I am looking at getting a hollowing system, several models out there, but I also see two main types the captive system like carter and the flex arm like elbow2….any thoughts on pros and cons?
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Captive versus flex hollowing system
- Thread starter Richard Bourque
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There is no flexing in the articulated arm type of hollowing systems, Flexing would imply that the boring bar is bending under load, Both types of systems are captive implementations, but just different ways of accomplishing the same thing to make it easier for the user to turn hollowforms. The cost and depth of hollowforms would be two important considerations in selecting a captive hollowing system.
I have both Monster systems and both work as advertised. I can use the captured on 3 lathes but I can use the articulated on all the lathes. They both use the same bases so for me it is much easier to use the articulated for set up and the articulated is much easier, faster and smoother to use. I also have Alan Trout's Pro-Rail Hollowing System which is an articulated system. For me I much prefer an articulated system. I had owned the Elbow System and it worked fine. The only thing I suggest you do is make sure you get adapters that allow you to use different size tool shafts. I have adapters that allow me to use 5/16" to over 1" shafted tools. There are no cons for me with either type system, the pros of the articulated just are better for me than the pros of the captured. They both make hollowing much much easier.
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All of the systems work well when set up properly and used within their limits.
Suggest you consider the cutting tools too. Many systems take bars from other makers.
hard to beat Trent Bosch’s HSS cutters. He also has hunter carbide tip too.
take a long look at the Jamison system. I use mine with Trent Bosch bars. and custom made 1.5” bar for bigger forms.
l’m still using the plywood back rest made in 1999 from a Craft supplies design include with my handle purchase before Lyle Jamieson was making back rests. This system is has been to Demos at 10 symposiums. It is light enough to fly with.
I got the Simon Hope system about 8 years ago in part because I can set it up on a demo lathe in about 30 seconds.
it is too heavy to fly with. It takes all my bars too. Also added the Bosch visualizer. I find video a giant step over laser..
the Jamison or Hope with the 3/4” Bosch bars will take you to 8” deep forms easily.
12” can be done but it gets tedious because of the slow going with light cuts for the last inches.
I go to my 1.5” CA Savoy bar for any reach over 8”
if you ever plan to do really deep forms the jaimison can be scaled up. a handle made by welding 2” square steel. A floor mounted back rest with rollers and add a 5 foot 2” bar and you can do 4ft tall forms.
Suggest you consider the cutting tools too. Many systems take bars from other makers.
hard to beat Trent Bosch’s HSS cutters. He also has hunter carbide tip too.
take a long look at the Jamison system. I use mine with Trent Bosch bars. and custom made 1.5” bar for bigger forms.
l’m still using the plywood back rest made in 1999 from a Craft supplies design include with my handle purchase before Lyle Jamieson was making back rests. This system is has been to Demos at 10 symposiums. It is light enough to fly with.
I got the Simon Hope system about 8 years ago in part because I can set it up on a demo lathe in about 30 seconds.
it is too heavy to fly with. It takes all my bars too. Also added the Bosch visualizer. I find video a giant step over laser..
the Jamison or Hope with the 3/4” Bosch bars will take you to 8” deep forms easily.
12” can be done but it gets tedious because of the slow going with light cuts for the last inches.
I go to my 1.5” CA Savoy bar for any reach over 8”
if you ever plan to do really deep forms the jaimison can be scaled up. a handle made by welding 2” square steel. A floor mounted back rest with rollers and add a 5 foot 2” bar and you can do 4ft tall forms.
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Hello Richard,
I would recommend to try it before you buy it. Someone in your club should have one to take a test drive with and see it in action, and or give you some feedback on limitations of the systems on the market.
I use the Jamieson system....and made my first hollow form after only 6 months of turning.
Here is a link to Lyle's YouTube tool review of his hollowing system....
I completely agree with @hockenbery ... All of the systems work well when set up properly and used within their limits....
If you still have questions...don't hesitate to reach out to me or Lyle....
Have Fun! and Be Safe!
Mike Ob
As previously commented, typical terms are captive and articulated (what you referenced as flex, have rotating joints).
One works as well as the other to hollow. The main pro’s for articulated is space - storage and on the lathe - and a bit easier to set up. These are probably the best choice if you only do small to medium size, maybe up to 8” or so depth (havent precisely worked through it).
