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burl or not

Richard Avram

Richard Avram

Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
93
Likes
74
Location
Michigan
My neighbor took down a dead tree that was totally dried out to the point that the bark had already come off. I was cutting it up for firewood when I noticed a piece that I thought was worthy of turning. It turns out that it was a gem and the grain is unbelievable. My question is, if you find grain in the middle of the tree that has all the characteristics of a burl, is it a burl or does a burl have to be a growth on the outside of the tree. It has swirls and curly grain as well as voids.
 
does it have eyes??????????
 
I'm not sure if you would call this eyes or not. Is there some place other that the gallery that I can post a picture? The whole thing has a three dimensional look to it like it has valleys.
 
Richard Avram said:
I'm not sure if you would call this eyes or not. Is there some place other that the gallery that I can post a picture? The whole thing has a three dimensional look to it like it has valleys.
Click to expand...

It may be where there was a tree branch that died and then grew over.
 
you can post in this thread

do your dialoge, then scroll down to manage attachments, it has size limits, but are pretty much the same as gallery

not sure when the gallery is going to be up again
 
Here is the picture of what I found and while I'm at it, how about a little help with what kind of finish would make the grain pattern stand out the best.
 

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Finishing Suggestion

I've finished a lot of burls and curly grain. I would use a danish oil or some other type of drying oil that will let you put whatever you want over top for a final finish. I use Bush brand oil which is a thicker version of Danish oil and have had no problem putting other finishes over it. The oil will really make the grain pop and when it dries will help seal the wood for poly, laquer, or just buff and wax. I'd recommend 2-3 coats of the oil if you are only going to buff and wax. Give it about a week after the final oil coat for the oil to fully cure before the final finish or buffing. Looking forward to seeing the final product!
 
Very beautiful wood. That is not burl, but it is beautiful highly figured wood. If it were me, I would gently wipe on some lightly tinted aniline dye and sand it lightly and finish with several coats of spray lacquer. If you are familiar with the dyeing techniques that Jimmie Clewes uses in some of his videos, that is what I would shoot for or even something lighter. If you do not wish to do any dyeing, then the lacquer finish would still be my recommendation. Use very fine sandpaper and Micromesh to level the lacquer after about two or three coats before shooting more coats.
 
JeffB said:
I've finished a lot of burls and curly grain. I would use a danish oil or some other type of drying oil that will let you put whatever you want over top for a final finish. I use Bush brand oil which is a thicker version of Danish oil and have had no problem putting other finishes over it. The oil will really make the grain pop and when it dries will help seal the wood for poly, laquer, or just buff and wax. I'd recommend 2-3 coats of the oil if you are only going to buff and wax. Give it about a week after the final oil coat for the oil to fully cure before the final finish or buffing. Looking forward to seeing the final product!
Click to expand...
Will boiled linseed oil give the same results?
 
Bill Boehme said:
Very beautiful wood. That is not burl, but it is beautiful highly figured wood. If it were me, I would gently wipe on some lightly tinted aniline dye and sand it lightly and finish with several coats of spray lacquer. If you are familiar with the dyeing techniques that Jimmie Clewes uses in some of his videos, that is what I would shoot for or even something lighter. If you do not wish to do any dyeing, then the lacquer finish would still be my recommendation. Use very fine sandpaper and Micromesh to level the lacquer after about two or three coats before shooting more coats.
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Thanks Bill, give me a little help with the term micromesh, I've never used it. Are we talking steel wool?
 
Richard Avram said:
Thanks Bill, give me a little help with the term micromesh, I've never used it. Are we talking steel wool?
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Basically it is a type of abrasive. It is usually considered to last longer than sandpaper and is usually in the form of sponges with abrasive attached. Usually used for pens or acrylics. Goes up to about 20,000 grit and maybe higher.
You can even use it to polish the faceshield to get scratches out.
 
I first learned about Micromesh about 20 years ago where it was used to polish out scratches on aircraft windshields. It is a silicon carbide abrasive in a rubber matrix on fine cloth backing. It is also available with the cloth bonded onto a stiff but flexible closed cell foam backing -- not sponge which would be a soft open cell foam. Since then, it is being used in a great many applications. The grits that are sold for use on wood start at 1500 which is about the same as P400 grit sandpaper and goes all the way up to 12,000 grit which will give a very highly polished finish where the scratch marks are well beyond the resolution of the human eye. You can buy it with or without the foam backing. I buy it at Rockler Hardware since they have a store just a few miles from me. I usually get the package of double sided foam backed grits that cover the range of 1500 to 12,000 for about $20. The stuff lasts a very long time. When it gets dirty it can be washed. I think that it works better when wet, but of course you need to have the wood thoroughly waterproofed with lacquer before you do wet sanding.
 
