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Canon S90 camera for close-up shots of lathework......?

Odie

Odie

Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
TOTW Team
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Misssoula, MT
I have come to the conclusion that I need to do something about improving the photography of my lathe turnings.

I have been using a Canon S30 camera for a number of years, and I'm finding I have a problem getting the "depth of field" in my photos. I have also experienced some comments about the red in my photos, particularly with walnut. I haven't been changing any color settings, so I suspect a higher quality of camera will help.

I looked at some cameras at Best Buy yesterday, and the Canon S90 is the one that was suggested to me. This salesman seemed to know quite a bit about cameras, and he looked over my online examples.......but, I'm very un-knowledgeable about them. I am probably someone who would not recognize if the salesman was being honest with me, or not. 🙁

He did take a picture of some literature held at a sloping angle, as I asked, and I was impressed with the clarity of the writing at all points in the "depth of field". It looked to me like this camera will be a major improvement in my photography......in that regard. I don't know about the color.

I really don't have much desire to learn much about cameras. Sorry, but that's the way it is! 😀 All I want is to get some settings that work, and use them over and over again.

One thing that is important, is I NEED the photos to be a true representation of color, and details. I am making some sales from the online photos, and I don't EVER want a customer to say the photo enhanced any aspect of the physical bowl......but, I do want them to look GOOD! 😀

I will also be building a light box for the photos. I believe there is some online information about building the light box.......anyone know of some information I should see. I need to know something about proper lighting, as well.

Any comments would be appreciated.....and, thank you!

ooc
 
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It isn't really the camera as much as it is the photographer. The best thing would be to get a beginner book like Understanding Exposure by Brian Peterson. Depth of field is not a function of the camera -- it is a function of the aperture setting for a given focal length. The salesman was probably being honest if you simply said that you want more DOF in your images since a camera having a wider angle lens than your S30 will give an apparent greater DOF when shooting wide angle images. The AWB (automatic white balance) on the top end P&S cameras such as the S90 is greatly improved over earlier model cameras. Also, the better cameras such as the S90 allow you to set a custom white balance which will generally solve any color bias issues, however, if your monitor white balance is out of whack, you will need to fix that problem or else you will not be seeing a true representation of the colors from your camera (which can lead to introducing color errors during post processing). If you can spring for the extra cash, the Canon G11 offers additional capability and greater image quality than the S90.

One more thought about DOF: there is more than one way to achieve the necessary range of sharp focus. Get further away from the subject, zoom in and set the camera to Av (aperture priority mode) with a setting of about f/16 or even f/22. Next, set the ISO to a high value (the G11 has excellent high ISO performance) like 800 or 1600 which will allow a high shutter speed to prevent motion blur. Finally, use a tripod for best image quality.
 
Bill Boehme said:
It isn't really the camera as much as it is the photographer. Get further away from the subject . . . . use a tripod for best image quality.
Click to expand...

Odie, I agree with Bill on this. In addition to the tripod, I would suggest using the self timer without touching the camera so you don't get camera movement. I would also try to maximize your skills with your existing camera. Shoot some test shots at different zoom settings moving the camera forward or back to compose your frame. You might find that the camera is not sharp at the maximum or minimum zoom. If so, you can work around that problem, but you need to take test shots to find out your camera's limitations. I have one camera that shoots sharpest at almost full zoom.

You will always have to fool around with the lighting positions on each unique form no matter how much you spend on the camera.
 
And use the camera's self timer to further reduce motion blur. [beat me to it]😱

One thing you cannot control is the color balance on the prospective buyer's monitor. The only way around that is probably to include some photos of natural scenes, or products with recognizable colors, on your web site for comparison.

For a not-too-painful review of photo technique, go to https://www.woodturner.org/

Search [photography]
Download "30 33 Photography" and "How-to photos at the lathe"
 
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Ditto all the above. I learned photography with a match-needle 35mm SLR back in the day when more control was actually a good thing. Today I'm using an under $200 point and shoot and Photo X2 for everything from simple snap shots to remember what I made, to jury and banner photos. Digging through the dumbed down manuals to find out how to set things can be a pain, but certainly your depth of field, image fuzziness, and color shifts can be mostly solved with a small amount of effort.
 
