Can't turn inside

[Regis Galbach]

I can not seem to be able to turn the inside of a vessel or even a small bowl. I think I've probably "over-watched" videos online. The outside, I can do somewhat satisfactorily but not inside. Did a couple shallow bowls that were almost 4" platters rather than bowls.

Here is today's attempt at a small chalice. I drilled a 1/2" hole to begin this and tried to widen.....

I joined the TAW (Tennessee Association of Woodturners) and looking forward to one of the beginner sessions next month but, I should be able to get better than this.

I've mostly done pens and time for me to grow to more items. I've only had lathe since December '16 (other than one I had many many years ago).

I've tried a couple bowel gouges and round 10mm carbide.

Not sure anyone can give me a methodical way online to get started correctly but, thought I'd ask.

Thanks,
Regis

 

[Mike Johnson]

Regis,

Starting out on hollow vessels can be a tool technique challenge, it takes hours to learn the proper skills
for each individual tool. Some tools are easier to learn how to use than others, starting out you can
use some of the easier tools that are less prone to tool catches. A round nose scraper with a freshly
ground edge can do a fair job in shaping the interior of a hollow vessel and will not catch as easy
as a gouge presented at the wrong angle.

If I have not turned a hollow vessel for an extended period of time it takes a little time to get back into the
proper tool technique when working inside a hollow vessel. It gets easier after you put some hours in on the lathe using the different tools on different types of items. A gouge or skew presented to the wood at the wrong
angle will create a bad catch every time. These tools require considerable concentration for a beginner, as you gain muscle memory and the angle of attack is ingrained in your brain the tool becomes easier to use. There are several videos on YouTube that demonstrate the different types of tool catches and why they occur. When learning each tool you will have that aha moment when it all comes together in your mind. There are plenty of variables at work when turning a piece (wood type, lathe speed, tool selection, tool sharpness, tool angle of approach)

 

[William Rogers]

Just to understand, what tool and size of tool are you using to turn the inside of that piece. I am not as experienced as many here, but I can't see how to use a bowl gouge on that small of a diameter.

 

[Bill Boehme]

It looks better than my first few attempts. Don't beat yourself up over having problems. It's perfectly normal.

I can see a couple problems in the first picture. There is a glue joint that runs through the tenon which is going to be a problem with the tenon holding. A more serious issue is that your tenon doesn't have a shoulder which is essential for the piece of wood to maintain registration (i.e., in other words stay aligned and doesn't move. The tenon should never bottom out in the jaws. With the tenon as it is , it will very likely allow the wood to rock a tiny amount which is more than enough to cause problems. Also, leave a large base until the upper part is finished to give more stability.

There is also some chattering near the rim of the piece which indicates that the tool wasn't being used correctly. The chattering could also be the result of the piece of wood moving a small amount as I mentioned above.

The catch in the second picture is probably the result of incorrect tool presentation, but again it could also be related to the tenon problem.

Here is a quick sketch that I made to show how to shape a tenon.

 

[Regis Galbach]

Regis,

Starting out on hollow vessels can be a tool technique challenge, it takes hours to learn the proper skills
for each individual tool. Some tools are easier to learn how to use than others, starting out you can
use some of the easier tools that are less prone to tool catches. A round nose scraper with a freshly
ground edge can do a fair job in shaping the interior of a hollow vessel and will not catch as easy
as a gouge presented at the wrong angle.

If I have not turned a hollow vessel for an extended period of time it takes a little time to get back into the
proper tool technique when working inside a hollow vessel. It gets easier after you put some hours in on the lathe using the different tools on different types of items. A gouge or skew presented to the wood at the wrong
angle will create a bad catch every time. These tools require considerable concentration for a beginner, as you gain muscle memory and the angle of attack is ingrained in your brain the tool becomes easier to use. There are several videos on YouTube that demonstrate the different types of tool catches and why they occur. When learning each tool you will have that aha moment when it all comes together in your mind. There are plenty of variables at work when turning a piece (wood type, lathe speed, tool selection, tool sharpness, tool angle of approach)

Mike,
Thanks for the tip on using scrapers. I'm sure you are right about muscle memory but, I do need to be careful to learn some correct technique first.

Thanks,
Regis

 

[Regis Galbach]

Just to understand, what tool and size of tool are you using to turn the inside of that piece. I am not as experienced as many here, but I can't see how to use a bowl gouge on that small of a diameter.

My round carbide is 10mm and the gouge I tried was 3/8".
Regis

 

[Regis Galbach]

It looks better than my first few attempts. Don't beat yourself up over having problems. It's perfectly normal.

