CBN Wheels

[John Fino]

I'm a self taught turner for about 2 years now and have been able to get answers from You Tube but unfortunately sometimes miss the mark. I'm on a fixed income so I have to choose wisely before pulling the trigger. I'm in the market for a 180 grit CBN Wheel and I'm wondering if the less expensive ($99.00) wheels are worth buying compared to the $130.00 wheels. I have an extensive construction background and am very familiar with quality vs cheep junk with tools of the trade. Alot of times a cheap hammer works fine for someone hanging picture frames but would never attempt framing a house with it. The other question is radius corner vs 90 degree. Is there really any advantage to rounded corners? I hardly ever turn green wood and turning is more of a therapeutic hobby more than anything. I don't own any high quality turning tools mostly Harbor Freight with a couple of Hurricane bowl gouges. I've made several scrapers and am noticing I need to sharpen quite often but that just might be because of my lack of experience. I enjoy Spindle turning just as much as bowl turning and have recently discovered an interest in miniatures. Any help is much appreciated.
John

 

[hockenbery]

I use a 180 CBN for all my spindle tools.

The radius edge is great for sharpening hollowing tools. Or other scraper tools where you sharpen the side of the tool on the radius- this can’t be done on the face of the wheel without hitting the motor with the handle.

The radius edge doesn’t work for sharpening spur drives need a square edge for this.

I recommend checking out the

CBN Wheels | Woodturning Grinding Wheels for Sale

All woodturning tools will dull quickly over time. Invest in a CNB wheel, and you won’t have to deal with the dust and lack of efficiency of stone wheels.

woodturnerswonders.com

 

[John Fino]

I use a 180 CBN for all my spindle tools.

The radius edge is great for sharpening hollowing tools. Or other scraper tools where you sharpen the side of the tool on the radius- this can’t be done on the face of the wheel without hitting the motor with the handle.

The radius edge doesn’t work for sharpening spur drives need a square edge for this.

I recommend checking out the

CBN Wheels | Woodturning Grinding Wheels for Sale

All woodturning tools will dull quickly over time. Invest in a CNB wheel, and you won’t have to deal with the dust and lack of efficiency of stone wheels.

woodturnerswonders.com

Thanks, I actually have the Spartan 180 in the cart but was wondering if the rounded edge would be worth it for me.

 

[john lucas]

Al said exactly what I would have said.

 

[Richard Coers]

No one NEEDS a CBN wheel, it's just that people want them. On fixed income is a great reason to not buy one. Keeping an aluminum oxide wheel tuned up with a diamond dresser will do the exact same work. We sharpened tools for decades after decades with aluminum oxide. CBN is a very recent addition and it is not a necessity to join the cool kids latest. Actually people turned for centuries without CBN.

 

[Kevin Jesequel]

People also travelled long distances for centuries without flying.

With CBN wheels you get a computer balanced wheel that never needs to be dressed. For me, that alone is worth the price. Woodturners Wonders has great customer service. With the $99 wheels, who do you call if the balance is off or the cbn wears prematurely? Will they replace it? I think that is the real reason (and value) for the $30 price difference.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I'll give a dissenting view: Given what you have said about your woodturning, I doubt you'd notice any difference between a $99 and $130 wheel. Rounded corners? I don't have them and I've never thought, "Dang, I wish I had rounded corners on this wheel." Now, the dissenting opinion to my own opinion is, "Buy the best and only cry once." It sounds like that isn't an option for you so you may have to kiss a few frogs before you find the prince.

Edit: Kevin gives a good reason for being wary.

 

[hockenbery]

No one NEEDS a CBN wheel, it's just that people want them

I both agree and partly disagree

I didn’t need one but after using one for demos. The smoothness won me over. And as luck would have it the next week our club had a sweetheart group buy deal offer from woodturners wonders.

Effective Sharpening requires skill and a true wheel.

I can teach most students the skills to sharpen a bowl gouge with a jig in about five minutes.
1. I have them do the motion with the wheel not moving until they do it smoothly 2 times for most 4-5 for those who keep pushing too hard.
2. Then I bring the grinder up to speed turn it off and have them grind the gouge. Might have repeat this if they push hard enough to stop the wheel before grinding the whole edge.
3. To graduate they do a sharpening with wheels running under power.

I can teach a student to true a wheel with a hand held diamond dresser in about 10 minutes.

Two big advantages with CBNs. Is you don’t need to 1) buy a quality wheel dresser or 2) learn how to use it.
Minimum learning curve Geiger wheel dresser is $117 works with most platforms.
The minimum learning curve ONEWAY dresser is $75 if you already have the Woulverine.
I use the Diamond Jim from Packard. It’s $40 + a learning curve. Diamond Jim is faster than the two above.

