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Broken screws!

S

squirrel

Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
132
Likes
1
Location
Belgium
Hi,

I'm turning very fresh oak and I fixed it already in different ways: with normal screws, with 'nuts' (a screw with a six-sided top) and with inox 'nuts'.
I'm still not confident about the best method .... rust appears very fast , screws break because of the moisture, 'nuts' can break as well and you must be carefull that they have a good grip in the wood (endgrain) ... so I wonder who has experience with fresh oak - large sizes ? And what is your favourite method to fix it?

The moisture also makes my faceplate completely rusty . What shall I do to avoid that? Put some varnish on it?

Thanks - Squirrel
 
Squirrel when I turn oak the first thing I do is spray and wipe down everything anywhere near the lathe with WD-40. Especially the chuck, faceplate, lathe bed, tool rest and banjo. I try to get the shavings off of everything anytime I stop for any reason.
I've been using sheet metal screws without problems. I don't know the brand just something I picked up at the hardware somewhere along the line. I also use some square drive screws from McFeely's. I don't know what they are either but I'm sure I read the catalog and tried to find something that was more rust resistant.
 
I've been really impressed with HighPoint XT extra torque Woodworking screws, available in many lengths and 4 varieties--black oxide, yellow zinc, zinc, and dry lube. Sometimes you can catch them on sale and pick up a nice assortment that way.
 
It is not easy to get a solid grip when screwing into end grain. There are some deep thread wood screws in which the threads are very sharp and self tapping. I would drill a slightly undersized pilot hole for the screw shank. If you use large screws, you can also put a little CA in the holes before screwing the wood blank to the faceplate (provided that you are using hex head screws). A little paste wax on the faceplate is good for several reasons -- rust prevention and helps to keep CA from gluing the wood to it.
 
These screws have great pullout resistance in end grain, though they are not particularly thick, like the Lag screws you have been using. http://spax.com/

If you're turning over the bed, use the tailstock, it'll help even a mediocre hold do the job. If you're turning without benefit of tailstock, give yourself a lot of screws, and a softer start by spinning up the piece by hand as the motor engages.

I find it easier to remove rust than to waste time trying to prevent it.
 
Screws

I can understand the rust, but the screws....I do not grind down super hard when using faceplate...I use square drive 1" -1 1/2" self tapping screws that I buy from Ace by the fistfull...drive 'em in with my trusty drill. No need for a pilot hole. Just don't overtorque and always use tailstock, and try not to hawg off so much at a time. Slow down, and if it is green wood, I check and re- tighten the screws as needed. As for rust, I am not that picky..I lay down some shop rags over critical areas and go for it. Never had a problem with rust bleeding into wood, or causing any staining or corrosion on tools or equipment.:cool2::cool2:
 
Well!
I do all my turning with green wood ,I'm currently using a 1 1/2 ''s.s lag screw type with 5/6 and or 7/6 hex head ,usually put antilock paste on them which makes it a breeze to pull out , always use the tail head to rough out,once everything is smooth then I move the tail head and start the hollowing and so far so good....haven't had any problems with rust.Orando
 
Personally, when turning end grain, I prefer a tenon and large jaws on my chuck. I don't trust screws in end grain, and with the chuck, you don't have to worry about screws and the face plate.

Yes, I do use tenons some times, but only on end grain.

robo hippy
 
Hi,


thanks for the new suggestions. I'll look after them. Because I'm convinced that I really need another screw.

Wet wood is not the main problem. End grain is not the main problem neither. It is the moisture in oak who is the problem. It eatss the screws or weakens them.

The large size is also a bit the problem (this piece was 60 cm wide and 35 high) which makes me need long screws.

The screws I used were 8 cm long and 8 mm wide. I drill a hole of 4 mm before I put the screws in. The start is slow and the speed is driven up slowly up to 350 rpm. I use the tailstock ... so as far as I can see the only problem left is the screws ...


