building a vacuum chuck, which cap for a Thomas 2660?

[Hu Lowery]

I was unable to contact frugal vacuum chucks by e-mail so I'm trying my hand at assembling a vacuum chuck. I found a Thomas 2660 vacuum pump, one of the pumps used in the frugal systems, but I may need the capacitor. Because I don't know the machine the surplus vacuum pump came out of, or any machine using them, I haven't been able to find a capacitor listed other than at a site that says one capacitor works for all of their vacuum pump motors. Some of their other statements seemed questionable so I'm not 100% comfortable with this claim.

Anyone have a Thomas 2660 vacuum pump with a factory or factory replacement capacitor? I would appreciate the full information for the capacitor or a picture showing it all. Hoping to just go to an appliance supply and match all the numbers since I'm pretty lost.

My vacuum pump is a Thomas 2660CE35111. 115 volts, 3.8A which I assume is 3.8 amps.

Thanks for any assistance!

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hu, you might want to contact Thomas. The model that you have seems to be either obsolete or a custom configuration. There is a series of 2660 pumps, but none of the numbers match yours. Here is the 2660 series data sheet: http://www.gd-thomas.com/workarea/downloadasset.aspx?id=1955

The 115 volt model shown used a 25 MFD capacitor, but it appears to be a bit bigger than yours, but the same capacitor might be fine. You will need to get the right type of capacitor. The motor is a PSC (permanent split capacitor) type which means that the capacitor is not a start capacitor. The capacitor on a PSC motor is in the circuit full time. PSC motors are used for applications where the starting torque is low -- HVAC blowers, fans, pumps, etc. A good source for this type capacitor is Grainger.

 

[Hu Lowery]

Thank You!

Hu, you might want to contact Thomas. The model that you have seems to be either obsolete or a custom configuration. There is a series of 2660 pumps, but none of the numbers match yours. Here is the 2660 series data sheet: http://www.gd-thomas.com/workarea/downloadasset.aspx?id=1955

The 115 volt model shown used a 25 MFD capacitor, but it appears to be a bit bigger than yours, but the same capacitor might be fine. You will need to get the right type of capacitor. The motor is a PSC (permanent split capacitor) type which means that the capacitor is not a start capacitor. The capacitor on a PSC motor is in the circuit full time. PSC motors are used for applications where the starting torque is low -- HVAC blowers, fans, pumps, etc. A good source for this type capacitor is Grainger.

Bill,

Thank You! I downloaded that data sheet so I have it for future reference too.

I knew this wasn't just a start capacitor but I seemed to remember capacitors that were just run capacitors and a start/run capacitor. That is why I was chasing a full set of numbers rather than just the main number. I know just enough about caps to get in trouble. I did try to contact Thomas, I'll have to see if they reply. They have been bought out by Gardner Denver and I'm not sure if they will bother responding to a question about something like this. There is a whole series of the 2660CE vacuum pumps. I can't remember if I saw it at Thomas or somewhere else but the 37 and 39 were supposed to have different strokes and progressively greater CFM instead of all just being later models like I had kinda assumed.

There is another line of 2660's too, I forget what designation they use instead of CE but these look the same but pull very low vacuum, about ten HG if I remember correctly. Rebuild kits do seem to be still easy to find for the 2660's and not very expensive. I'll check the vacuum on this one and if I like how it performs but the vacuum is not around 25 or 26 I'll buy a kit to put on the shelf for future reference. Around 20 HG seems to be adequate for cleaning up the bottom of bowls. I'm only about 250 feet above sea level but I know that will still cost me a little bit in vacuum pulled.

Thank you for the quick reply! I was pretty sure that I would hear from you first. One of us needs to learn how to sleep!

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

I just had an idea. There is a guy at SWAT who rebuilds Thomas vacuum pumps and sells them as either complete systems or separate components. I stopped at his booth and watch for a bit. From what I could tell, they were selling like hotcakes. The typical price for a complete system was around $150. Unfortunately, the SWAT website has already purged all information about this year's symposium. Maybe somebody who was there bought one and can give you contact information.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Found it

This is the guy who was selling them at SWAT: Frugal Vacuum Chuck

 

[Hu Lowery]

having problems finding vacuum pumps

This is the guy who was selling them at SWAT: Frugal Vacuum Chuck

Bill,

This is the man I tried to buy a system from. His business model is based on finding the surplus vacuum pumps in bulk and testing them. He uses the ones that are very close to new condition as is for one grade of kit and rebuilds the rest. He has a page up now indicating he needs to find more pumps and he didn't respond to my e-mail. Now that I have bought the pump I'm pretty much committed to piecing out a unit myself.