"Diamond Jim" Grinding Wheel Dresser

Check out the deal on "Diamond Jim" Grinding Wheel Dresser at Packard Woodworks: The Woodturner's Source

www.packardwoodworks.com

A CBN becomes much closer to cost effective if you have to buy a dresser and learn how to use it.
Plus you save 5 minutes dressing time for every 4 hours you spend turning.

 

[Richard Coers]

I get kick back like "we aren't all made of money" to "everyone really needs to spend the money because it's progress". I just can't win. By the way, 15 seconds to dress a grinding wheel was never a hardship for me.

 

[Brian Gustin]

I'm a self taught turner for about 2 years now and have been able to get answers from You Tube but unfortunately sometimes miss the mark. I'm on a fixed income so I have to choose wisely before pulling the trigger. I'm in the market for a 180 grit CBN Wheel and I'm wondering if the less expensive ($99.00) wheels are worth buying compared to the $130.00 wheels. I have an extensive construction background and am very familiar with quality vs cheep junk with tools of the trade. Alot of times a cheap hammer works fine for someone hanging picture frames but would never attempt framing a house with it. The other question is radius corner vs 90 degree. Is there really any advantage to rounded corners? I hardly ever turn green wood and turning is more of a therapeutic hobby more than anything.

I'd say go for the cheaper option- If you really feel you NEED a CBN - Al Oxide wheels work fine as well if you keep them dressed (It isn't difficult, but does require the dresser and some practice to get it right) Downside to AlOx is they lose radius as you dress them so any jigs you use have to be adjusted every so often - CBN wheel would maintain radius and never need dressing, so you'd not have to re-adjust your jigs either. I'd go for the $99 wheel (I wish they had been available when I was looking to buy one - like you, I am on a tight budget- but I lucked into a used one for sale on here that I grabbed) As for rounded corners, I have had very little use for the feature so far (Though it has been useful for a couple other grinding projects non-turning-tool related) however.... Being a hobby turner, I'd guess it unlikely you'd wear out your cheap CBN wheel before you wore yourself out - The pro turners and guys that work at it every day for hours at a time (and usually are the folks that can afford it anyway) would be the Buy Once-Cry Once crowd (I agree with them for the most part, but I also understand what it is like being on a tight budget - It took me over 3 years of scrimping and saving to afford my new Jet lathe!) But if you can swing the $30 difference between the $99 and the $130 wheels, (Hey 30 bucks is 30 bucks! For some guys it's pocket change, but to you and me, it's a LOT of money!), I'd highly recommend to go for the $130 one. But as I said, if you feel the need, and can't justify the extra 30 bucks, by all means get the cheaper one.

I don't own any high quality turning tools mostly Harbor Freight with a couple of Hurricane bowl gouges. I've made several scrapers and am noticing I need to sharpen quite often but that just might be because of my lack of experience. I enjoy Spindle turning just as much as bowl turning and have recently discovered an interest in miniatures. Any help is much appreciated.
John

I notice no one so far has mentioned this: CBN Wheels typically do not handle plain old carbon steel tools very well - They load up and have to be frequently cleaned so if your cheap tools are not M2 HSS or better, you may wish to stich with your al-ox grinding wheels until you can replace your tools with M2 HSS (like the hurricanes are) Others have said there isn't really a problem with occasionally grinding carbon steel on a CBN wheel, though.. Just thought I'd mention that point.

 

[Dean Center]

My thought is what Brian says at the end of his note, and in your situation, I agree with Richard. If you're using Harbor Freight/Craftsman turning tools, you might be better off with a friable aluminum oxide wheel rather than a CBN wheel. If you have limited funds to devote to your tools, the money saved by not buying CBN could go towards something else that will give you more actual benefit. (in general, I'm a big fan of CBN wheels for all the reasons mentioned above. But not for John, at this time)

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

No one NEEDS a CBN wheel, it's just that people want them. On fixed income is a great reason to not buy one. Keeping an aluminum oxide wheel tuned up with a diamond dresser will do the exact same work. We sharpened tools for decades after decades with aluminum oxide. CBN is a very recent addition and it is not a necessity to join the cool kids latest. Actually people turned for centuries without CBN.

Except with the aluminum oxide wheel it wears down and if you use a jig you have to keep adjusting it. With the CBN wheel you can leave the arm alone and always get the same grind.

