Buy new or a quality old lathe

[Richn]

Folks, I have sold my Powermatic Mod 90, and I am ready to purchase a new lathe. My criteria has expanded to a longer bed lathe.

The purpose for a new lathe is to be able to make longer turnings that will be used for Bed spindles and colums for tables etc. I also want to turn bowls that would be about 16-18" max diameter. The new ones have extensions that you need to purchase. I want at least 48" Plus between centers. I have a liking for the older lathes that have made some of the finest turnings ever. A couple of lathes I was considering are as follows:

NEW PM 3520 with an 18" extension. Everyone seems to be high on this lathe and a no brainer.

Oliver 2159 with 72" between centers. This lathe was made in the 80's and has 16" swing and is also a pattern makers lathe, and weights in at about 900 lbs. This lathe came from a high school so it was not used much and is in excellent condition.

Oliver 25B with 72" between centers, This lathe is a pattern makers lathe and a monster, at 2500 pounds. This has a direct drive motor and was built during the 70's and has not been used very much. Other than the paint it is virtually new.

So should I be a consumer or give new life to an old machine. Does anyone have any knowledge on the two Olivers listed above?

 

[George Guadiane]

I have a PM 3520, and I LOVE it!
Either of the olivers could be GREAT. The things I use most on th Mustard Monster are the variable speed and REVERSE. Those two things make sanding and finishing MANY times better. If the Olivers don't have that and you don't think you will miss it, then go with the bigger one (unless it's more $ than the PM).
Find someone near you who has the PM, visit with them, see if you can turn something on it, THEN decide.

 

[KEW]

I'll be interested in hearing more opinions on this.
IMHO, if your interest is large spindles (or spindles period), the old machines are hard to beat.
The 3520 gets you:
1) Sliding headstock
2) EVS down to ~50rpm usable
3) Reversing direction
4) 20" swing

For most spindle turning, item 3 is the only one which may be relevant (I assume you are not turning over 12" diameter spindles), and if reversing matters to you I believe it is not hard to add a reversing switch on these machines (I had a friend who did this to his PM45 via $36 switch from Grainger and some direction from an older turner).

With the old machines, you have no concerns with a controller going out on you (the biggest reliability concern on a modern lathe) and I'd presume you're getting a pretty good price since there is not a big market for these old beasts.

I guess I'll ask you, "Did your PM90 have any shortcomings other than the length of the bed?"

It sounds like the old machines have lots of life left in them!

HTH!

 

[KurtB]

New Lathe Selection

Rich,
Just a couple of comments: don't forget that the big lathes also come with a big footprint, and if you have the room, maybe that's not a problem. But while you spend the bulk of your time turning shorter items, do you want to give up that extra floor space?

The second is that rarely does a table leg exceed 29-32". That just leaves the problem of bedposts. Many of the older bedposts were made on shorter lathes, they were simply sectioned and assembled with mortise and tenon joints hidden by various details in the design.

I recently bought the PM with the 18" extension, and 45" turnings are possible. If you section a bedpost at 24" off the floor, you can still have a tall postin the 69" range. Hope this helps with your decision.

KurtB

 

[Malcolm Smith]

The major concern with a second hand lathe is the condition of the bearings. I would at the very least find out if the bearings are still replaceable. Why are they selling the lathe?

Malcolm Smith.

 

[odie]

Here's a genuine Australian made Woodfast for $650 on ebay. I have this lathe, and it's top notch, all the way. I paid $2000 for mine in 1992. Clean this one up, and you'll have a lathe that's worth 3-4 times what you will pay for it!

otis of cologne

click:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230202625311&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013

 

[GeorgeH]

I try very hard not to complicate tool purchase decisions. I'd suggest you make a list of the "must have" features for the lathe you're looking for. Identify the new lathe(s) that meet that criteria. Then begin shopping for used lathe that also meets your criteria. At that point it's essentially a matter of price. In buying a used lathe I would suggest factoring in replacement of the bearings (whether they are know to be in need of replacement or not) as part of the purchase price. All things being equal, the numbers will make the decision for you. Shipping, handling, delivery charges are also important to the bottom line. The eBay item mentioned previously requires a trip to Arkansas. That's an expensive and length trip from my house.

 

[Richn]

I'm checking out the lathe Saturday

I will be going to the shop that has the Oliver Lathes and will be checking them out. The shop owner will have the Lathes completely functional and to specifications.... we will see.....

If you really look at it the finest furniture was made on these old lathes. I am a bit of a romantic on the old stuff, but the lure of the new powermatic is hard to beet.....considering my wife will let me spend the $$ to get it....ah but the romantic thought of old iron....turning on machines that have made the really old stuff that is saught after as fine antiques.