Hu

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

This is the guy who was selling them at SWAT: Frugal Vacuum Chuck[/QUOTE
It is a fine kit . I got one early this year and it is quiet also. I do not have any ideas for Hu ,but Frugal is a great alternative or maybe I should say a primary decision vs some of the $600 models.
The kit ships with all the parts needed and the chuck is 4 inch also available in 3 and 2 inch (or a kit of parts for the last one). He has some very informative videos on his site. I wish I had one of these 10 years ago.
I was going to tell Bill who the email was too ,but Hu beat me to it.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill,

This is the man I tried to buy a system from. His business model is based on finding the surplus vacuum pumps in bulk and testing them. He uses the ones that are very close to new condition as is for one grade of kit and rebuilds the rest. He has a page up now indicating he needs to find more pumps and he didn't respond to my e-mail. Now that I have bought the pump I'm pretty much committed to piecing out a unit myself.

Hu

I'm sure that he would give you some technical help for free and might even sell you the right capacitor. Last year at SWAT he must have had a hundred or more systems for sale and sold most, if not all, of them. It looked like a shark feeding frenzy around his booth. He was there this year, but had only a third to half as many units. By the time that the symposium was over, hew still had about a dozen or more left. The reason that you haven't heard from him might be because he was getting ready for SWAT, traveling here, traveling back home, collapsing from exhaustion, unwinding, swamped with phone calls and emails, etc. Give him a chance to catch his breath and try again.

 

[Hu Lowery]

could have been . . .

I'm sure that he would give you some technical help for free and might even sell you the right capacitor. Last year at SWAT he must have had a hundred or more systems for sale and sold most, if not all, of them. It looked like a shark feeding frenzy around his booth. He was there this year, but had only a third to half as many units. By the time that the symposium was over, hew still had about a dozen or more left. The reason that you haven't heard from him might be because he was getting ready for SWAT, traveling here, traveling back home, collapsing from exhaustion, unwinding, swamped with phone calls and emails, etc. Give him a chance to catch his breath and try again.

I would have to go back and check when I did try to contact Bob. Might e-mail him for information but I may find a local contractor too. I was hoping that someone might have one handy to just look at the capacitor but that doesn't seem to be working out. No big deal, I just don't want to have too much delay before testing the unit I bought. When I started looking for a capacitor I found him selling the exact same unit under a different company name somewhere else. Might be the same person, might be a stolen account . . . I'm a little uncomfortable. I did buy through e-bay and used the delayed pay set up with paypal so if the unit doesn't arrive as described I will give paypal a shout immediately. Fourteen days before the funds leave my account but that can go pretty fast with double shipping.


Gerald,

Could be possible I should have been a little more patient. SWAT or anything I knew of wasn't going on when I e-mailed but all kinds of ways for e-mails to fall through the cracks. Do you have a Thomas or Gast pump on your unit? All I am chasing is the complete numbers off of the cap for the Thomas unit. I think micro farads, tolerance, and seems like one more thing should be listed. One capacitor I was looking at for something else had this information on it:

CAPACITOR:
10/15uf +/- 5/10% mk
450vac cl A 25/85/21
A15E10 50/60 hz


There was a time I could read all of that but that was right after taking a class over twenty-five years ago. Never used the training and I have forgotten what most of that means so I am just hoping to match the right capacitor. Minor detail is that this requires having a cap to look at or the information from the right one. The information above isn't right for that motor, just an example from a cap.

Thanks for your post! I feel a little uncomfortable to contact somebody just for free information when they sell the same thing but I may have to give Bob a call or send him an e-mail.

Hu

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

pics of labels info

Hu I tried to put in photos of my labels from iphone , no luck . So I will synopsis them.
mod no 2560CE37-989 H
insul class b
motor no 608996D
Thomas Products

model no K48ZZGBP4190


capitor1068698
15uF + 10/-5% 370 VAC 50/60 Hz
SFP37G15Z238B OP3 no pbc's
P1000 AFC Protected 70 degree C+

Hope some of this helps

 

[Hu Lowery]

Should be it. THANK YOU!

