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Broke a tool

Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
469
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Location
nj
Snapped a 3/8 Thompson Gouge in like three or four pieces. Haven't found all the pieces. Haven't found the tip. Don't imagine that super glue is going to be much help.
I was cutting well off the rest the tool flexed chattered a bit came up caught and got slammed down in all the time it takes for a light beam to cross my shop. It was fast.
Thompson has a 100% satisfaction guarantee it's entirely without caveats or qualifiers. But I feel a little cheesy returning a tool I broke that way. Can't exactly say it was a flaw in the metal.
 
I'm glad your story doesn't include any personal injuries. It's scary to think about that happening, regardless of the cause.

I don't know if it means I'm sick or just curious, but I enjoy watching videos of catches in slow motion. I try to see if I can see the the moment that led to the catch as a learning opportunity. In every case, they happen FAST, much faster than the turner can respond.

Just out of curiosity, was it a deep fluted gouge or a spindle gouge? I would expect that the spindle gouge would have handled it better, but maybe not.

I think you ought to tell Doug Thompson about it, what the circumstances were, etc. I bet he'd like to know that it happened. I can understand you feeling responsible for it, but at the same time, it might help him make improvements to his already great tools.
 
Give it a try. Honesty is the best policy and they might sympathize with you. By giving you a new tool, they figure you will buy more tools in the future.
It is surprising what companies will take back as a defect. When I worked at Sears, we had a guy who would buy a pair of shoes, wear them for a few months and bring them back, cashing in on Sears "return for new" policy. Saw an aluminum tea pot that had gone dry and had the imprint of the coils in the bottom. Got a new one.
 
I really doubt the tool chattered. I use my 3/8" detail gouge hanging way over the rest sometimes when doing inside out turnings. It handles it with ease. I've been using my 1/2" thompson spindle gouge a huge amount lately, no chatter from that tool either. My guess is you came off the bevel slightly although your statement about coming up sounds like you might have gone beyond the center of the work and since the wood there is rising it will lift the tool and slam it back down on the down hill side, been there done that but only mashed my finger which hurt like hell.
 
I don't know if it means I'm sick or just curious, but I enjoy watching videos of catches in slow motion. I try to see if I can see the the moment that led to the catch as a learning opportunity.
Would that we all could see our own catches in SloMo. Someone wise told me to always figure out why a catch occurred, not to just breeze past it to scurry onward.😱
 
Majority of tool catches that I have had over the years was caused from too many hours
working on a project or task and losing focus or getting fatigued when the tool catches.
When a tool catches you usually are losing your focus on the tool control and the angle
of approach by the tool being used.
 
It sounds like operator error. You can call Doug and tell him your tool broke and he will probably replace it. Now if the thousands of us who own his tools broke them by using dubious methods and then expected to have them replaced, how long would he be in business. We know tools used properly do sometimes break, it happens. If I break a tool because I used it improperly, well that is a different story. That is up to each individual.
 
I don't know anything about HSS, but I just thought that because it's a form of steel, it would bend long before it would shatter. I guess I never really thought of steel as being a brittle metal.

I still have so much to learn.
 
You can also confirm chatter by seeing multiple dig-in's in the bowl assuming that it's still mostly in one piece. Wood is flexible and will vibrate which, in turn, will make the tool vibrate. When I was a beginner I also some pretty exciting catches with the tool slamming against the rest. It's certainly attention grabbing to say the least. And, as you said Raul, it happens at light speed.

I agree with Bill Blastic and I also wouldn't feel right about expecting a free tool if it broke from improper use.
 
I guess I would have had to have been there to figure out what caused the chatter... First suspicion would be you were too far off the tool rest and the tool was flexing. This is common as we try to find the limits of how far off the tool rest we can reach with any given tool. Long ago, If I can feel the tool leverage point getting to the max, I switch to a heavier too, and/or take a lighter cut, and/or move the tool rest. Most of the time I move the tool rest.

robo hippy
 
I don't know anything about HSS, but I just thought that because it's a form of steel, it would bend long before it would shatter. I guess I never really thought of steel as being a brittle metal.