I can see a couple problems in the first picture. There is a glue joint that runs through the tenon which is going to be a problem with the tenon holding. A more serious issue is that your tenon doesn't have a shoulder which is essential for the piece of wood to maintain registration (i.e., in other words stay aligned and doesn't move. The tenon should never bottom out in the jaws. With the tenon as it is , it will very likely allow the wood to rock a tiny amount which is more than enough to cause problems. Also, leave a large base until the upper part is finished to give more stability.

There is also some chattering near the rim of the piece which indicates that the tool wasn't being used correctly. The chattering could also be the result of the piece of wood moving a small amount as I mentioned above.

The catch in the second picture is probably the result of incorrect tool presentation, but again it could also be related to the tenon problem.

Here is a quick sketch that I made to show how to shape a tenon.

View attachment 22625

Bill,
This is a practice/scrap piece of poplar that I've tried several tools and approaches. And yes, one catch ripped the piece out and broke the tenon. I epoxied it so I could continue trying to find a way to turn the center. The chuck I have on the G3 doesn't have that taper. It has a ridge. But, maybe I should still cut the taper if it will grip better.
I have tortured this piece for sure. I'll just start over with a larger piece and work on a more basic bowl.

Thanks
Regis

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

The Nova jaws you are using are straight. Do not cut a dovetail tenon. When you cut that straight tenon (to match the jaws as Bill said) cut that litte intendtion at the top of the tenon. Also make sure that the tenon is cut straight and parallel to the ways (as a check on straightness)

 

[Bill Boehme]

... The chuck I have on the G3 doesn't have that taper. It has a ridge. But, maybe I should still cut the taper if it will grip better....

I can't speak from experience about the Nova chuck, but for the Oneway profiled jaws, I put a very slight dovetail even though the jaws are basically straight. I do this because you can't make a perfectly straight jaw without risking a slight taper the wrong way. Wood is a compressible material so a tiny dovetail on straight jaws can't hurt.

But the two most important things above everything else are:

• Don't ever ever ever have the tenon so long that it bottoms out, and . . . .
• Always always always have a shoulder on the tenon that rests solidly against the top of the jaws.

Another good idea is to size the tenon to match the perfect circle diameter of the jaws being used ... if this isn't stated in the instructions that you have, it is usually very close to the diameter when the gap between the jaws are slightly more than ⅛". When the tenon is exactly the perfect circle diameter, the chuck jaws are making full contact around the tenon. When the tenon is larger or smaller than this ideal perfect circle diameter, the contact area is greatly reduced.

 

[hockenbery]

@Regis Galbach you piece appears to be end grain hollowing.
A simple way to hollow endgrain is to drillma depth hole in the center.
The cut with the tip of a spindle gouge from center to the side wall.
Only cut about an 1/8"'deeper on each pass.

Your piece is similar to a box or goblet

For most people endgrain hollowing is a lot harder to do than face grain hollowing.
Your piece reminds me if some mortise and pestle pieces I did when I was starting out.

 

[Bill Boehme]

A couple other thoughts. After the piece is secured in the chuck, grab it with both hands and using some arm muscle try to see if you can make the piece move. If you can move it even the slightest amount then something isn't quite right. Before proceeding figure out the problem and fix it. It could be bad wood, a bad tenon, a chuck problem, or maybe the planets not lined up quite right (check your horoscope if in doubt).

 

[Clifton C]

While everyone is giving good advice, Pay particular attention to Bill's posts. I believe sometimes the poor tenon is given short shrift. I have to admit, I'm a tenon fanatic, a poor tenon leads to all sorts of problems that only seem to get worse as the project progresses. Some not seen until it's too late to re-turn (fix) the offending tenon. My saying is "You should be able to spray your tenon with lacquer and display it on the mantle. It should look that good." Even with practice turning, practicing a precision tenon is part of the process.

I joined the TAW (Tennessee Association of Woodturners) and looking forward to one of the beginner sessions next month but, I should be able to get better than this.

Don't fret, you are on your way, date that piece so you can pull it out in a few months... we've all been there...

 

[Dean Center]

Regis,
You've got a pretty nice shape going there, and you've gotten good feedback above. One thing that hasn't been clearly stated is that end grain hollowing is one of the most difficult skills to learn. It's not the same as making a face-grain bowl, so the tools and techniques are different. If I was you, I would get a mentor from the club to help you work through the attachment issues discussed above, mount a bunch of face grain blanks, and make some bowls. When you're comfortable with that, then get your coach to walk you through the totally different trick of hollowing end grain.

 

[Regis Galbach]

@Regis Galbach you piece appears to be end grain hollowing.
A simple way to hollow endgrain is to drillma depth hole in the center.
The cut with the tip of a spindle gouge from center to the side wall.
Only cut about an 1/8"'deeper on each pass.