 

[John Fino]

Quite a bit to think of. Appreciate everybody's thoughts and opinions. I think just on the fact that all my tools are regular HSS and if that creates a problem It probably wouldn't be wise at this time. Since I don't see myself replacing all my tools at with high quality m2, I guess I'll just go for that f
4 Jaw Chuck and I was looking at instead. Thanks for all the opinions and advice.

 

[Bill Blasic]

There is no reason not to sharpen HSS with a CBN wheel, that's what they are made for. The difference between CBN and Aluminum Oxide is like night and day. I keep 1 AO wheel to reshape (I have a number of unground gouges so I shouldn't say reshape), but if all my gouges were preground I would not need the AO. With my jig and CBN I probably remove only 2 or 3 thou each time I sharpen so it will take years and years to use up the flute of my gouges, they will outlast me. My first CBN came from Austria if I remember correctly about at least 15 years or more ago. It was close to $300 but that wheel today looks and feels the same as the day I got it (it is my main wheel meaning all my gouges are sharpened on this wheel). I have 5 other CBN wheels on other grinders which were much less expensive (including a 1000 grit CBN on the slo-speed grinder thanks to the generosity of a member here). These other wheels have been available for use or abuse of turners here for hands on classes, they have held up very well. That being said I do not care for the rounded edge CBN wheels, I prefer the sharp cornered ones. Get a CBN you will not regret it.

 

[Brian Gustin]

Quite a bit to think of. Appreciate everybody's thoughts and opinions. I think just on the fact that all my tools are regular HSS and if that creates a problem It probably wouldn't be wise at this time. Since I don't see myself replacing all my tools at with high quality m2, I guess I'll just go for that f
4 Jaw Chuck and I was looking at instead. Thanks for all the opinions and advice.

Hmm, yeah Myself, I'd go for the chuck first of all, before the grinding wheel. My first grinder, I actually took the top guard off my Oregon lawnmower blade sharpener and rigged up a platform and made a home made wooden jig (more hassle than it was worth, in retrospect) and used that as my grinder for quite some time before I caught a Rikon 8 inch low speed on sale, and went for it... and as it was I continued with those Al Ox wheels for some time (Still have the one on the left side) until I lucked in to that 180 grit CBN posted in the for sale forum here one day and even luckier, got first dibs on it. (Usually the things I find on our classifieds here that I'd be after get snatched up often hours before I even know they're listed..) All in all, sharpeners can be "made do" with, if you have to pick between scroll chuck or grinding wheel, I'd get the chuck first.

That said, I wanted to clarify that "HSS" and "M2 HSS" may be just about the same thing - M2 is about the "entry level" of HSS (I think, I never thought about if there was lesser grades of HSS) but the difference being between HSS and CARBON STEEL - Carbon steel for one will quickly lose temper if it gets even slightly too hot (Blued) and be ruined, while HSS on the other hand can be pretty much ground "blue" all day long without affecting its temper or hardness. If you have doubts of which steel is which, just take careful note of the "sparks that fly" when grinding on the stel - Carbon steel will be bright sparkly (like 4th of july sparklers) sparks, while HSS can give off noticeably less and "not as bright" sparks , and indeed on CBN it is easy to overgrind because HSS on CBN barely gives any sparks at all. (at least under shop lighting, they'd prolly be quite visible in darkness) I would guess most MODERN cheapo tools , even harbor freight ones, (cheapest of the cheap) would typically be made with at least some grade of HSS steel (Though I couldn't be surprised to find them still made in carbon steel)

 

[John Fino]

Looks like I have alot to consider. I know one thing for sure, as much as i'd like nothing more, I'm not going to be replacing my cheap tools anytime soon. For me as a hobby turner, just because it would be better it doesn't mean I should do it. I spent 40+ years chasing the best because I could afford it and time was money so a breakdown on a job site because of a cheap tool was just wasting money. I'm really enjoying this hobby but it's a very expensive hobby so I really need to be careful. I can't afford a 300.00 one way chuck but I'll never waste my money on another Wen chuck. I just purchased a Deefiine 4" chuck for 119.00 and I'm sure a production turner wouldn't waste their time with it but that chuck and my PSI utility chuck will probably outlast me. Just so I understand better, does regular HSS damage CBN or is it safe to use? If I understand correctly, Carbon Steel is not good for CBN. Sorry but my brain don't work like it use to. Thanks to all for your comments I really appreciate it.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

HSS and any of its variants (M2, cryo, whatever) all will be fine on the CBN.

 

[Dean Center]

Just so I understand better, does regular HSS damage CBN or is it safe to use? If I understand correctly, Carbon Steel is not good for CBN. Thanks to all for your comments I really appreciate it.