Photo

Odie-I am in the same boat as you. I have a neighbor who has become a friend and really into photography. I took a course but had Pt and shoot for the first cass. The neighbor loaned me an extra Canon (digital SLR). ended I up buying one on ebay (Rebel Xti)-4-5 weeks ago. and then getting a macro zoom (70-300), and finally an el cheapo tripod from walmart. Going to set up booth in my son's (just left from school break) bedroom. Just learning how to shoot it on semi auto-mostly birds and tree frogs so far. After this week end company and craft show I am doing to set up the wood shooting "studio". Maybe some day all this photoing stuff you pros have been talking about will make sense!!!! I am learning-albeit slowly!!! Gretch
 
Where you focus is just as important as which aperture you use. That's why I'm a proponent of manual focus for shooting turnings. Sometimes the combination of maximum aperture and tweaking the focus point will give you adequate sharpness on the front and back of the piece.
Wide angle lenses don't increase DOF. If you photograph a piece so that it is the same size in both photos with wide and tele lenses you will have the same DOF. If you keep the distance from the camera to the subject the same and switch from tele to wide you will get more DOF. This is because the subject is smaller. You can achieve the same thing by moving the camera back so the subject is smaller. Of course then you must enlarge it further by cropping which eats into the resolution so use your maximum resolution settings.
Color is a different thing. If you use Auto white balance you will most likely not get the color correct. You should set your white balance to the lights you use. However even the color of the walls in the room can affect the white balance. One good method if the camera has it, is to use custom white balance. In this mode you put a white or gray card in scene and shoot an exposure of it. The camera then remembers the white balance adjusted for that card then used that to shoot your photos.
Another good method is to include a color chart in some of your photos. I use the McBeth color checker or a Kodak color chart. Then when you get to the computer you can color correct for this known color chart and then use these settings for the final photos.
 
Thanks for the DOF reminder, John. It's a common misconception that focal length, and therefore distance can affect overall DOF. I used my old 50 macro a lot more than the 100 and extender on the old SLR. One further debit which the newer, higher ISO ratings may help overcome is that the farther you get from a lighted subject, the less light you get. Outdoors seems fine, but you have to really pump light into a tent. Most manufacturers recommend a ~100 ISO as best for color and resolution.
 
John, when setting the white balance preset, the camera doesn't know if it's a white card or 18% gray card. What's the diff? I use white.
 
Richard I don't know. My manual doesn't say but I suspect the only difference would be in low light levels. The gray card may not bounce enough light back. I have used either one because I carry a gray card that is white on one side. I've played with both and it doesn't seem to matter to my Nikon.

MM. You can use the light fall off to your advantage. Lets say you have the light right up next to the light tent and your piece has a dark shadow on the opposite side. You do get some bounce from that side of the light tent which helps. If you move the light further away from the tent, you will actually have more light on the opposite side of the piece. It's complicated to explain why but it simply relates back to the light falls off with the square of the distance. What basically happens is the distance from the bowl to the tent stays the same but as the light is moved further away the ratio between these two distances decreases.
Of course you will have less light but if the camera is on a tripod and ambient light isn't a problem you can just use any shutter speed to get the correct exposure.
 
Doesn't sound right, John. The light which makes the image is reflected, and follows the inverse square rule, where doubling the distance between object and lens delivers only 1/4 the light. If you move the light back the same inverse applies, as you can verify with your incident meter, if you still have one.

I always used reflectors to fill shadows, personally. Light into the tent on the bounce, or directed from the outside in the proper place. Now, with smooth edges on the piece, it can be digitally dodged.

Remember the bad old days of masks on wires?

On the subject of turning, I just found six more roughed bowls while summerizing the snowblower and readying the mower deck. Didn't realize I had thrown that many out there.
 
Robert Manning said:
MM, the exposure for the Full Moon from earth is just about the same as for a daytime exposure on the Earth. This is because the light source is nearly the same distance from the subject, even though the camera distance is enormously different.
Click to expand...