Your piece is similar to a box or goblet

For most people endgrain hollowing is a lot harder to do than face grain hollowing.
Your piece reminds me if some mortise and pestle pieces I did when I was starting out.

I've read comments about end grain but, that is finally striking home on this piece for me.
Thanks,
Regis

 

[Regis Galbach]

A couple other thoughts. After the piece is secured in the chuck, grab it with both hands and using some arm muscle try to see if you can make the piece move. If you can move it even the slightest amount then something isn't quite right. Before proceeding figure out the problem and fix it. It could be bad wood, a bad tenon, a chuck problem, or maybe the planets not lined up quite right (check your horoscope if in doubt).

I will make this a habit henceforth.
Thanks,
Regis

 

[Regis Galbach]

Regis,
You've got a pretty nice shape going there, and you've gotten good feedback above. One thing that hasn't been clearly stated is that end grain hollowing is one of the most difficult skills to learn. It's not the same as making a face-grain bowl, so the tools and techniques are different. If I was you, I would get a mentor from the club to help you work through the attachment issues discussed above, mount a bunch of face grain blanks, and make some bowls. When you're comfortable with that, then get your coach to walk you through the totally different trick of hollowing end grain.

Excellent!
Thank you,
Regis

 

[William Rogers]

Regis, I am also learning. I've been turning a while, but wanted to see the post from others. Here is what my experiences have taught me. Bill has given very good advice on the tendon and totally agree with everything he said. I too have the G3 and turn just the very slightest taper. I tighten both places on the chuck. I also check/retighten the chuck when I start the inside. Looking at your picture it appears you have too much taper. I do not like the round tool rest. They position the tool too far away IMO. I have changed all my tool rest to the Robust tool rest. I feel they give much better control. For that size turning I would have most likely drilled it first. Then I would have used a small scraper to shape the inside. I have a small Sorby hook and straight scrapper about 1/4" width that I use. A lot of times with the lathe off I will position the bowl gouge against the work simulating rubbing the bevel just to see what position the tool needs to be and if it is comfortable. I don't have the end experience, but I do have the beginning experience and it was a while till I got to the same point you are at. It does get better.

 

[Regis Galbach]

I thank all that helped/guided me through some of these problems. End grain...... that was the last thing on my mind. All the other tips will help me progress. Making the tenon good enough to be shown is a good concept for me to remember also.

Thanks again,
Regis

 

[Barry Crowder]

A general comment about watching turning videos: Not all videos are equal. There are a lot of good videos out there, but at the same time there are a lot of videos by people who don't really understand the basics. It's hard sometimes to know the difference.

If you want to understand more about using tools with regard to the grain, then check out Brian Havens' channel on YouTube. He spends a lot of time talking about how the tools interact with different grain.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Onfm2CXHo&list=PLjRwVZZffCDQIcUPSnYYIAaLs1lf7SZh0

There are others, but I think Brian spends a lot of time focusing on this important element of woodturning.

Be aware, though, that most of the good videos on YT that discuss tools and grain orientation tend to do so with bowls. It's important to know that while the fundamentals still apply, the application of these ideas is different when turning a cross-grained bowl vs. hollowing the end grain of a spindle as you are in the photo in your original post. The grain is turned 90 degrees from each other in these two modes, so you have to use different approaches when turning for each of them.

In general, I think that starting woodturning with spindle turnings is a good way to develop skills because you can turn between centers (so the workpiece is held more securely), and it's easier to visualize the grain since it's going in-line with the axis of the lathe. It takes a big jump in skill when you start hollowing end grain, though, because you have to mount the piece properly on only one end (as mentioned in this thread), and hollowing end grain is technically difficult. I personally stepped back from making goblets after throwing the first few across the room, but worked on fundamentals before coming back to them.

As a general rule, every time you present the tool to the wood, you should "know" a) the grain orientation, b) whether it's a slicing cut or a scraping cut. Slicing cuts should always have bevel support, and scraping cuts should always have the edge presented at an acute angle. Techniques will vary, but the way I see it, they all support these basics in some way. In the beginning, this will need to be more deliberate, but over time, this knowledge becomes more automatic.

I hope this helps. There are many different approaches to woodturning, but as they say, "some are more equal than others".

 

[john lucas]

Regis I use a small spindle gouge as Al mentioned. The flute is about 45 degrees to the left or about 10 oclock if that makes it easier to understand. I cut from the center out and as you approach the side rotate the flute to about 9:30 and let the bottom lip do the cutting as you move out toward the lip of the vessel. If you use a round scraper start in the middle dead center and then cut to the left and come back out toward the lip. Take light cuts until you get a feel for how it works. I live in Bon Air just 8 miles from Sparta, Tn which is just south of Cookeville. You are welcome to come to my shop and let me show you some things. I don't know if I will make the next TAW club meeting or not. My Demo there isn't until August and it's on tool making. My e-mail is johnclucas45@gmail.com if you think you might want to come out this way your welcome. I'm about 2 hours or less from Nashville depending on how you drive.