In my opinion, any kind of oil will pop the grain. Yes, those that dry can have another type of finish applied on top, I would go with a wax. Nice find.
 
Bill Boehme said:
I first learned about Micromesh about 20 years ago where it was used to polish out scratches on aircraft windshields. It is a silicon carbide abrasive in a rubber matrix on fine cloth backing. It is also available with the cloth bonded onto a stiff but flexible closed cell foam backing -- not sponge which would be a soft open cell foam. Since then, it is being used in a great many applications. The grits that are sold for use on wood start at 1500 which is about the same as P400 grit sandpaper and goes all the way up to 12,000 grit which will give a very highly polished finish where the scratch marks are well beyond the resolution of the human eye. You can buy it with or without the foam backing. I buy it at Rockler Hardware since they have a store just a few miles from me. I usually get the package of double sided foam backed grits that cover the range of 1500 to 12,000 for about $20. The stuff lasts a very long time. When it gets dirty it can be washed. I think that it works better when wet, but of course you need to have the wood thoroughly waterproofed with lacquer before you do wet sanding.
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Thanks Bill, I have been looking at it on Craft Supply and I am definitely going to try it. I have never had good luck using sandpaper no matter what the grit and I have deferred to using "0000" steel wool with good results but it can be a pain to make sure all of the fibers are removed. From the sound of it this is a much better option. And thanks to everyone else who has pitched in here, I really appreciate it. You couldn't put a price tag on what it means to have this kind of expertise at your fingertips by just asking.
 
Micro mesh is usually used as a step beyond sandpaper. Sand to 400 or600 and then go through the micro mesh. I have found 4/0 steel woo to be equal to about 1500 grit sand paper. Do t know where that fits into the micro mesh.
I often use the dye method to make grain pop. Sand to 400 grit the. Apply a light dye. The. Sand lightly to remove any dye from areas where it doesn't penetrate then sand to the fine grits and apply you favorite finish.
 
.Hi All,
As to whether it is burl or not: My understanding burl is an abnormal growth, like a cancer or tumor. Some will argue that burl that has to grow below ground level. But, I have seen lace burl grow in redwood trees hanging from branches. Some will also argue that burl has to have pins or lace.

I would call the examples you provided swirly grains
 
Thanks everyone for all the input but now I have a new question. As I said, the tree was totally dead and dried out to the point of a lot of it being spalted so I wasn't expecting much movement in it. Even so, I roughed the bowl in and gave it a couple of days to see if there was any movement and there wasn't so I finished turned it and sanded it. Now a couple of days later there is movement along the grain patterns to the point of the bowl having a wavy feel to it. Personally I don't think it takes anything away from the bowl but does it change the way that I should go about finishing it?
 
Richard,
The wood was not dry.
The ripple surface comes from the wood shrinking and not shrinking along the grain patterns.
This happens a lot with burls btw and other figured woods also with punky wood.

If you sand after it is dry. You will get a smooth surface.
In certain pieces I go for the ripple surface.

Al
 
The reason that the wood is wavy is that there are a lot of internal stresses in the wood. When the surrounding wood is turned away there is no longer anything to constrain the stresses from relaxing, so moving will happen. If the tree was large it might take well over a decade to dry.

One way to minimize the amount of warping is to turn it in stages. Rough it out fairly thick and let it dry for a while. Turn it to true up the shape and let it rest a while, etc. You will eventually reach a point where you are satisfied with just a minimal amount of warp or there is not enough wood left to continue the process. Generally these two endpoints wind up being the same.
 
I think I am going to have to go with the wavy look on this one because I'm at a point where it is to hard to go back. I already have it turned to a finish size and the feet are carved on the bottom. Besides, I think it just might be one of those pieces that will strike somebody's fancy. For sure, not everybody likes that warped look but still, some people do. I still have a lot of that tree to cut up so hopefully I can find a few more pieces like that and I can use what I learned here to do it a little differently. Thanks everybody, you are what makes this forum great!
 
Happy thanksgiving,

When I double turn bowls I plan on 4-6 months minimum for the wood to dry and I check with a moisture meter.
Weighing until it looses no weight in 2 weeks works well too.

In most woods I don't see a lot of movement in few days in bowls left 1-1.5" thick for returning.

