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Can I use hardened steel to make a bedan?

Robin Thompson

Robin Thompson

Joined
May 19, 2011
Messages
92
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18
Location
Sarnia, Ontario
Located in Whitehorse, Yukon I do not have access to HSS. The best I can come up with is hardened steel (used for keystock). 1/2" X 1/2" and comes in lengths up to 20'. So I purchased some and cut a 12" length, cleaned the surface a bit and ground an angle to about 35 degrees. It doesn't sharpen very well but I got is so it would cut. Shortly after starting to cut the corners broke off the cutting edge. I thought this might happen but figured I would give it a shot. Not being a metal worker I am wondering if I should scrap the idea of using this stock or treat the hardened steel in some fashion so it is not so brittle. What are your thoughts?
 
Yes Hockenbery, I can find directions whereby I harden and temper. I'm just thinking if it is already hardened I should just have to temper it. I guess that is what your suggesting.
 
There are all kinds of key stock. Low, medium, and high carbon. Followed by varies other alloys. I'm curious about your grinding technique? Do you grind and then quench in water to cool the steel? That along will cause cracking and fracture lines in the steel. Over heating and then quenching will make high carbon steel very brittle. Just plain overheating in the grinding process changes carbon steel dramatically. With no metallurgical background, I'm curious what you hoped to achieve that mail ordering even a cheap HSS tool from Amazon would not have worked better.
 
There is a video on the internet of a qvc host demonstrating the durability of a sword. It promptly shatters and a piece stabs him in the arm. Be careful with hardened steel. John Lucas has a good article in American Woodturner Spring 2001 volume 16:1. that does a good job outlining the tempering and annealing process that must be done to make the metal less brittle.
 
Short answer. If you hardened it by heating and quenching you need to temper it. Just put it in your oven at 325 degrees for 1/2 hour per 1/4" of thickness. Then just turn the oven off and let it cool. That should leave it somewhere around the hardness of most turning tools but will take away the brittleness. If the steel you used was not high carbon steel.it may never be very good at holding an edge but look how much you will.learn by all the frequent sharpenings.
If you are an AAW member look up that article. I designed it to be a simple.way to anneal, heat treat, and then temper high carbon steel.
 
john lucas said:
Short answer. If you hardened it by heating and quenching you need to temper it. Just put it in your oven at 325 degrees for 1/2 hour per 1/4" of thickness. Then just turn the oven off and let it cool. That should leave it somewhere around the hardness of most turning tools but will take away the brittleness. If the steel you used was not high carbon steel.it may never be very good at holding an edge but look how much you will.learn by all the frequent sharpenings.
If you are an AAW member look up that article. I designed it to be a simple.way to anneal, heat treat, and then temper high carbon steel.
Click to expand...
I just learned something new.!
 
Robin, I understand you have a challenging location for purchasing materials, but it seems like a Canadian hardware company which ships elsewhere would also ship to the Yukon. For example, here's some drill rod (HSS) at a Canadian supplier: https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/en/product/ROD-CARBON-STEEL-DRILL-1-2X36/p/VGD0401-1032
It may not be exactly what you're looking for, but there are various sizes from which to choose. Round rod is much cheaper than square cross section material due to the method of manufacture, and you might be better off grinding away some waste to achieve your square tool end. Hardening and tempering would be as described by John Lucas or in the tool making DVD put out by Alan Lacer.
 
It was already hardened. It was brittle for sure so I had to temper it simply following a You Tube video to the letter. It actually worked out quite well and I made a bedan. The brittleness is gone and it sharpens up nicely other than one minor issue. The stock is square but there is a very small radius on the corners which means it has to be ground flat on all four sides previous to sharpening otherwise it will not cut a clean corner. The whole process took about 45 minutes and included cutting the stock to the length I needed ( I cut it with a mini grinder to about 40 degrees.) Mounted in a vise, heated slowly with MAP starting about 2 1/2" back from the end to be sharpened until I got the color I wanted at the tip. I then immediately quenched in oil stirring until I was sure it was cool. Rough ground the business end on a regular grinder then finished up on CBN. I don't quench in water when sharpening but I make sure not to overheat the steel. Incidentally, I can purchase HSS if I order it but only in 4" lengths.
 
I don't know much about tool steel and have only worked with O1 tool steel which is reasonably easy to work with using a MAPP torch for annealing and for hardening and the kitchen oven for tempering. My impression about HSS tool steels is that the temperature and time for hardening, normalizing, and tempering are beyond the capability of the DIY'er. Here is a link with information about annealing, hardening, normalizing, and tempering M2 high speed tool steel: https://www.hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2
 
Trying to make a tool out of key stock is a bad Idea even if you learn all about hardening and tempering it still is not High Speed Steel.
Save your self time and frustration and just order the tool on line. If you want to work with a Canadian expert turner look up Mike Hosaluk he would be quite a ways south east of the Yukon.
 
Key stock is not even high carbon steel so even if you harden and temper it properly it still won't hold an edge.
 
There are a great many things people make when they have the option of buying, including wood turned items. I was trying this more out of interest than anything. I'm ok with the end result even though I may have to sharpen it more than I would like however; it was a learning experience and fun to try. Thanks for the input people.
 
You can always braze a piece of Tangtung tool steel onto the keystock or drill and tap a hole to attach a carbide cutter to one end.
 
Mike Johnson said:
You can always braze a piece of Tangtung tool steel onto the keystock or drill and tap a hole to attach a carbide cutter to one end.
Click to expand...

Tantung G is a nonferrous (no iron) alloy and a tiny piece is rather expensive. Welding it also isn't easily done.

The edge angle on a square carbide cutter is rather blunt for a bevel riding cut ... a bedan is used somewhat like a skew for certain operations and has a comparable included angle on the cutting edge.

Since the thread is about making your own bedan without ordering one it reminded me of something from many years ago. Jim King in Peru participated in various woodturning forums. He had a woodturning business using tropical trees from the Amazon rain forest. It was rather interesting to see the pictures of how his workers made improvised turning tools from whatever was available. I recall that an old automobile leaf spring was repurposed into something that sort of looked like a skew chisel. I think that their sharpening system was an old hand cranked millstone that wasn't exactly round.

I bought a bedan about 15 years ago when Jean-François Escoulen did a demo at our club. I rushed out and bought a bedan so that I could turn like him. I use the tool occasionally, but I don't see it as being essential unless doing the sort of turnings that Escoulen does. I'm still hoping to be able to turn like he does. :D
 
A Big Ugly Bedan is what you would call a piece Tangtung brazed onto a length of key-stock.
There are a multitude of carbides available to the metal machining industry and grinding them to a desired profile is a common practice.
 
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