 

[Regis Galbach]

A general comment about watching turning videos: Not all videos are equal. There are a lot of good videos out there, but at the same time there are a lot of videos by people who don't really understand the basics. It's hard sometimes to know the difference.

If you want to understand more about using tools with regard to the grain, then check out Brian Havens' channel on YouTube. He spends a lot of time talking about how the tools interact with different grain.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Onfm2CXHo&list=PLjRwVZZffCDQIcUPSnYYIAaLs1lf7SZh0

There are others, but I think Brian spends a lot of time focusing on this important element of woodturning.

Be aware, though, that most of the good videos on YT that discuss tools and grain orientation tend to do so with bowls. It's important to know that while the fundamentals still apply, the application of these ideas is different when turning a cross-grained bowl vs. hollowing the end grain of a spindle as you are in the photo in your original post. The grain is turned 90 degrees from each other in these two modes, so you have to use different approaches when turning for each of them.

In general, I think that starting woodturning with spindle turnings is a good way to develop skills because you can turn between centers (so the workpiece is held more securely), and it's easier to visualize the grain since it's going in-line with the axis of the lathe. It takes a big jump in skill when you start hollowing end grain, though, because you have to mount the piece properly on only one end (as mentioned in this thread), and hollowing end grain is technically difficult. I personally stepped back from making goblets after throwing the first few across the room, but worked on fundamentals before coming back to them.

As a general rule, every time you present the tool to the wood, you should "know" a) the grain orientation, b) whether it's a slicing cut or a scraping cut. Slicing cuts should always have bevel support, and scraping cuts should always have the edge presented at an acute angle. Techniques will vary, but the way I see it, they all support these basics in some way. In the beginning, this will need to be more deliberate, but over time, this knowledge becomes more automatic.

I hope this helps. There are many different approaches to woodturning, but as they say, "some are more equal than others".

Barry,
I have watched a LOT of videos. This is the best and most helpful I've ever seen. I could understand and "actually" see what he was doing.
Thank you,
Regis

 

[hockenbery]

I've read comments about end grain but, that is finally striking home on this piece for me.
Thanks,
Regis

Getting a little hands-on with John or the TAW will cut your learning curve way down.
You probably have had enough trial and error to give a good base for learning a lot from a hands-on session.

The folks who do lots of endgrain turning usually go with tools designed to cut from the bottom center to the rim. Hook tools, ring tools, covered ring tools, or even a Ray Key gouge. My recommendation to novices is to put these specialty tools on the back burner until they master the gouge.

 

[john lucas]

I called Regis and he's coming over this morning to spend some time at the lathe. Glad I will be able to help. Quite often there's simply too much distance between turners and clubs but the AAW has reduced this by helping get more clubs started.

 

[Regis Galbach]

I called Regis and he's coming over this morning to spend some time at the lathe. Glad I will be able to help. Quite often there's simply too much distance between turners and clubs but the AAW has reduced this by helping get more clubs started.

Wow! What a great learning experience I had at John's shop. He is a gentleman and had patience with my questions and my lack of knowledge. I believe he got me off to a clean start with my tools angled correct for beginner and a good practice project for me on a spindle (barrel turn, sphere turn, and bead).

Thank you John,
Regis

 

[Bill Boehme]

John is a great teacher, gentleman, and all-around super nice guy.

 

[John Torchick]

I looked at the date on Barry's post and can't figure out how I missed this one. Ill save the youtube link and review it again. Excellent video- good explanation on what and why for turning end grain.
John, thanks for your method of turning end grain. I have a a spindle gouge and will experiment with it. Don't have a bowl gouge but it's on the wish list.
Edit: Going to the shop and work on some pens. Then......try the end grain thing!

 

[Jamie Straw]

I've struggled mightily with hogging out the insides of bowls. Then spent a little time with Dave Schweitzer. Bingo. I simply don't have the strength or endurance to hollow out going across the bowl (face grain/end grain; FG/EG;FG/EG revolving around). At 17 minutes in the following video, you'll see Dave begin the inside part of a maple bowl. Going into the face grain almost exclusively, then taking out the ripples easily. Although I haven't perfected reaching across and coming at it from the angle he does, hurts the ol' back, I can do close to the same technique with slight modification. Since l starting turning bowls this way, they go much faster and my wrists hardly hurt.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEy6F7NY8Jc&feature=youtu.be