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Box Elder--Preserving the flames?

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bfwhitma

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I find the red flames in Box Elder very beautiful. Is there any treatment that can be given to preserve the color against fading? My preference is to be "all natural" and not to apply colorants to the piece, but is there any fixative?
Thanks for any thoughts.
 
bfwhitma said:
I find the red flames in Box Elder very beautiful. Is there any treatment that can be given to preserve the color against fading? My preference is to be "all natural" and not to apply colorants to the piece, but is there any fixative?
Thanks for any thoughts.
Click to expand...

About the only thing you can do, all-natural or otherwise, is to put your piece in an unlighted closet so no UV light can reach it. That way you may get 10-15 years of red. UV light (natural or artificial) will take your red to brown in short order in the same manner that heartwood cherry darkens. UV blocking coatings can slow it down a bit, but the only way to hold the color for any appreciable time is to keep it in the dark
 
The only reliable method I've heard of is coloring the red with red metallic dyes. Binh Pho talked about using this method applied with an airbrush. I haven't had good success probably because my air brush is cheap and I don't have the skill. I can match the color I just can't seem to spray a pattern that exactly matches the original in shape and feathered edges.
We have to make photo enlargements at work that they use to display outdoors and we wanted to see if there was a coating that we could use that would enhance the life. We sort of did an Acid test by putting the photos in an east facing window. We tried all the same stuff most people recommend to slow down the fading of wood. We used Armorall, lacquers, several waxes and several sprays that claim to increase the fade resistance of photos. Non of them worked at all except Spar Varnish and we really didn't want the orange yellow color to our photos and you probably don't want it on Box Elder either.
On the plus side, indoors out of direct light it does last a very long time.
 
The problem is that the red color is caused by a fungus and it will die from exposure to light. I've had pieces last for quite a few years and then start changing color, I guess from reaching some sort of critical fungus point of some kind. There isn't any way of permanently fixing the natural color that I've ever heard of.
 
Depending on whose methodology you follow, the red is a natural reaction of the tree or a fungus infestation. Seems like one study concluded causality by the presence of the fungus, the other provided the fungus but didn't get anything different without the inoculation. In either case, the red to rust suggests a process like a ferrous to ferric transition. Iron is actively gathered in the roots, being necessary for the process of photosynthesis, so is available in greater than simple solute quantity. May or may not be significant that most leaves age red or yellow into brown. I feel it probably is. Sort of like the green that forms in injuries and below knots in cedar and such, it's a place where impaired circulation due to pinching allows the "arteries" to clog with, in one case calcium oxalate, in the other ferrous (?).

Not sure whether antioxidants would help, but seclusion or exclusion of the high-energy light that does the conversion in photosynthesis is the only common "solution."
 
I don't think dying fungus is a function of the color change. I've dried box elder in the microwave for box blanks and I'm pretty sure that kills any fungus. I know it removes all the moisture and fungus needs moisture to live.
Still it may be more than UV that causes the change.
Steven Russell told me last night that he is still working on test results for box elder colors on a 2 year test. He said it will be a while longer before he has it all put together.
 
I was discussing this very thing not too long ago with a friend of mine, Kim Blatt. He has been bleaching his box elder, which according to him, seems to fix the red color pretty much permanently. How much more I do not know, but he was telling me it does not seem to fade as it does with unbleached wood. I have no idea why this would work, but it would not hurt to try. And knowing of his skill, not to mention what he gets for his work, I am inclined to believe him.
 
Bill that is interesting. Bleach is an oxidizer so the red must be something that cannot be oxidized. I just finished turning a box elder bowl from a roughed out bowl that sat on a shelf in my shop for about 5 years. There is a window so the room is light during the day. The red was as vivid as the day I got the piece of wood back in 2002 (it was in a paper bag for 1 year).

Do you by any chance know the percentage of sodium hypochlorite in the 2 part bleach used by woodworkers?
 
Important????

Have we discovered something of real use here?

If the red "dye" is photoreactive, as it certainly seems to be from experience, but can be stabilized chemically (by bleach) might it also work with an actual photo-fixer? I'm thinking of "hypo" [sodium thiosulphate] which is used to "fix" photographic images in both film and prints as the next to last step in the developing process.

Any DIY photogs in the group with some spare darkroom chems to test this?

