaws on the market don't conform to modern safety standards. Two of my chainsaws fall into this category because they don't have a locking bar for the chain and one of them idled way too fast before I had it tuned. Do I use them? Yes. Would I use them at a group cutting? No.

When I used to coach youth sports the most valuable piece of advice I got was practice how you want to play. If the AAW were to develop a safety standard for chainsaws, members could be trained to a common standard. Better yet, club members could be required to have the proper equipment and common training prior to attending a group cutting session. And that goes for the "old pros" too. I remember the first time I went to the shooting range at the police academy and fired a pistol for the first time. I was a distinquished expert within a week because I didn't have any bad habits that I needed to break. And many of the "old pros" struggled to qualify.
 
This, and any other internet discussion forum operates with the understanding that opinions expressed by forum members do not represent the views of the management. We have common sense rules of behavior that are intended to maintain civil discourse. There is no rule that a post must meet the approval of every other person.
 
Bill Boehme said:
This, and any other internet discussion forum operates with the understanding that opinions expressed by forum members do not represent the views of the management. We have common sense rules of behavior that are intended to maintain civil discourse. There is no rule that a post must meet the approval of every other person.
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With respect,
There is an implication that views expressed here by AAW members are views of AAW. AAW is after all its members. We do have a responsibility to tell and show people the best safety practices.

I encourage every one to got to the AAW home page and download the safety book and read it.
IT IS FREE!

Coach the way you want to play is great advice. And not hypocritical if presented as the best practices are.....

We live in a society that encourages/ fosters risk taking.
The wearing of safety gear is usually optional if the government is paying the bills and there is no company to sue. We use science and statistics very little in forming public policy.

I get amused by our national commitment to prevent lighting deaths. I spent 45 minutes in a plane recently because the baggage handlers had to wait 30 minutes after the last lightning strike to go back to work. I then waited 2 hours to watch a Football game that was cancelled.
Huge expense and inconvenience to save just 60 lives a year. We have reduced lightning strike deaths from an average of 90 a year to an average of 30.
I don't mind waiting a while if it saves someone's life.
One would think we care deeply about public safety all this money and time spent.

Anyone with access to a newspaper knows we have many more preventable deaths happening every year because it is inconvenient to take action.
No one seems to care how many people die from the flu, firearms, texting while driving....

We just do not take safety seriously as a society.
In my state you can text and drive because our legislators like to text and drive. All the science and statistics show it is an unsafe practice.
We can sell firearms to felons and the insane. The insane and felons are on the honor system not to buy fire arms because it it's illegal for them to do so.
We can ride motorcycles without helmets.
No one is required to get a flu shot.
 
Robo's video is not instructional, it is informational. I believe he should be allowed to make the video, and show the video on this forum. The AAW's endorsement isn't implied if it's not specifically stated that isn't. I haven't watched all his videos, but I've watched some of them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall him ever advising anyone else on safety. I see his videos and efforts as his simply showing us how he does what he does. Others are "reading" into his videos something not expressed at all.

Hang in there, Robo........you still have the "freedom" to make your videos.

I also feel anyone who wishes to, can express an opinion opposing anything about Robo's videos they wish.....that's also freedom.

Coming to conclusions that regulations, and enforcement of those regulations for everyone under any and all circumstances, is the kind of thing that has unintended consequences for those who are swept up in the regulatory wave that is supposedly based on what "common good" is. Whose "common good" are we talking about......the lowest common denominator?

ooc
 
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There is a tendency on human mind to learn by imitation. Monkey do the same. Thus, if someone who, for one reason or another, is considered an "expert" post something on you tube, there will be people that believe all he does is good or safe.
Being an educator/teacher is difficult and fot for everybody. There are a lot of teachers out there which are full of knoledge but lack the ability to pass it to their students.
A person post something on you tube for many reasons, megalomany is one, getting money is another.
A teaching video should try to take everything in consideration and freedom does not have anything to do whith it. Often the concept of freedom is used in a wrong sense. Nobody has the freedom to impair somebody and theaching wrong and dangerous techniques can actually damage samebody. There may be no legal consequences for the teacher only moral (cannot find a better term although I know there is one) issues.
In the other Robo's video on band saw, he rounds the blank on the band saw laing it on the small flat on the back of the blank, leaving an overhang of quite a few inches. With a blade like that, and a motor Kw power like that it may be extremely dangerous if the blade rolls the blank for any of the many possible reasons such as distraction of the operator, etc.
In this forum there are numerous posts on the necessity of short sleeves for turning smock when in England they practically do not exist. Safety using a band saw or a chain saw is more important than that, mainly when the consequences are paid by the collectivity, madicare, etc.
 