Not relevant. Think of photographing a tree at night with your flash. Looks OK at 16 feet with that camera-mounted item, but awful dark at 32, even though the same amount of light is emitted by the source, no?

Now remote your flash at 16 feet and put your camera at 32. You should be able to dig something out.

Why is it that if you have two identical batteries for your cordless tools they will both growl down in mid-bore? 'Nother 30 minutes to go back to work.
 
MM I'll try to explain it. Lets say you have a bowl 4 feet from the light and the back ground is 5.6 feet from the light. If you measure the light you will have a 1 fstop fall off from the bowl to the background. (I picked numbers that match f stop numbers for a reason)
Now move the light back to 8 feet from the bowl. For the light to be 1 fstop darker on the back ground it would have to be 11 feet from the bowl. However we didn't move anything so the background is only 9.6 feet from the bowl. Consequently the back ground would only be about 1/2 an f stop darker than the bowl.
You already know I'm lousy at math but I've used this technique many times to change the lighting. I used the example of a back ground but the sides of a light box function the same only they are reflecting light back into the piece.
 
john lucas said:
Where you focus is just as important as which aperture you use. That's why I'm a proponent of manual focus for shooting turnings.
Click to expand...

Good point! Unless using single point focusing, there is no telling what the camera will decide to focus on. It is better if you make the decision and I agree that manual focusing is normally better than auto ... but there are exceptions such as vision problems such as cataracts that can make manual focusing difficult.

john lucas said:
Wide angle lenses don't increase DOF. If you photograph a piece so that it is the same size in both photos with wide and tele lenses you will have the same DOF.
Click to expand...

I agree and that is why I said apparent DOF.

john lucas said:
Color is a different thing. If you use Auto white balance you will most likely not get the color correct.
Click to expand...

If you have not looked at the latest and greatest in digital cameras, you will be surprised how accurate AWB is these days. However, there are always situations where the WB error is a fourth order polynomial function of the importance of a shot. I always use a WB reference when shooting turnings.

Texian said:
John, when setting the white balance preset, the camera doesn't know if it's a white card or 18% gray card. What's the diff? I use white.
Click to expand...

There is not really any significant difference provided that the 18% Reflectance Gray Card is truly neutral. Most of the high quality cards are neutral. If you use a sheet of white paper, it is best to use the ordinary quality copy machine paper and not the premium bright white paper. The bright white paper has UV brighteners that will give a false white reference that varies depending on the light source. (NOTE: A gray card is not 18% gray, it is an 18% reflectance card. The gray level is closer to 50%).

Robert Manning said:
MM, the exposure for the Full Moon from earth is just about the same as for a daytime exposure on the Earth. This is because the light source is nearly the same distance from the subject, even though the camera distance is enormously different.
Click to expand...

Good point! Many people do not realize this although the connection to woodturning may not be obvious -- however, to keep the topic related to woodturning, rustling wood during a full moon is an effective way of gathering some prime wood. Just don't use the flash if you want to document your accomplishment. And, you can't depend on your camera's metering system, so just go to manual metering.
 
new camera

I find a so so photo can be made terrific by using your photo shop software. I have produced many very good shots from poor exposures.
A good camera is nice but learning to use photo shop for me is even better. My two cents. Gary
 
I quit teaching photography because every question they asked was either , I can do that in photoshop, or how do I do that in photoshop. You should always try to get the best photo you can first. I realize photoshop is very powerful and you can get away with a lot. I still stick by my assertion that you should do all you can to get the best shot first, then if necessary alter it in photoshop.
there are times when, due to time constraints, that I shoot things less than optimal and correct them in photoshop. That's the life of a University Photographer. There are also times when a few more minutes improving the image will save huge amounts of time in photoshop. You have to know when to draw the line.
Not meaning to sound uppity here but when I was teaching it just seemed like the students wanted to find the easiest way out. I think good photography is just like woodturning. The more you learn about the basics the better you will be.
 
Understand that Photoshop can also make a great photo horrible. True, it is another tool in the bag, but should not be relied on to fix all the problems any more than more time in the darkroom might have fixed a poor negative. (Ahh, I fondly remember those times).