Thanks - Squirrel!
 
Stainless steel is the best solution for corrosion if you must leave them on the faceplate so long that it becomes a factor. Spax come in stainless, but at a high price.
 
screws

if all else fails try using stainless steel screws.
and once again i find myself questionING peoples use of wd40 to keep things rust free. it works short term it attracts water. USE SILICONE
ask any gunsmith his opinion on wd40 most wont be caught dead using it to protect their pricey investments.
just one mans opinion no offense meant at all
 
Screws

HOW LONG are you leaving the screws in the wet Oak???? I have left crappy cheap screws in wet green Oak several days with no problems. If you leave faceplates attached to wet green Oak with cheap screws and put on shelf for a year or so, then I could see the problem. Also, I never drill pilot hole, even in dry seasoned Oak. You get support from tailstock, not screws, and not much force is needed for torque, so size and out-of-balance wood is not a factor....something else is wrong here. Maybe you are just trying to hog off too much....slow'er down, it will work.:cool2::cool2:
 
Hi,

it seems unbelievable but I only left the faceplate 1,5 day on the wet oak.
Until now I found the following solutions:
- stainless steel hexagonal nuts (they told me before they were not strong enough so I stopped using them but now somebody else tells me that they are strong enough for the job)
- a special kind of screws which is in use here to screw terraces made of exotic wood. They are reinforced at the head and they are made by the company Würth.
The tapcon is not available here around.

Maybe this information can be usefull for somebody else as well ...

Squirrel
 
McFeely's

I use face plates almost exclusively and I've been using square drive #14 wood screws from McFeely's for several years. The square indent seems to never wear out (I use a battery powered impact driver) and I can use the same set of screws for about 6 to 12 months. Replacement is usually required only when I lose them. I don't have any problems with them coming loose or breaking.

Don Geiger
 
Tap it...

I have had similar issues with screws breaking off. I actually use a small drill bit to tap it first. It has made all the difference.
 
Don,

the screws are breaking, they do not get rusty ... amube weakening ... but I think I get nearer to the main reason:
- I screwed in wet endgrain
- I fastened the screws to fast and too tough (it get a shock when touching the face plate)
- The piece was big and a lot of trembling occurred before it was completely round.

Does this not sound reasonable.

Some people tell me they find it dangerous to predrill holes and use hexagonal screwsheads
Some people (of the field) tell me they never would use stainless steel - too hard in their opinion.
????
Squirrel
 
Screws

I rarely break off screws....even the cheap ones. It is very hard for me to understand why you have a problem if (1) you are not over-torquing, (2) you are always using a tailstock support, and (3) keep R.P.M. very low until turning eliminates balance problem. I have turned some very out-of-balance and soft, wet, green, punky or super hard stuff, and cross grain, end grain with no problems. I never drill "pilot holes". You might try not to be so agressive on the face plate mounting.....I find that any problems I have with screws can be traced to my being in a hurry...........😕😕
 
If the screws do not fit the holes in your face plate and when you catch it can cause the wood to slip and this can cause a sheareing action to the screws.
 
to mr Don

yes,
probably screwing too agressive must be one of the major problems ... and ... the endgrain of wet oak which makes the screws loosen faster.
How big are you turning? Because the problem occurs only with big sizes, endgrain and especially oak.
Squirrel
 
and ...

the RPM is ok - not more than 350 rpm
The tailstock? Not possible to keep it all the time there.

I find it strange that screws can have the wobbling of a piece but cannot stand to be driven in the wood with speed and force and then be blocked suddenly when they are stopped at the faceplate.

But as I found out: this is the way it is.

Squirrel.
 