Okay, I woke up....I will let you know the finding when I report back Saturday night.

Rich

 

[Brian Myers]

I will be going to the shop that has the Oliver Lathes and will be checking them out. The shop owner will have the Lathes completely functional and to specifications.... we will see.....

If you really look at it the finest furniture was made on these old lathes. I am a bit of a romantic on the old stuff, but the lure of the new powermatic is hard to beet.....considering my wife will let me spend the $$ to get it....ah but the romantic thought of old iron....turning on machines that have made the really old stuff that is saught after as fine antiques.

Okay, I woke up....I will let you know the finding when I report back Saturday night.

Rich

Rich,
For info on the Olivers head over to http://www.owwm.org/viewforum.php?f=1
They can help you with info them. George Hoelzeman who goes by Monastic Father has a 25B and can help you out with questions. Rember that the large pattern makers lathes have very large spindles (something like 1 7/8" dia.) so having custom made spindle adapters to be able to use modern chucks will be a must. That said you won`t be able to beat the stability in an Oliver 25 series lathe. The motor will most likely be 3 phase so a phase converter will also be needed unless you have 3 phase power. The old lathes take time and money to get up to speed but if you need a large lathe I don`t think you will be disappointed. And yes if you can read between the lines owning an Oliver 25C or Putnum gap bed is a dream of mine.:cool2:
Brian

 

[Malcolm Smith]

If you're making a list of the refered to 'must have features', one that is very important is how well the tailstock lines up with the headstock. I gather you do mostly spindle turning but if you plan to turn bowls, this, to my mind, is very critical. Most of the inexpensive rotating head lathes are really spindle lathes and the head rarely lines up correctly. The Oneway 2436 I use is perfect in this regard. Thank you Oneway. Clearly they took a lot of trouble over this and it probably is one of the reasons it doesn't have a rotating head. Another important consideration is the range of speeds offered. For bowl turning, it's important to have good torque at slow speeds. I would say that it is also important to be able to reverse the lathe. On the Oneway lathes one can turn inboard or outboard by reversing the motor. The outboard thread is the same as the inboard. In the case of Oneway, the chucks, if you use theirs are locked on the lathe with set screws, essential for reverse turning anything of size.

Malcolm Smith.

 

[GA Darling]

The major concern with a second hand lathe is the condition of the bearings. I would at the very least find out if the bearings are still replaceable. Why are they selling the lathe?

Malcolm Smith.

I just wanted to toss this in here.
Being a maintenance tech for the last 30 years has taught me that any bearing out there can be replaced no matter the size or construction if you look hard enough. That being said, be prepared to pay some bucks if the bearings are hard to find. You my have to go beyond the normal outlets that sell bearings but you can get them.

GA Darling

 

[Jake Debski]

Quote:>
Originally Posted by Malcolm Smith View Post
The major concern with a second hand lathe is the condition of the bearings. I would at the very least find out if the bearings are still replaceable. Why are they selling the lathe?

Malcolm Smith.<quote

I just wanted to toss this in here.
Being a maintenance tech for the last 30 years has taught me that any bearing out there can be replaced no matter the size or constrction if you look hard enough. That being said, be prepared to pay some bucks if the bearings are hard to find. You my have to go beyond the normal outlets that sell bearings but you can get them.

GA Darling

It boils down to how much time are you willing to spend searching for these parts. Bearings can be the easy part compared to other broken or worn assemblies. I for one have limited turning time, I wouldn't want to waste it(time) searching for bits and pieces or worse having some machine shop making replacements.

 

[GA Darling]

Quote:>
Originally Posted by Malcolm Smith View Post
The major concern with a second hand lathe is the condition of the bearings. I would at the very least find out if the bearings are still replaceable. Why are they selling the lathe?

Malcolm Smith.<quote



It boils down to how much time are you willing to spend searching for these parts. Bearings can be the easy part compared to other broken or worn assemblies. I for one have limited turning time, I wouldn't want to waste it(time) searching for bits and pieces or worse having some machine shop making replacements.

I guess it depends on whether you want it now or if you want to recondition a lathe that is 3 - 4 times anything you can buy today.

GA Darling

 

[Richn]

Buy new or old lathe?