Size range of projects and $ play heavily into the decision. Articulated systems are more limited on the big side, but Bosch goes to a 1” bar good for ~ 15” or so, depends on the wood. Bigger/deeper moves into captive.
The hollowing hole size vs the project hole size plays a significant role in the decision as well. If you are ok with a large hole in a small form, say 1-1/4” or 1-1/2”, in a 5 or 6” form, then one bar will do ya. If you want as small of a hole you can have for a given size project, then you need different bar sizes. This is where the $’s play.
Add up the multiple bars, straight and bent, in different sizes that any given system has to offer, and other items like laser/camera mount, bar size adapters, etc, to do the different project sizes you envision. Some of the articulated systems only go so big and are therefore size limited - thats ok if it’s enough for you.
Also look at cutter types - hss hollowing tips (and scrapers if you really want to slick up the ID) and carbide. Which do you want, or do you want them all. Add to spreadsheet.
Lay this stuff out for the various systems and add each one up. Then think about the additional cost if you wanted to go the next step in size.
Now you have the information to make an educated decision (or if you are flush with $ just buy one and if it doesnt meet your needs buy a different one).
I have a Jamieson because it gives the most flexibility in bar size and cutter type vs cost. The difference in set up time vs say a Bosch is minimal. I do have a full length lathe, and while the Jamieson does take more storage space, I was able to hang from the ceiling, so space didnt factor into my decision.
If $ plays into a decision, each of us has to lay out needs/expectations based on our own situation, as each is different. If $ is no problem no analysis is needed - just keep buying till you’re satisfied.
One works as well as the other to hollow. The main pro’s for articulated is space - storage and on the lathe - and a bit easier to set up. These are probably the best choice if you only do small to medium size, maybe up to 8” or so depth (havent precisely worked through it).
Size range of projects and $ play heavily into the decision. Articulated systems are more limited on the big side, but Bosch goes to a 1” bar good for ~ 15” or so, depends on the wood. Bigger/deeper moves into captive.
The hollowing hole size vs the project hole size plays a significant role in the decision as well. If you are ok with a large hole in a small form, say 1-1/4” or 1-1/2”, in a 5 or 6” form, then one bar will do ya. If you want as small of a hole you can have for a given size project, then you need different bar sizes. This is where the $’s play.
Add up the multiple bars, straight and bent, in different sizes that any given system has to offer, and other items like laser/camera mount, bar size adapters, etc, to do the different project sizes you envision. Some of the articulated systems only go so big and are therefore size limited - thats ok if it’s enough for you.
Also look at cutter types - hss hollowing tips (and scrapers if you really want to slick up the ID) and carbide. Which do you want, or do you want them all. Add to spreadsheet.
Lay this stuff out for the various systems and add each one up. Then think about the additional cost if you wanted to go the next step in size.
Now you have the information to make an educated decision (or if you are flush with $ just buy one and if it doesnt meet your needs buy a different one).
I have a Jamieson because it gives the most flexibility in bar size and cutter type vs cost. The difference in set up time vs say a Bosch is minimal. I do have a full length lathe, and while the Jamieson does take more storage space, I was able to hang from the ceiling, so space didnt factor into my decision.
If $ plays into a decision, each of us has to lay out needs/expectations based on our own situation, as each is different. If $ is no problem no analysis is needed - just keep buying till you’re satisfied.
It makes a difference on what style of hollow forms you make. The articulated is better for more squat forms with a small opening and wide nearly flat top surfaces. Captured is better for tall forms with little undercutting. Yup, I have both.
Lot of great advice here! I would start with what do you intend to make? a 6" wide by 4" deep spaceship is very different than a 16" deep vessel. I decided to go with the Bosch arm. With 5/8 Bosch bars I can go up to 6" deep. With 3/4 Jamieson bars I can go about 11" deep. With the home made 1 1/4 bar I have been 15" deep and that is not the limit. If you have wide vessels with smaller openings you will need a bent bar. Good luck with your plan. Let us know what you decide.