I still have so much to learn.
In the annealed form, HSS has some ductility (in other words, it will bend, or squish some before it breaks). In the heat-treated state (e.g. hardened), the ductility is greatly reduced.

Without physically seeing the pieces of the tool (or the willingness to sacrifice my Thompson gouges), I'm going to say that Raul's tool had more of a brittle type of failure than a ductile failure. That's a compromise that tool and die manufacturers choose--they want high wear resistance (which implies high hardness), but this will make the material generally less ductile.

I'm glad that Raul survived the incident without injury. I hope his underwear also survived (I'm not sure mine would have in a similar situation 😱 )
 
Tell that to my ears and hands. it chattered got up off the rest from the chatter ( by some tiny amount) and caught and slammed down hard.
When I get chatter the first thing I do is back off.
Lighten the cut, lessen the bevel pressure. Move the tool rest closer.

Chatter from a correct cutting position won't cause a catch but it may cause you to loose control of the tool and move it into a catch position.

What chatter does is create bumps in the surface and get the work more and more out of round.
Hence you have to back off an let the tool cut.

A gouge should not break unless it was abused significantly.
Dropping the gouge dropped on concrete could damage to tool.
 
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I was being a bad boy.

There is a not very likely possibility that somehow after hardening the tool didn't go through all of the tempering steps. Doug might be interested in testing a piece of the broken tool to see if that is the case.

You can have a large overhang if experienced enough and you are cutting near the center where the speed is low. At the outer edge, the rest should be as close as possible. If you are scraping rather than slicing then the overhang should be as small as possible.
 
I was being a bad boy.
Do be careful!
Find out what you did wrong so you don't hurt yourself.

If poor technique is causing breaking tools you could get hurt or even killed.
I encourage newer turners to get some hands on instruction.

Those who take classes or mentoring advance skills rapidly and build a set of safe and effective techniques as a base to build on.

Turning done correctly is one of the safest ways to work with wood.
Done incorrectly massive and even deadly injuries can happen.
Be safe

Al
 
In the annealed form, HSS has some ductility (in other words, it will bend, or squish some before it breaks). In the heat-treated state (e.g. hardened), the ductility is greatly reduced.

Without physically seeing the pieces of the tool (or the willingness to sacrifice my Thompson gouges), I'm going to say that Raul's tool had more of a brittle type of failure than a ductile failure. That's a compromise that tool and die manufacturers choose--they want high wear resistance (which implies high hardness), but this will make the material generally less ductile.

I'm glad that Raul survived the incident without injury. I hope his underwear also survived (I'm not sure mine would have in a similar situation 😱 )
Annealed? Ductility? Like I said, I have so much to learn.

Thanks for providing me with a starting point. 😀
 
When I sold restaurant equipment and supplies, I was surprised to learn that good cutlery metal is actually brittle to hold an edge. Soft metal, as we know, dulls quickly. I would be curious about the tool shattering into multiple pieces.
 
My guess is you came off the bevel slightly although your statement about coming up sounds like you might have gone beyond the center of the work and since the wood there is rising it will lift the tool and slam it back down on the down hill side, been there done that but only mashed my finger which hurt like hell.
I am not quite getting this scenario. Could you explain this a little further ? I am quite certain I have experienced this, but don't understand whats happening.
 
I am not quite getting this scenario. Could you explain this a little further ? I am quite certain I have experienced this, but don't understand whats happening.
Adding to what John said. if you hollow a bowl from rim to center the wood is coming down on the left side of center. If you push too hard you can overshoot the center. Now the gouge is contacting wood that is rising on the right side. If you are pushing against the wood it will lift the gouge up off the tool rest and bring it around to the left side and likely catch and bang down hard on th e tool rest.

light cuts in the bottom minimizes/eliminates this. I slow down as i approac center with the tool and try to catch the center shaving in the flute. I rarely catch it but it forces me to slow down and stay at center. It also eliminates the little divots in the center made by breaking the center nub instead of cutting it.
 