Hu I tried to put in photos of my labels from iphone , no luck . So I will synopsis them.
mod no 2560CE37-989 H
insul class b
motor no 608996D
Thomas Products

model no K48ZZGBP4190


capitor1068698
15uF + 10/-5% 370 VAC 50/60 Hz
SFP37G15Z238B OP3 no pbc's
P1000 AFC Protected 70 degree C+

Hope some of this helps

Gerald,

This is exactly what I was looking for, hopefully exactly what I need. I should be able to go to a supply house and get what I need based on what you have there.

I do much appreciate your help!

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

Here you go

$12.79 for the 2MDV9 at Grainger. See this page

I have a Gast pump, but it does not use a capacitor.

 

[Hu Lowery]

Thank You!

$12.79 for the 2MDV9 at Grainger. See this page

I have a Gast pump, but it does not use a capacitor.

Bill,

Thank You! Looks like I'm good to go now.

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

If you're feeling extra Scottish or Ferengi today, you could go for the Dayton 2MEC5 for $12.36 at Grainger ... a savings of 43¢. The difference is a round can that is larger than the oval can. BTW, you can always go to the next step higher working voltage such as 440 VAC if the 370 VAC capacitors are temporarily out of stock.

 

[Hu Lowery]

Well, I gotta admit . . .

If you're feeling extra Scottish or Ferengi today, you could go for the Dayton 2MEC5 for $12.36 at Grainger ... a savings of 43¢. The difference is a round can that is larger than the oval can. BTW, you can always go to the next step higher working voltage such as 440 VAC if the 370 VAC capacitors are temporarily out of stock.

Bill,

Appreciate the additional info. I have to admit that while I didn't shop around I did go to the little yellow hardware store first, McMaster-Carr. Looks like they have the cap for nine dollars. Not going to save me money though, always things to buy at McMaster while I'm placing an order! I don't know what the nut size is on the holddowns on my new lathe's headstock and tailstock but buying lock nuts for them while ordering seems like a good idea, only one lock nut and three places to put it right now!

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

... and, I just have to ask because ... cats are curious ... what are hold downs and why do their nuts need to be locked? The only thing that come to my mind are T-slot nuts to hold down clamps on a drill press table. Hold down accessories like lights maybe? Don't keep me in suspense, Hu. The headstock on my lathe has a holder for a Moffatt lamp and I also have some magnetic base lamps that can be moved around.

Sounds like a good deal on the capacitor. The Grainger price is the full retail price, but they give discounts to almost anybody if you belong to almost any organization like Farm Bureau, Lions Club, AA.

 

[Hu Lowery]

ya got me Bill!

... and, I just have to ask because ... cats are curious ... what are hold downs and why do their nuts need to be locked? The only thing that come to my mind are T-slot nuts to hold down clamps on a drill press table. Hold down accessories like lights maybe? Don't keep me in suspense, Hu. The headstock on my lathe has a holder for a Moffatt lamp and I also have some magnetic base lamps that can be moved around.

Sounds like a good deal on the capacitor. The Grainger price is the full retail price, but they give discounts to almost anybody if you belong to almost any organization like Farm Bureau, Lions Club, AA.

Bill, you got me!

In an effort to not word thing awkwardly making a mile long sentence I didn't say that the nuts on the headstock lockdown adjustment, tailstock lockdown adjustment, and banjo lockdown adjustment are all the same size. Grizzly supplied one lock nut that size and the rest are very loose fitting standard nuts. Please don't ask me what standard nuts are because I don't know! The lock nuts would need adjusting a lot less often.

Been wanting some small pieces of metal to play with and a few other things, gotta try to stir my memory about what all I have been thinking about ordering. Might be able to get some better grade screws than hardware store pot metal to mount wood to my faceplate too. No telling what all I can find there, that is what gets me in trouble! I'm sure I can buy all of the hardware for my vacuum chuck assembly there if I spec it out before I order. Always more I can buy there. A blessing that I no longer get hard copy catalogs from the supply houses to look through when I'm bored; I used to find all kinds of things I never knew I needed until I saw them!