Mostly I single turn hollow forms and some natural edge bowls. These have wall thickness less than 1/4 thick and will dry in 2-4 days. The movement varies and is often more in thinner walled pieces.
A 1/8" wall bowl dries faster than a 1/4" wall. I have done some 1/2" wall bowls in a single turn but they take several month to dry.

Below are two pictures of a small bowl turned from wet madrone wall thickness around 1/8" right after it came off the lathe and 24 hours later.
Cool material. It shows the wood movement from the shrinkage and the ripple of the surface.
Could be some stress movement too but that usually shows up when turning to some degree.

Madrone moves a lot while drying.

Al
 

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hockenbery said:
.....The ripple surface comes from the wood shrinking and not shrinking along the grain patterns....
Click to expand...

Or over sanding, where the early wood and late wood in the rings have different densities and the sandpaper removes more material in the soft parts tan the hard portion.

But if it wasn't apparent when completed, then it is attributed to the drying.
 
lacquer

Richard I gave lacquer a frustrating "go" for 3 months on various dyed pieces. What a pain!!!!!You really have so many variables that you need to be experienced!!! I gave up and used Deft Danish oils fairly successfully. As mentioned, the sanding with micromesh is helpful as dying brings out every little scratch!!!!! I am better at that now, Gretch
 
I finished up the bowl today. Since the gallery still isn't working I'll post the pics here.
 

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Bill Boehme said:
Beautiful. How did you decide to finish it?
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I used the boiled linseed oil and then lacquer for a top coat. I used several coats of lacquer and then buffed with the micro mesh which worked great. I had never heard of that before so thanks for the info and I will definitely try it again. I still have a lot of that log left to cut up so I'm hoping to find some more great pieces.
 
figured piece

Just gorgeous!!!!! The waviness gives the extra 3 dimension. I would not want to re turn it as I like that effect!!!!!
Hope there are more pieces in the log. I cut some wood from a friend (tiger maple) and where the flare of the base of the tree was, there was beautiful figure (flame?) , but disappeared on the inside , and only in one piece that I made 2 small trays. Gretch
 
Gretch Flo said:
Just gorgeous!!!!! The waviness gives the extra 3 dimension. I would not want to re turn it as I like that effect!!!!!
Hope there are more pieces in the log. I cut some wood from a friend (tiger maple) and where the flare of the base of the tree was, there was beautiful figure (flame?) , but disappeared on the inside , and only in one piece that I made 2 small trays. Gretch
Click to expand...
The three dimensional look actually doesn't come from the little amount of waviness that you can feel. It's an effect of the grain in the wood and even before the bowl moved a little and gave it the wavy feel you could already see the ridges and valleys. Sometimes when you look at it just right it looks like you could stick your finger right down in the valleys and then it's a surprise when you touch it and it's flat. I decided against trying to return it, one because it would have been so difficult and two because I really don't think the feel takes anything away from the piece. My wife, who is usually a pretty good judge, says that it just gives it more character.
 
Chatoyance - Word for they day - describes the effects of the grain reflecting light in different directions.
May be used in conversation to add dollars to the value when a customer is alerted to the chatoyance.
 
hockenbery said:
Chatoyance - Word for they day - describes the effects of the grain reflecting light in different directions.
May be used in conversation to add dollars to the value when a customer is alerted to the chatoyance.
Click to expand...
🙂 I will definitely keep that in mind. That is actually one of my biggest questions right now, what kind of dollar figure do you put on a bowl like that. It's always hard for me to price my work and this one is especially hard. I don't want to give it away but I don't want to over price it either.
 
hockenbery said:
Chatoyance - Word for they day - describes the effects of the grain reflecting light in different directions.
May be used in conversation to add dollars to the value when a customer is alerted to the chatoyance.
Click to expand...

It comes from the French word meaning "eye of the cat". I am currently working on a maple platter with incredible chatoyance even before sanding smooth. I will get a picture after I dye it and put a spray lacquer finish on it. I have less than a week to get it done and we are having freezing weather. It is going to be a challenge.

Richard Avram said:
🙂 I will definitely keep that in mind. That is actually one of my biggest questions right now, what kind of dollar figure do you put on a bowl like that. It's always hard for me to price my work and this one is especially hard. I don't want to give it away but I don't want to over price it either.
Click to expand...

Whatever someone is willing to pay and whatever you are willing to sell it for. 😀

That may not be as clear an answer as you would like, but that is about as good an answer as you may get.
 
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