Ok I get it now. For some reason I was picturing the cut on the outside of the piece and trying to figure out what would cause the tool to rise and the slam down.
Thanks for clearing this up.
 
I would be curious about the tool shattering into multiple pieces.
The whole tool is very hard. I forget what tool steel alloy he uses - he actually told me when I called to ask about the risk of distempering on the grinder. They are heat treated to probably somewhere between 68 to 70 RC. The Young's modulus is probably somewhere around 30 maybe 40 times Ten to the Sixth Power. It's pretty inflexible.

So when the tool experiences chattering, the flexing can take the form of a wave thus creating multiple places along the tool where the Modulus of elasticity is being challenged. The shock of the first fracture can propagate along the tool causing fractures instantly where the flexing is also too high. Ergo lots of pieces.
 
The whole tool is very hard. I forget what tool steel alloy he uses - he actually told me when I called to ask about the risk of distempering on the grinder. They are heat treated to probably somewhere between 68 to 70 RC. The Young's modulus is probably somewhere around 30 maybe 40 times Ten to the Sixth Power. It's pretty inflexible.

So when the tool experiences chattering, the flexing can take the form of a wave thus creating multiple places along the tool where the Modulus of elasticity is being challenged. The shock of the first fracture can propagate along the tool causing fractures instantly where the flexing is also too high. Ergo lots of pieces.

Thompson uses either 10V or 15V tool steel (AISI A-11 if you want to use generic; I think 10V is trademarked by one of the steel manufacturers). This is an air-hardening tool steel. All steels have practically the same Young's modulus--this is stiffness, or "springiness per unit area", if you want the qualitative description. For a given size of steel bar, regardless of whether it's tool steel, low carbon steel, etc., if you clamp on the bar with a vise, then, push on the bar with the same force, all steels will deflect by the same amount. Stainless steels have a slightly smaller modulus (springier) than regular steels. In customary English units, most steels have a Young's modulus of 30 million psi, or 200 gigapascal in standard SI units.

The yield strength of the steel is the resistance to permanent deformation--how much you push on a staple or a paper clip before it takes a permanent bend. This is also measured in psi or Pa.

The ultimate strength is the amount of force necessary to cause the steel bar to break (not just bend, but break). (This is a simplification, but you don't want me to quote lots of material science and metallurgy at you 😱)

Elongation to failure is how much you can stretch the steel before it breaks. This is a measure of the ductility of the material. As an example, cast iron typically is not very ductile, but taffy is very ductile. Unhardened steel is a lot more ductile than hardened steel, but hardened steel usually has a lot higher yield strength than unhardened.

Hardness is a test. The Rockwell hardness test for steel is similar to the wood Janka hardness test. In essence, a small hard ball (usually carbide) is pressed with a fixed amount of force into the steel surface. The harder the steel, the less the permanent indentation, and the higher the Rockwell number. People use the Rockwell C-scale for hardened tool steels; a good quality kitchen knife might have hardness in the 55 range in Rockwell C. A less expensive knife blade (swiss army knife stainless, for example), might have a 48 hardness in Rc. The Thompson tools are hardened into the 60's; probably 63 or so. The Rockwell scale is not linear; a change of, say, 3 points, does not mean the same proportional change at various points in the scale. Hardness is correlated with ultimate strength.

Toughness is resistance to fracture. It's how much energy can be put into a material before it breaks. The toughness test is usually swinging a big honking pendulum into a small section of steel with a defined geometry. Generally, harder steels are less tough.

Hardening is a process where the steel is heated to some high temperature, then, quenched (rapidly cooled) to "freeze-in" the material phase for higher strength. It is then "tempered" (re-heated to an intermediate temperature, slow-cooling) to help give the material a bit more toughness.

If you managed to read thru this without falling asleep, congratulations! I hope this answered your questions!