In this case though, even though you can usually see where the camera has picked as the focus in an autofocus situtation (usually a spot on the LCD showing the point of focus) you need a camera that has the ability to truely manually focus with some precision.

Go to the manufacturers website, download the manual and get to know the camera before you buy it. Read reviews (DPREVIEW.COM is a great site) and see what you are getting before buying.

There are some great buys on digital SLRs out there even if they don't have the highest megapixels anymore. For what you are doing, 10MP is more than enough and less expensive area to start with.
 
john lucas said:
MM I'll try to explain it. Lets say you have a bowl 4 feet from the light and the back ground is 5.6 feet from the light. If you measure the light you will have a 1 fstop fall off from the bowl to the background. (I picked numbers that match f stop numbers for a reason)
Now move the light back to 8 feet from the bowl. For the light to be 1 fstop darker on the back ground it would have to be 11 feet from the bowl. However we didn't move anything so the background is only 9.6 feet from the bowl. Consequently the back ground would only be about 1/2 an f stop darker than the bowl.
You already know I'm lousy at math but I've used this technique many times to change the lighting. I used the example of a back ground but the sides of a light box function the same only they are reflecting light back into the piece.
Click to expand...

Still not following. If the light source is from the front and bounced in the box, the ratio of light falling on the highlight and shadow would remain the same. If the source is outside of the box and diffused thrugh the sides, moving the highlight farther out while leaving the background lighting the same would change the ratio as you say.

Never done it the way you mention, probably because of the mental block I'm having now, nor have I seen it mentioned elsewhere. Used to do a lot of photography, and I can tell you with the proper lighting and a tilt-back view camera you can give a Lebanese a pug nose. Kept that family's portraits in my portfolio, you can bet.
 
Canon S90 is a huge improvement over S30

Odie - you asked a rather straight forward question and have received a bunch of "sage" advice about learning photogaraphy before you try to take pictures of your turnings and gee whiz, leave photography to the professionals. And, you have seen that experienced photographers can disagree on almost anything. BTW, my old man can whip their old man!! 🙂

However, that is not what you asked. 1) You asked if the S90 will allow you to take better images of your turnings. (without going to photography school!)

2) You asked if you might have better control over color rendition.

3)And you asked if you might have better luck in getting all of you turning in focus in the same image.

1) The S90 is a major improvement over the earlier S30. From my perspective, the fact that it allows substantial, easy manual adjustments of aperture and shutter speed allows all of the flexibility of a manual camera in addition to the ease of an auto camera. See this review:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/s90.htm

2) All of the auto cameras tend to allow you to play with color balance. Read the camera manual and have some fun seeing what happens. (You'll find that you can even make yellow images of walnut!) Remember that the nature of lighting (sunlight, fluorescent, incandescent, electronic flash...) impact the color rendition. I have a mahogany ladies dressing table which I stained with "medium brown" aniline dye. To the naked eye, it is brown. If I am not very careful with lighting, my images of it are very very red.

3) As to depth of field: For any given lens (remember that most pocket cameras have a zoom, so lots of potential lenses), the aperture setting controls the depth of field, or the range of distances within the image that are in reasonable focus. Small apertures (high f/ numbers like 11, 16, or 22) assure maximum depth of field but require a lot of light, while larger apertures (low f/ numbers like 4.5) limit the depth of field, but require less light. When shooting any small object, such as a turning, you would like a small aperture for good in-focus range, but that implies the need for a lot of light. You can add light by slowing the shutter speed or using artificial lighting. Since one can't really hand hold an exposure slower than 1/30 sec., you are either forced into a tripod, or flash, or stand lights, or light box, or all of the above.

Unfortunately, some point and shoot cameras do not allow you to easily go into full manual mode. However the S90 allows this and this is one of its strong points. Go for it - just like tools, one cannot have too many cameras.