Regular HSS is fine for CBN. However, although there is no official grading scale, the tools at the lowest price end of the scale will have the cheapest steel, which means it may not be hardened/tempered to the same uniformity and standards as the more expensive HSS. As Brian says, it should all technically be M2 steel.

 

[Michael Nathal]

If you stick with oxide wheels, you should consider honing. Alan Lacer has an excellent article on honing in Am Woodturner Spring 2003. He has a second article (Lacer and Wright Summer 2009) with lots of photos of sharpened edges. He is mostly comparing the older grinding wheels with hand honing via diamond hone, but also covers power honing . IMHO using a CBN wheel reduces the need for honing

 

[john lucas]

You can sharpen carbon steel tools on a CBN wheel if you get the Slick Stick from woodturnerswonders.

 

[Mauricio Kolenc]

My 180 cbn wheel is 7 years old and cuts like new. Aluminum oxide wheels need constant dressing and get smaller each day. In 7 years I may have used 10 AO wheels. Also you get a finer edge and sharpness in modern steels and you grind away less material each time you sharpen (using cbn). There are great Austrian made cbn wheels if you want to avoid asian ones(Alan Lacer sells them).

 

[rkriet]

You can sharpen carbon steel tools on a CBN wheel if you get the Slick Stick from woodturnerswonders.

John, I’m curious how you use the slick stick to sharpen carbon steel tools. Do you put a little on the wheel before each sharpening or just periodically?

 

[Bill Alston]

CBN is nice to have if it’s within budget. Much depends on how much turning you do and the size of the tools being sharpened.
If you do a lot of bowl turning with large gouges then a CBN would definitely be worth it. I reckon a AO wheel would last a long time sharpening small spindle gouges though, especially if you’re not a prolific turner.

Personally using a belt grinder has been great for me. I reprofile on an 60g or 80g, sharpen on a 120g to 240g and hone on anything up to 800g. The finish from a spindle gouge honed on an 800g belt is hard to beat.

 

[Adrian Wilson]

Personally using a belt grinder has been great for me. I reprofile on an 60g or 80g, sharpen on a 120g to 240g and hone on anything up to 800g. The finish from a spindle gouge honed on an 800g belt is hard to beat.

Agree; I have two belt grinders on my grinding bench, a 1" and a 4". They both get used a lot.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

John, I’m curious how you use the slick stick to sharpen carbon steel tools. Do you put a little on the wheel before each sharpening or just periodically?

The Slick Stick is used to clean the CBN wheel after you've sharpened high carbon steel.

 

[john lucas]

No you put it on first. It keeps from clogging the wheel.

 

[John Fino]

John, if you've already sharpened carbon steel on a CBN, do you use the same slick stick to clean it afterwards? I asked because after looking at many other videos on CBN Wheels I bit the bullet and bought a 350 grit CBN wheel. I do a lot of other sharpening of hand tool blades, knives and in general anything that has an edge on it. I enjoy making my own tools whenever I can and I've made several scrapers so I know I'm always going to have an oxide wheel available for that. Since I already have a couple of decent Chucks right now I purchased the 350 grit CBN for 135 and am extremely happy with the cuts I get from my half inch Bowl gouges and spindle gouges which are high speed Steel. I am little by little going to be replacing some of my most used carbon tools with HSS but I'll keep my 180 oxide wheel available on my grinder next to my CBN for everything else. When I first learned turning I had two belt grinders set aside for just that reason but I got tired of constantly having to replace sandpaper.
Where I live the only place that stocks 4x36 belts is Harbor Freight and we all know that Harbor Freight sandpaper isn't the greatest but it worked for my needs at the time. I started ordering better sanding belts online which helped considerably but unfortunately mixing sandpaper with wood and metal at the same time is not good and I got tired of constantly having to change my belts. Since buying the CBN Wheel, I'm able to dedicate my belt sanders back to Wood. I do have a homemade 2X 36 belt sander for hard grinding metal and that's great for reprofiling and rough grinding of tools that I make and my 180 oxide wheel I will use for sharpening those tools and CBN I will use just for HSS. I'm pretty content with the Hurricane line of tools so I will be replacing one at a time the Harbor Freight tools that I have with those. The Harbor Freight lathe tools that I have are not the greatest but they are the best that Harbor Freight put out with the burgundy handles and for a hobbyist like me they're decent enough and that CBN wheel puts a real nice edge on them. I knew eventually I was going to be buying a slow speed grinder and since buying one it's definitely a lot more convenient than using my belt Sanders that I had set up for that.

Thank you very much everyone, this forum alongside with YouTube helps this old guy to make a better more informative decision bringing out the good and the bad and I really appreciate it.