Again, Raul, I'm glad you suffered no injuries during your incident. If I were Doug Thompson (but I'm not, I'm a nerdy engineer), I would want to see the broken tool to do nerdy material science analysis. I've seen analysis of a bike frame (steel frame, Cro-Moly, double-butted, brazed with investment-cast lugs) that failed in fatigue after almost 100,000 miles of riding. That was a really cool analysis! (But my bicycle-riding friend had a colleague who was a professor of materials science, with access to electron microscopes, metallurgy labs, etc.--He too had no injuries when the frame broke.)
 
If the entire shaft or at least the first 6 or 8 inches is hardened as I'm sure many of the are, then they might shatter or at least break in multiple pieces when enough force is applied. Files as we know are much harder than turning tools and if you drop one on concrete it can easily shatter into multiple pieces. Some early carbon steel tools were only hardened for the first inch or so. This kept them from breaking with a nasty catch. My friend who was a production turner for 50 years used to reharden the tools himself after he ground away a few inches. He would notice that they didn't hold an edge as long and just reharden them and keep on using them. I don't have any inside info on how most tools are hardened to day so it would be a guess. I have talked to Doug and believe his tools are hardened all the way but they are thick enough not to break in most situations.
 
If the entire shaft or at least the first 6 or 8 inches is hardened as I'm sure many of the are, then they might shatter or at least break in multiple pieces when enough force is applied. Files as we know are much harder than turning tools and if you drop one on concrete it can easily shatter into multiple pieces. Some early carbon steel tools were only hardened for the first inch or so. This kept them from breaking with a nasty catch. My friend who was a production turner for 50 years used to reharden the tools himself after he ground away a few inches. He would notice that they didn't hold an edge as long and just reharden them and keep on using them. I don't have any inside info on how most tools are hardened to day so it would be a guess. I have talked to Doug and believe his tools are hardened all the way but they are thick enough not to break in most situations.

Modern high speed steels (heck, "modern" means 20th century) are not readily hardenable using home equipment. They need to be heated in controlled stages to about 1200 C, typically in a controlled atmosphere, then, quenched, then, tempered (typically near 500 C). All heating and cooling is done in controlled conditions. It is impractical with today's tool steels to harden only a portion of the tool.

The modern high speed steels retain their properties even when heated to "red hot" (500 C or more). When grinding to sharpen, the chips coming off the wheel are red-hot--but the base tool stays relatively cool. In industrial grinding, the grinding wheel and work are flooded with coolant. As a woodworker, I wouldn't want to do that (water, electricity, etc.)

Correct heat treatment is critical in getting the properties you want from your steel. A good heat treater is well worth what you pay them. Something as simple as not flushing the air from your furnace can alter the surface of your steel, so your expensive alloy is not as good at the surface. Overpacking your furnace to get as many jobs as you can, and mixing jobs (1150 C is close enough to 1200--let's just throw that other job that needs 1200 C into the 1150 C batch...) are other ways of messing up your materials.

Today's tool steels are pretty amazing--they are used in things like injection molds, making plastic components--both for toys, but also for engineering parts such as automotive water pumps; they are used in dies, stamping out body parts for your car, aluminum or steel ("tin") cans for food; molds for contact lenses; etc. Each different type of steel has different properties depending on what the requirements for the design is.
 
Hy YOu are exactly correct. Before I wrote my article on tool making I did a lot of research on HSS and particle metal steels especially the hardening and even the cryogenic treating. I had access to liquid nitrogen so I was dreaming about the possibilities but found out pretty quickly that you would need a pretty sophisticated home shop and quite a bit more knowledge and probably practice as well if you were going to do either successfully. High carbon steels of course were quite easy to play with.
what started the whole article was I kept reading in older turning books about using files for tools and then most modern books said "no way" they were dangerous. Well I had a friend who is a professional knife maker and makes some of his knives from files. A good knife needs to be able to bend without breaking but hard enough to hold an edge. His will do both so I read up on it more and decided to write an article about how to treat a file so that it could be used successfully and safely. Without going through the whole annealing, hardening and tempering process it's safe to say that if you put a file in the oven at 350 degrees for about an hour and then just let it cool you have taken the brittleness out of it but left it hard enough to use as a turning tool. Of course I covered a lot more than this in the article. It's in the Journal about 10 years ago or so.
 
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