Hu

 

[Hu Lowery]

update and a thank you

I just wanted to update and thank everyone. Bought a 15mf cap, plus or minus five percent. Must be close enough, the unit runs fine. Not sure of the condition of the upper end. Might be the pump or it might be my gauge I had laying around. Only pulling about twenty pounds of vacuum which it does immediately with nothing hooked up but a vacuum gauge off of an old AC charging manifold. The pop off valve is supposed to be set at 45 on the pressure side, I'm getting 42 pounds. Doesn't look like a very precision valve so no surprise it is a few pounds off. The pump hits that 42 pounds literally in a second or two. Basically plug it in and the valve pops. I can get a kit if needed but being none too sure about this gauge I think I will try the system first.

A big thank you for all of the help provided. I still need a waste valve and plumbing to it, also need to put the chuck itself together. Looks like I am going to have to mail order a few things but hopefully I'll post an update with a picture or two within the next two weeks. I have a running pump and most of the plumbing. I think the big stuff is behind me. Looking at the kit, if I do have to rebuild the top end it shouldn't be a big deal. Thinking about taking it apart, somebody used Teflon tape on the fittings. Not a good idea and there may be some under the reed valves.

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

I would recommend a needle valve for the bleed valve that controls the amount of vacuum. A lot of people use ball valves for that but that seems like a very crude method to me. After all it takes very little bleed air to cause a huge drop in vacuum level. I also have an old A/C manifold gauge set and the vacuum scale is not very accurate. I've been intending to get a decent vacuum gauge for several years and one of these years I may actually do it.

Put a small filter on the atmosphere side of the bleed valve and a larger filter rated for 5 microns on the line that goes to the rotary coupler. Check the operating manual to see if the pump requires a shut down procedure such as running the pump open port and blocked port for a specified number of minutes. If so, it would be useful to get a T and a couple ball valves. My Gast pump requires going through shut-down cycling. It's a nuisance, but I do it.

Stay away from cheap rotary couplers -- they're no bargain. Cheap units generally have only one bearing. Decent ones have at least two bearings.

 

[hockenbery]

Vacuum is a terrific way to hold pieces on the lathe.

Gauges are important. Mine had been broken for several years and I had learned a long time ago that when the wood pulled away from the tailstock slightly that was sufficient to hold the piece.
I decided to get a new gauge before Al Stirt did a class in my shop a few years ago.
Ended up getting a dual pressure/ vacuum gauge as a temporary from McMaster and back ordering a vacuum only gauge.
when Al arrived and we were doing the shop walk through checking on all the stuff he would use in class I pointed out that he might not like the vacuum gauge because it was hard to read. Al told me his gauge had been broken for a couple of years too.

Al

 

[Hu Lowery]

"Done" and "Working on it"

Bill,

I did get a needle valve to regulate flow with. Been decades but I did do a ten week piping design class long ago. I already had put a lot of hours in inside petro-chem plants so knew for sure that gate valves and every other kind of valves were sometimes used to regulate flow. A royal pain and it sometimes took days to smooth out things. Most units can run at well over 100% of capacity when demand is high. They do it by using some of the bypass loops as production flow routes, bad practice as we know but money talks!



Al,

For some reason, mainly buying cheap garbage on sale and forgetting I bought them, and having one set of high quality R-12/R-22 gauges around, I have four or five sets of AC gauges and manifolds. I suspect the gauge I stole from one for the time being is not accurate but as long as it is repeatable I think it will work. The little yellow hardware store does have a big dial low quality vacuum gauge for about twenty-five dollars I will get eventually, may or may not be more accurate.


Hu

 

[hockenbery]

Al, For some reason, mainly buying cheap garbage on sale and forgetting I bought them, and having one set of high quality R-12/R-22 gauges around, I have four or five sets of AC gauges and manifolds. I suspect the gauge I stole from one for the time being is not accurate but as long as it is repeatable I think it will work. The little yellow hardware store does have a big dial low quality vacuum gauge for about twenty-five dollars I will get eventually, may or may not be more accurate. Hu

Hu,
Just remember the gauges don't have a mark for the breaking point of your bowl or vessel.
I have heard a bad noise on occasion when overestimating the vacuum to use on pieces not fun:-(
They don't hold well it's cracks.