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robo hippy said:
Not offended at all. As to the AAW censoring an opinion, I am not sure about that one. We are all a bit different, and some of us are more different than others.

The chainsaw, no doubt is the most dangerous tool we use. Way more exposed teeth than any other tool, and they will eat meat.

Should there be a standardized AAW instruction on using chainsaws?

robo hippy
Click to expand...

NO. People who buy tools should spend a little time reading those small books that come with them. Company personnel and counsel spend a significant amount of time writing those instructions and warnings.. Unfortunately, too often ego takes over. "Ve doan nee no steeeking in strrrrukshuns!"

Seriously, since when did the AAW become the YouTube editorial police?

If y'all have issues with Reed's videos, take'em up with YouTube.com or with Reed directly.
 
hockenbery said:
In my state you can text and drive because our legislators like to text and drive. All the science and statistics show it is an unsafe practice.
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I believe that is not the reason but a misunderstood concept of freedom and insofference for rules, which, in history books is called anarchy.
 
hockenbery said:
... There is an implication that views expressed here by AAW members are views of AAW. AAW is after all its members...
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There might be a mistaken perception by some members here that individual views expressed in posts are somehow supposed to reflect views of the AAW, but there is nothing either written nor implied to that effect. Each member brings her/his own unique points of view and capabilities. That is what makes an online forum valuable. It is not sharing of absolute indisputable facts that makes a forum useful -- it is growth of knowledge derived through the sharing of diverse ideas and opinions. I'm not here to pass judgement on any of those ideas or opinions.

While AAW is its members, the members of this forum are not necessarily AAW members. We do NOT impose a heavy hand of censorship by deleting posts that are not in lock step with AAW policy. This is a forum open to any and all woodturners. Our rules are clearly stated and are intended to promote civil discourse with tolerance for the opinions of others.

The content of posts varies all over -- and includes: opinions, wild haired ideas, speculating, idle chit-chat, joking and leg pulling, whining and complaining, handing out kudos and atta-boys/girls, and occasionally substantial truths. The moderators have better things to do than scrutinize the content of every post to see if it is in the best interest of the AAW. I suspect that there would not be an AAW Forum if such a position were taken.


hockenbery said:
... We do have a responsibility to tell and show people the best safety practices.....
Click to expand...

I agree that it is a personal responsibility -- not because the AAW says that we should, but because it is the right thing to do.
 
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Shawn Pachlhofer said:
Don't feel bad Reed - at home, on my driveway - I wear shorts, flip-flops and a t-shirt.
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Me to. But I have face and hearing protection. Don't own chaps, maybe the next purchase?

I don't teach my techniques without approved safety gear, so I probably won't teach chainsaw safety.
 
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For the record...

There were some emails back and forth about the video, Bill and I both commented that that everything on the internet needs to be taken with a "grain of salt" (my words).

I don't believe censoring will help the sharing of ideas. In this case, there was no censoring. No threads were deleted, there was no infusion of ideas from "the management".

Frankly, when the board decides to start censoring, I will have to think about my position here.
 
Sergio Villa said:
I believe that is not the reason but a misunderstood concept of freedom and insofference for rules, which, in history books is called anarchy.
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Sergio.....OK, maybe my "freedom" response was a bit of a stretch, but try to understand the meaning of the message. After reading the subsequent posts here, I see that I'm not alone in my opinion that the forum should be open to ideas, beliefs, procedures, etc., from a diverse knowledge base, that may have conflicting viewpoints. Once rules against that diversity are in place and enforced, it will only serve to stifle input.....

I see it as a good thing, that there were those who brought up the safety concerns.....and, from those who don't always follow the OSHA approved methods of operating a chain saw. Those who don't know one way or the other, are benefited from these responses on the thread, such as from yourself and Al......it's all a good thing.

ooc
 
Mark Mandell said:
NO. People who buy tools should spend a little time reading those small books that come with them. Company personnel and counsel spend a significant amount of time writing those instructions and warnings.. Unfortunately, too often ego takes over. "Ve doan nee no steeeking in strrrrukshuns!"

Mark- I thought "real men" don't need to read instructions.!!!!😉 Frankly i do, but get tired of the crap you have to plow thru to get to the meat-common sense things, but put in there to "CYA" (cover your a..)