Wet Oak & screws

Echoing all the above good advice and observations, I encourage folks to forgo the faceplate and screws altogether (most) of the time, and do the rough turning between centers.
Presuming a good variable speed lathe and a 1.24"x8(tpi) spindle, an oversize spur drive, and revolving tailstock center is ideal for me.
A really heavy duty spur drive can be obtained through stubby lathe, or I believe Oneway also has a solution as well.
The main caveat is to take things easy and turn the rough blank to balance and then form an appropriately sized tenon (to be reversed and held in the scroll chuck for subsequent operations).
I believe our best friend in all roughing operations is the tailstock (even when using a faceplate, rarely).
I have evolved to this direct method after going through the faceplate and screws and staining, and shearing off, and almost all the other problems described above. I am often starting off with blanks 25" or so in diameter.
Just be careful, watch the speed, and be patient. I find the direct approach the most fulfilling.
 
Hi Pope,

a heavy duty spur drive? Never heard of that. How does it looks like?
I'm working on a vb 36 short bed. The tailstock center is about 1.5 inches wide and ends in one single point. Do you think that is a good one?
I neve dare use anything else as a faceplate because I do not trust the
warping of the wood, certainly not on big sizes. Am I wrong (along your experiences) ?

Yesterday I mounted a new piece of oak, endgrain, big sizes and I took care to put the screws in very very slowly ... until now all the screws are ok.
So probably that was the main problem: tightening too fast and too tough.

About the staining: I used silicone and I used oil ... both help a bit but not enough: some rust and stain remains.

Thanks - Squirrel
 
between centers

Hi pope,

it is not possible to turn large sizes between centers on a vb. A vb is not made for work between the centers, I'm afraid. I once had mechanical problems with it and the factory said the reason was the turning between the centers I did. So, since then I stopped doing it.

But I can imagine it is a good solution with the right lathe. Do you have photographs of yours?

Squirrel
 
Face plate screws

One of the reason for less than satisfactory results can be a mismatch between the screw and the face plate surface. If the face plate has a flat surface, the bottom of the screw should be flat, if it is beveled the surface of both should match.
 
Hi Squirrel

Aha! Given that your lathe is not conducive to use of the tailstock, in the manner I described, you are certainly on the right track with the faceplate solution. If your faceplate is of stainless that will help ameliorate discoloration...by all means use the stainless screws.
However, I think it is always best to get things balanced in rough turning, right away so you can properly reverse the blank and get after the interior.
I use a 4" diameter faceplate when I have to, rough out the exterior with a tenon, reverse the blank and thus the center section with screw holes is pretty much waste material anyway, as I core out smaller blanks. Too bad you can't avail yourself of the tailstock and live center.
Hope that helps.
I will try and send you a picture of my setup....would you prefer off-line?
 
End Grain Turning on a VB-36

Squirrel,

I also have a VB-36, the model without any tailstock. I have not turned a lot of end grain bowls, but some. I used the 8" face plate with 6 #14 x 1 1/4" type A sheet metal screws, on the smaller bolt circle. On some of the more open grain woods I did have some of the screws loosen while ruffing the log to be round (from 24" to 28" corner to corner dimension).

When I started using the two bolt circles for a total of 12 screws, when turning end grain work, the loosing of the screws stopped. On end grain faceplate work I never use a pilot hole for the screws.

Good luck and Happy Turning,

Dave
 
to Pope and Dave

Hi Pope,

the tailstock is ok in use together with the faceplate and that is how I use it.
But one time I used the vb for turning coffeetablelegs between centers - so I drive fery firmly both centers in the wood and turned at very high speed ... and a mechanical problem occurred.
Since then, I know the vb is not good for work between centers at high speed.
But for big pieces and in combination with tenon or faceplate it is vey very good.

Hi Dave,
it was the first time I had all screws, exept one broken. I'm pretty sure I've been tightening too hard. I did not know I had to be carefull with that.
Yhe piece I have now on the lathe is just perfect. I also did not know that the surface between faceplate and wood had to be flat!
But now I know that as well ... well, maybe at the end I will become a bit professional ... if I get the chance.

Thanks and bye!
Squirrel
 
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