Photography is kind of like learning to use a skew or gouge - practice, practice, practice. Fortunately, digital images are cheap to develop!🙂

Jerry
 
I don't keep up with all the new cameras so I can't really answer any questions about how one camera relates to another. There are just simply too many out there.
speaking of DOF. The image sensor size also affects DOF. I remember in the early 70's I got my hands on a half frame camera. It had a lot more DOF at any given aperture than my full frame camera. I suppose the same is true for digital cameras. Probably to a lesser degree with the various sizes of small sensors but would apply when comparing a full frame sensor like on my D700 to the smaller sensor on my D2.
MM I was talking about having the light outside the booth and shooting through the sides. When you bounce a light into the booth from the front you don't have as much control. Having the light outside the booth you can move it anywhere you want and can put things between the light and walls of the booth to change it. I frequently use wire screen between the light and the piece I'm photographing to soften highlight areas. I also will shade the light hitting the background to make it darker. That's hard to do with the light in the front.
 
Haven't gotten to all these posts yet.....gotta run this morning.....so, will have to get back later.

I am using the timer.

I am using a tri-pod.

still absorbing some of this input........

Still don't want to spend effort "studying up"......I intend to do some experimenting, and find what works......plan to go from there. I can appreciate those of you who have put a lot of effort in knowing all the particulars, but it sure seems to me that once you find what works, and the demonstration I saw, certainly gives "depth of field" that I had not been able to get previously.......once you find the correct methods of getting the results......that can be duplicated, over and over.......no matter how much knowledge you have.

What I'd like to know is if the S90 Canon camera suits the needs of those who have them, and have similar needs.

thank you

ooc
 
Robert Manning said:
Odie, I agree with Bill on this. In addition to the tripod, I would suggest using the self timer without touching the camera so you don't get camera movement. I would also try to maximize your skills with your existing camera. Shoot some test shots at different zoom settings moving the camera forward or back to compose your frame. You might find that the camera is not sharp at the maximum or minimum zoom. If so, you can work around that problem, but you need to take test shots to find out your camera's limitations. I have one camera that shoots sharpest at almost full zoom.

You will always have to fool around with the lighting positions on each unique form no matter how much you spend on the camera.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Robert.....

Yes......I guess you are right about having to adjust lighting to specific bowl shapes. Makes sense.

I probably have taken bowl photos with the Canon S30 on just about every imaginable way.......I've never found the right combination. I know from the example I've seen at the retail store, that I can get better depth of field with a newer camera. This S30 is clearly not as good......I'm willing to spend the money to upgrade.

thanks

ooc
 
Gretch Flo said:
Odie-I am in the same boat as you. I have a neighbor who has become a friend and really into photography. I took a course but had Pt and shoot for the first cass. The neighbor loaned me an extra Canon (digital SLR). ended I up buying one on ebay (Rebel Xti)-4-5 weeks ago. and then getting a macro zoom (70-300), and finally an el cheapo tripod from walmart. Going to set up booth in my son's (just left from school break) bedroom. Just learning how to shoot it on semi auto-mostly birds and tree frogs so far. After this week end company and craft show I am doing to set up the wood shooting "studio". Maybe some day all this photoing stuff you pros have been talking about will make sense!!!! I am learning-albeit slowly!!! Gretch
Click to expand...

Good luck, Gretch.....

From what I've gathered, SLR isn't necessary, but certainly wouldn't be a handicap.

ooc
 
Gary Chapman said:
I find a so so photo can be made terrific by using your photo shop software. I have produced many very good shots from poor exposures.
A good camera is nice but learning to use photo shop for me is even better. My two cents. Gary
Click to expand...



I'm using a JASC paint shop photo album. This is as old as my S30 camera.......plan to upgrade to a newer photo album/editor when I get the new camera.

ooc
 
john lucas said:
I quit teaching photography because every question they asked was either , I can do that in photoshop, or how do I do that in photoshop. You should always try to get the best photo you can first. I realize photoshop is very powerful and you can get away with a lot. I still stick by my assertion that you should do all you can to get the best shot first, then if necessary alter it in photoshop.
there are times when, due to time constraints, that I shoot things less than optimal and correct them in photoshop. That's the life of a University Photographer. There are also times when a few more minutes improving the image will save huge amounts of time in photoshop. You have to know when to draw the line.
Not meaning to sound uppity here but when I was teaching it just seemed like the students wanted to find the easiest way out. I think good photography is just like woodturning. The more you learn about the basics the better you will be.
Click to expand...