I tested my new vacuum system with a 5 gallon bucket that 300 pound people can stand on.
I put it on a foam covered disk closed the bleed valve, held nicely for a while then a loud "whoomp". It imploded
Impressive stuff the whole earth pushing on that bucket....

Al

 

[Hu Lowery]

vacuum

Hu,
Just remember the gauges don't have a mark for the breaking point of your bowl or vessel.
I have heard a bad noise on occasion when overestimating the vacuum to use on pieces not fun:-(
They don't hold well it's cracks.

I tested my new vacuum system with a 5 gallon bucket that 300 pound people can stand on.
I put it on a foam covered disk closed the bleed valve, held nicely for a while then a loud "whoomp". It imploded
Impressive stuff the whole earth pushing on that bucket....

Al

Al,

There was a small vessel or pot in an undisclosable location, I think it held 250 gallons. Stainless steel with a unit built around it. Someone helpfully closed the vent valve in the top of it without consulting anyone. Sucked the pot flat in short order and a new one had to be custom made then cut into fourths to get it into the hole it had to fit in. No happy campers over that deal!

This made the instrument group curious so they hooked a vacuum pump to a standard steel 55 gallon drum. Sucked it flat too.

I'll start low and work upwards. I'm sure I'll crack a bowl or three but I'm going to try not to. When I think about it I have enough junk bowls laying around to sacrifice a few to testing. I'll start low and work upwards instead of the other way around!

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

... I'll start low and work upwards. I'm sure I'll crack a bowl or three but I'm going to try not to. When I think about it I have enough junk bowls laying around to sacrifice a few to testing. I'll start low and work upwards instead of the other way around!

Hu, I watch the Discovery channel and I am sure that you aren't the one wearing bib overalls and no shirt working on a pressure cooker out in the woods . . . are you? 😀

Vacuum chucking isn't rocket science so while a good vacuum gauge is very nice to have from the perspective of monitoring your vacuum chuck performance and the system overall for leaks and pressure drops . . . . when it comes to actually chucking wood, you develop an intuitive feel pretty quickly, especially if you "oil can" a thin one. If the stars all align just right, a buckled one may pop back into shape when the vacuum is removed. Don't count on that as a regular occurrence. 🙄

Depending on the wood thickness and diameter of your vacuum chuck, you generally shoot for a ballpark on the gauge and then give the wood a tug just top make sure that it is being held securely. Even if it is, keep the tailstock in place until you are down to the final nub ... just in case.

Some species of wood leak like a sieve and when you are finishing up the foot, the leakage will only increase. An occasional check of the vacuum gauge will let you know how things are going. This is where a vacuum-only large dial is most useful in spotting a trend.

 

[Hu Lowery]

couldn't have been me . . .

Hu, I watch the Discovery channel and I am sure that you aren't the one wearing bib overalls and no shirt working on a pressure cooker out in the woods . . . are you? 😀

Vacuum chucking isn't rocket science so while a good vacuum gauge is very nice to have from the perspective of monitoring your vacuum chuck performance and the system overall for leaks and pressure drops . . . . when it comes to actually chucking wood, you develop an intuitive feel pretty quickly, especially if you "oil can" a thin one. If the stars all align just right, a buckled one may pop back into shape when the vacuum is removed. Don't count on that as a regular occurrence. 🙄

Depending on the wood thickness and diameter of your vacuum chuck, you generally shoot for a ballpark on the gauge and then give the wood a tug just top make sure that it is being held securely. Even if it is, keep the tailstock in place until you are down to the final nub ... just in case.

Some species of wood leak like a sieve and when you are finishing up the foot, the leakage will only increase. An occasional check of the vacuum gauge will let you know how things are going. This is where a vacuum-only large dial is most useful in spotting a trend.

Bill,

Couldn't have been me on Discovery, I never wear bib overalls! I was just fixing to buy a couple of large pressure cookers awhile back for playing with wood. About that time the terrorists used one to contain explosives. I decided it wasn't the best of times to be buying multiple large pressure cookers.

I am less than twenty miles from the Mississippi border. The reason that is a factor is Mississippi is dry, no hard liquor. There have been a lot of squeezings cooked in the woods around here but I'm innocenter than not! I did know some ol'boys doing a li'l cooking long ago. 3500 gallons a week, when the boys came in with the axes one said he had just toured the Old Forester distillery and the still was bigger!

Hu