Well folks, I went to the shop that has the two olivers. Oh MY GOD!!!! The Oliver 25B was an impressive size and if in my shop will take up a bit of room. The base at the head unit must be 30" square and the tail is normal cast legs. the total lenth is 8' and the C to C is 62" The motor is a 4 speed that can be set up for several ranges. The unit is in great shape with the exception of paint. There is an hour meter on the head stock and it reads 674 hours. The head unit has a 2 hp motor and the spindle size is 1 1/2" with MT4, he will throw in the MT4 to MT2 adapter. The swing is 16" and he has plates for sale that will take it to 20". The carriage for the pattern makers tool rest is very accurate and can move with ease. This is great for spindle work as you move the tool rest on the gears and track and will not bang into the piece, which I have done on an occasion near the end of a peice and nicked the square stock, ( I hate when that happens). The carriage also has metal turning pieces so I can also do any metal or plastic turnings for the various reasons that that would happen. The beast weighs in at 2,000 lbs and will not move regardless of the balance of the piece you are turning. I will put a VFD on the unit so I can run forward, backward and any speed. The neighbors will think I'm nutz when I put this in the garage. All this for only $1,000. I will do the paint and the fixing of the undiscovered issues, plus a VFD, at $400, I figure I can have a good operating monster for about $1,500. Not bad, so what do I save, $1,100 over a Powermatic, $2,200 over an Oliver (which would be sweet). And I get a lathe that will not move, or vibrate, period!!!!! Hmmmmmmmmmmm......There is more, I will be working on a unit and be out of my wifes hair....This has bonus points.

After seeing the 25B the Oliver 2159 looked like it was made of sticks. Although a good lathe and at 900 lbs was not as impressive by mass as the 25B. This really distorts the minds eye,,,,,,so what does Richie really want/need/etc?????? The next test will be me going back to turn on both units.

Momma always said, this is not rehearsal for life,,,,,,,,,,,this is it!!!!! So do what is right and enjoy every second, even the painfull ones.

Rich

 

[KEW]

Sounds excellent!

If you have the space and means to move it at reasonable cost, I don't see how you could not get it.

A lathe like that would have to be severely abused to show any impact to it's performance. Did the seller offer any history on it? It is hard to believe a company spent the bucks for it and didn't put any more hours than that on it.

Keep us posted. The idea of going to someones home and seeing a beast like that in their shop is just wrong (in a good way)!

 

[jdsilwones]

Rich, be aware that older motors can be damaged by a VFD. If the old one fails look for one with the same frame size and "inverter duty" or VFD rated.
Best of luck and get us some pics!

 

[Richn]

Insight on old motor and history of the Oliver 25B

The Lathe came from the Phila Navy yard and has been only used to creat patterns for the ships that the Phila Navy yard restored. THe good news is that it was NOT a production lathe with thousands of hours. The hour meter indicated 674 hours.

Regarding old motors, it is note worthy to think that a VFD might damage the motor, and needs more research.

Finding another motor is not as easy as you might think. This motor has tapered roller bearings because the lathe has lateral pressure because it is a lathe. The spindle is also the shaft of the motor, and as such is threaded and hollow through the shaft for obvious reasons.

Folks that I have talked to say they have never heard of this motor burning out and thie item of concern would be old wire.

Here is a link for what the lathe looks like:

http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=415

Wish me luck.

 

[GA Darling]

You might be able to turn a couple of pens or key chains on that with out burning up the motor. For that matter you could badly abuse that monster and never hurt it.

GA Darling

 

[jdsilwones]

watch out

Sorry Rich, but my advice is not to purchase this lathe unless you plan to use it as is and even then I think you would quickly outgrow it. Save you money and look for a deal on something newer, designed for variable speed and with a motor that wont be a nightmare if there is a problem. How does this lathe change speed if it is direct drive? An old system they used had a motor driven frequency converter that was often twice as large as the motor it controlled! I know you are in love but be careful here.
Good luck.

 

[dkulze]

You sure that hour meter hasn't turned over once or twice?

I've been watching the thread and have to throw in that, though it sounds like a truly awsome machine, I'd consider getting a much newer and more versatile machine. May cost more but you know exactly what you've got, it will need no modification, and you're set if there are any problems. Plus, 900lbs is plenty for a thoughtful turner, and I've seen a 2000lb machine run across a room and take out a support column when not used carefully.

If you're into using classic, reconditioned tools, the Oliver is your machine. Otherwise, I'd side with JD.

dk

P.S.(all that said, the Oliver has a much higher KOOL factor. MUCH higher)

 

[Richn]

Oliver 25 modifications

Thanks for the warning. Currently the speed changes via a switch that connects different windings that are used to change to the desired speed. I am looking into a different head unit that will address the age and repairability issue. Wed, I hope to get the call that the vendor will sell me a new head unit for the lathe, so there will be no issue.

Always thinking of a way around trouble.:cool2::cool2:

 

[Dann Chapman]

eBay concern

Here's a genuine Australian made Woodfast for $650 on ebay....

The techies where I work are saying to stay away from eBay, that it's become a hot bed of identity theft. FWIW