From my un-educated perspective, I'd say there is a lot of truth in what you say, John.

The only thing I'll add is it seems to me that once you find what works for one particular shot you intend to do over and over......well, the guesswork/calculations then ends.

ooc
 
Steve Worcester said:
Understand that Photoshop can also make a great photo horrible. True, it is another tool in the bag, but should not be relied on to fix all the problems any more than more time in the darkroom might have fixed a poor negative. (Ahh, I fondly remember those times).

In this case though, even though you can usually see where the camera has picked as the focus in an autofocus situtation (usually a spot on the LCD showing the point of focus) you need a camera that has the ability to truely manually focus with some precision.

Go to the manufacturers website, download the manual and get to know the camera before you buy it. Read reviews (DPREVIEW.COM is a great site) and see what you are getting before buying.

There are some great buys on digital SLRs out there even if they don't have the highest megapixels anymore. For what you are doing, 10MP is more than enough and less expensive area to start with.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link, Steve......

Although I'm not very knowledgeable about cameras, the review you linked to:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canons90/

.....seems to be very positive.

I've read a couple of other reviews, and they seem very positive, as well.

ooc
 
steelguy said:
Odie - you asked a rather straight forward question and have received a bunch of "sage" advice about learning photogaraphy before you try to take pictures of your turnings and gee whiz, leave photography to the professionals. And, you have seen that experienced photographers can disagree on almost anything. BTW, my old man can whip their old man!! 🙂

However, that is not what you asked. 1) You asked if the S90 will allow you to take better images of your turnings. (without going to photography school!)

2) You asked if you might have better control over color rendition.

3)And you asked if you might have better luck in getting all of you turning in focus in the same image.

1) The S90 is a major improvement over the earlier S30. From my perspective, the fact that it allows substantial, easy manual adjustments of aperture and shutter speed allows all of the flexibility of a manual camera in addition to the ease of an auto camera. See this review:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/s90.htm

2) All of the auto cameras tend to allow you to play with color balance. Read the camera manual and have some fun seeing what happens. (You'll find that you can even make yellow images of walnut!) Remember that the nature of lighting (sunlight, fluorescent, incandescent, electronic flash...) impact the color rendition. I have a mahogany ladies dressing table which I stained with "medium brown" aniline dye. To the naked eye, it is brown. If I am not very careful with lighting, my images of it are very very red.

3) As to depth of field: For any given lens (remember that most pocket cameras have a zoom, so lots of potential lenses), the aperture setting controls the depth of field, or the range of distances within the image that are in reasonable focus. Small apertures (high f/ numbers like 11, 16, or 22) assure maximum depth of field but require a lot of light, while larger apertures (low f/ numbers like 4.5) limit the depth of field, but require less light. When shooting any small object, such as a turning, you would like a small aperture for good in-focus range, but that implies the need for a lot of light. You can add light by slowing the shutter speed or using artificial lighting. Since one can't really hand hold an exposure slower than 1/30 sec., you are either forced into a tripod, or flash, or stand lights, or light box, or all of the above.

Unfortunately, some point and shoot cameras do not allow you to easily go into full manual mode. However the S90 allows this and this is one of its strong points. Go for it - just like tools, one cannot have too many cameras.

Photography is kind of like learning to use a skew or gouge - practice, practice, practice. Fortunately, digital images are cheap to develop!🙂

Jerry
Click to expand...

Wow!

Thanks for your extra effort in your post, Jerry! That review you linked to is very extensive......much more information than the other reviews.....and also very positive for the new S90 Canon camera, like the others. I'm beginning to feel very comfortable about making the purchase of this camera.

Your input to this thread is very much appreciated.

Yes......you are right.......I don't intend to become a professional photographer, but I do need to be able to get good photos that I can duplicate over and over again.

Thanks again.........

ooc
 
You are welcome

Odie - you are most welcome. When you get your new camera, send a wide angle shot of the Great Northwestern Territory. Must be a cannonball or musketball in there somewhere!!

Jerry
 
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