In reality what is in back of the tool rest you are using is capturing the torque of the tool that is in front of the tool rest, that being captured or articulated and in reality makes no difference. Any difference you may find is how easy it is to move and position what is in front of the tool rest (the cutting tool or heavier bar with attached cutting tool). All of my systems can use a 5/16" tool and up to a 1 1/4" bar with my adapters. I happen to use Hunter 3/4" and 1" bars in conjunction with the Hunter hollowing tools and can go from hollowing 1" to 20 inches with either system. It is just easier for me to use the articulating system no matter what depth I'm hollowing at, I just feel that I have more control with articulated vs captured. I probably could get rid of the captured if it were not for the fact of showing/using to explain them to new turners. When not having hands on in my shop there is always one of the articulated hollowers on a lathe. I have Michael Kehs coming in at the end of this month for two days of hands on for ten students so the hollowing system on the lathe it's on will have to be put away for a few days. The best advice above is to find somebody who has one and try it out to see what you may like better.
More info about the Elbo2
www.aawforum.org
Elbo 2 Hollowing System
Elbo 2 Hollowing System review. I purchased this tool from Tim Yoder via his website. Specifically this is the Advanced model. They are currently in stock. Tim was great to work with and put my name on the waiting list as they were out of stock when I ordered. He was responsive and...
Hello Richard, glad to hear you are thinking about doing hollow forms.
I've heard this question frequently over the years. I have developed a seven point flyer that outlines facts about hollowing system features. It's a resource to compare different types of hollowing systems. Please Email me and I will send a copy to you.
lyle@lylejamieson.com
There is some truth to this. With the straight and bent swivel assemblies Jamieson has, flat top forms are easily done, except for a “dead space” area from ~1” to ~ 2” from the edge of the hole. It can be difficult to get the right combination of bar/cutter arrangement to get equal wall thickness. I made a 1/2” bent bar with a carbide tip to get the area around the entry hole out to ~2-3”. For smaller forms I only use this diy bar. For larger forms the swivel assembly allows access to the shoulder area.
Bar
10” flat top
11” dia
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I have both. With the articulating arm, I stand at the end of the lathe with the tool at my hip. With the captive system, I stand in front of the lathe and push/pull with my arms. I feel much more strain in my shoulder with the captive system. Maybe you could stand at the end with the captive system also? My articulating system has a vertical pin for leverage so you can push with your hip against it. My captive system does not a pin, thus your shoulder applies all the outward pressure. Bar thickness determines how deep you can go on either system.
My captive system was homemade and thus a lot cheaper though.
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I have Steve Sinner's Advanced Lathe Tools boring bar system. The inertia of the massive boring bar that is so important for deep hollowing isn't the best option for working on the inside of small round hollowforms. A small boring bar is available which probably would work better for small hollowforms.
Donna Banfield
TOTW Team
You have a lot of options for hollowing. Lots. And of all of them, the best one is one you can use safely and comfortably. I have both the Monster system that Bill Blasic has (no longer available), and Lyle Jamieson’s system. I use both, in fact used Lyle’s system this afternoon to hollow a couple cherry vessels.
My decision in which to use is determined by depth/size of vessel. If the piece is going to be 6” depth max or less, the Monster. Anything deeper than 6” will use Lyle’s system. I have the standard bar and jumbo boring bar. I can’t recall the deepest vessel I’ve hollowed, but probably 12”. I don’t have a steady rest for hollowing to use on my Robust, so I haven’t pushed that depth. For what it’s worth, set up is a lot faster (for me) using Lyle’s system, if that makes any difference.
If you belong to a club, (and that is just one of many reasons to find one), you can probably find a few different hollowing systems to try out. Hands on with an experienced user is one of the best ways to help you make a decision.
My decision in which to use is determined by depth/size of vessel. If the piece is going to be 6” depth max or less, the Monster. Anything deeper than 6” will use Lyle’s system. I have the standard bar and jumbo boring bar. I can’t recall the deepest vessel I’ve hollowed, but probably 12”. I don’t have a steady rest for hollowing to use on my Robust, so I haven’t pushed that depth. For what it’s worth, set up is a lot faster (for me) using Lyle’s system, if that makes any difference.
If you belong to a club, (and that is just one of many reasons to find one), you can probably find a few different hollowing systems to try out. Hands on with an experienced user is one of the best ways to help you make a decision.
Thank you for mentioning my system Donna! Coming from you means a lot...
I appreciate your feedback, and perspective.
Looking forward to seeing you in Louisville!