Then the additional steps or "improvements" they put in things to CTA (cover their a..). To reverse my direction of my cub cadet riding mower with blade going, you have to put the key from "start" in a different position, push another button-just because they got sued from some man that backed up and mowed over his son. Man won the case I hear. Just like the Mac hot coffee thing. Gretch
Click to expand...
 
odie said:
Sergio.....OK, maybe my "freedom" response was a bit of a stretch, but try to understand the meaning of the message. After reading the subsequent posts here, I see that I'm not alone in my opinion that the forum should be open to ideas, beliefs, procedures, etc., from a diverse knowledge base, that may have conflicting viewpoints. Once rules against that diversity are in place and enforced, it will only serve to stifle input.....

I see it as a good thing, that there were those who brought up the safety concerns.....and, from those who don't always follow the OSHA approved methods of operating a chain saw. Those who don't know one way or the other, are benefited from these responses on the thread, such as from yourself and Al......it's all a good thing.

ooc
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I'm totally against censorship and was not advocating it, likewise I do not advocate censorship from any forum modeator. I also agree that internet must be taken cum grano salis. To make an example, I followed a lot of you tube videos after I had just bought a little excavator (never used one before) and decided to demolish a decaing outbuilding. Learned practically how to do it on you tube but also learned that not all video where correct. How I decided which video was to be followed? Mainly by the comments (which I do not see any more under the videos) and the discussion.
So, the discussion in a forum is essential to understand what is correct and what is not. There are a lot of mitomanic out there and who knows who is who.
But when somebody decides to publish something on you tube or any other place he must have the moral obligation to follow the basic safety rules. He/she is free not to follow them, but if he does not do it in the video this, in my opinion is wrong becouse safety should be part of teaching, at least of teaching something that has an inherent danger. Why a person decide to post a video? If he does for exibitionism usually it becomes evident but if he does for teaching purposes he should follow the basic safety rules. Remember, many people tend to learn by imitation, is in the human nature. There is nothing wrong with it. For centuries in the old "botteghe" of vaious artisans apprentices learned by "stealing the trade with the eyes" as an old italian saing goes.
So yes, freedom to post is there, but freedom should come with grano salis.
 
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Thanks, Reed, for sharing your process for preparing bowl blanks with a chainsaw. I enjoyed and learned a lot from your video. Can't say the same for the comments from those who feel it their duty to lecture others about safety. I actually expected some experienced folks to offer tips and suggestions to fine-tune your technique, or even offer alternative methods, but was disappointed to see all the off-topic, safer-than-thou pontificating.


Ken
 
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Video(s)

Hey Reed.

Loved both the videos, thanks for sharing.

I was one of the apparently few who noticed your methods and was not concerned about what you were wearing. I have worked with wood and power tools for about 60 years now and have a real respect for all 'meat eaters'.

I am one of those turners who believe, rightly or wrongly that anything I see or hear should be used as a guide and not to get too concerned about some details that differ from mine. I'm always looking to learn.

Following what Ken says above, about the only things I do differently than you is my band saw can only cut up to 14" and thus I have to split more blanks with my chain saw. Also I use round discs made from hardboard in diamentes between about 4" and 16" which I nail to the top of the blank to use as a guide to cut rounds on my band saw. I then use the same disc to mark the center on the other side before I start to turn.
 
There were some great ideas in the video, especially the pre-cut strips to size the blank thickness. I got a lot out of it and use my own judgement for safety.
 
Sergio Villa said:
But when somebody decides to publish something on you tube or any other place he must have the moral obligation to follow the basic safety rules.
Click to expand...
Judging by a quick review of what's available on there I'd hazard the opinion that your sentiment on moral obligations isn't shared by many on 'the Tubes'. I'd guess that at the very least half of everything published on YouTube could kill anyone who tried to emulate it.

Thanks for the video Reed. Good stuff in there. not sure I could handle the possibility of getting shavings in my slippers, but otherwise...
 
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JeffSmith said:
Judging by a quick review of what's available on there I'd hazard the opinion that your sentiment on moral obligations isn't shared by many on 'the Tubes'. I'd guess that at the very least half of everything published on YouTube could kill anyone who tried to emulate it
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What you said is the exact reason why I said that.
Obviously everybody does what he wants. Just imagine a surgeon that goes on to perform a teaching surgery and does not wash his hands and does not use sterile gloves. He may be the best surgeon, and robo is a very good turner from what I saw, but the patient al least gets an infection. Do not forget that learning by emulation is very common and natural, monkeys and human both do that.
 
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