I'd assume that a problem might be removing the chemical after treatment since photo prints must be rinsed to remove the hypo lest they turn color, but that might be an issue with the bleach as well if used on a food-holding item or something that might be "abused" as a "teething ring".
 
A&P, I am not sure of the bleaching method, but I am pretty sure he is using wood bleach available from the woodworking store or Home Depot.

Barbara, I am not sure of the concentration, but I have some box elder with a little red, and some bleach, so I will give it a try.
Mark Mandell said:
Have we discovered something of real use here?
Click to expand...

"We" have not discovered anything. Kim has been doing this for a while, and I am merely reporting on it.
 
I can try the bleach treatment this weekend and let you know. I use a 2 part wood bleach I buy at the hardware. I'll bleach some and lay it out in the sun and report back next week. I do it with green wood and some extremely dry wood that I have and let you know.
 
Bill Grumbine said:
"We" have not discovered anything. Kim has been doing this for a while, and I am merely reporting on it.
Click to expand...

Thank you for so promptly pointing out my casual choice of words which didn't actually imply a real discovery by myself or anyone else here other than "discovering" the knowledge of another which you generously brought to "our" attention.

I will, however, bring the anecdotal information to someone I know to be very well versed in organic chemistry to see if some understanding of the reason for the effect can be shared with the group here. This effect might also have value when working with Ambrosia staining in maple which, while not as fragile is Box Elder's red, will also gradually fade with exposure to strong UV light.
 
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As Bill said...

...this is not entirely new. Bruce Hoover (Sanding Glove) has also been using some sort of bleaching process to "fix" the red in Box Elder for some time. I do not know the specifics though.
 
Interesting to learn that oxidation reactions may preserve the red. Adds to the speculation that the Fe++ compound is red, the Fe+++ compound rust.

Anyone care to go back to qualitative analysis and find out what's there? Too many years ago for this kid. When I learned it it was still "valence" rather than "oxidation number."
 
MichaelMouse said:
Interesting to learn that oxidation reactions may preserve the red. Adds to the speculation that the Fe++ compound is red, the Fe+++ compound rust.

Anyone care to go back to qualitative analysis and find out what's there? Too many years ago for this kid. When I learned it it was still "valence" rather than "oxidation number."
Click to expand...

Had a next-door neighbor who worked at the Exxon research facility not far from here. Guy was, I think, a Nobel laureat chemist. He moved (rats - nice guy) to head some major University Chem dept., but through him I met another PHD who's now a high-up in the Novartis US operation. I've got some nicely red box elder, and can drop him a sample, both wet-fresh and dry, to see what he comes up with. Since his family eats out of my salad bowl set and I helped him set up his home woodshop, he's a semi-fan and friend.
 
MichaelMouse said:
Interesting to learn that oxidation reactions may preserve the red. Adds to the speculation that the Fe++ compound is red, the Fe+++ compound rust.

Anyone care to go back to qualitative analysis and find out what's there? Too many years ago for this kid. When I learned it it was still "valence" rather than "oxidation number."
Click to expand...

I am not a chemist but if you drop just one little iron filing into a big vat of 12.5% sodium hypochlorite the whole thing will turn black and be "neutralized". DAMHIKT
I will qualify "neutralized". That was what the salesman told me. While I was cleaning out the container, the cotton mop started melting and the my cloths fell apart when I washed them. I decided that "neutralized" was not exactly the most accurate description.😱
 
"Neutralized?" Strange description. Clearly we're dealing with something other than elemental iron in the wood. Would be interesting to find out what, but my mass spectrometer is down at the moment, and boxelder is a rarity here, growing only as an urban weed tree.

Spiffy thought, Mark. If you get something, let us know. If not, perhaps I'll try cashing a favor at the chem department up at the University, though a place with a forestry department might be more interested in the phenonmenon than a pure chem department. Now if I were still in grad school at Syracuse....

Almost forgot, was going to answer Mark's earlier. The developer reduces the photosensitive silver halide to elemental silver, which forms the negative image. The Hypo oxidizes the unreacted silver so it can be washed away (or recovered, in big labs), leaving a clear area where the dark would have eventually formed. Or so I recall from my days in the darkroom before digital imaging. Seems to be the same even today. http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/HighSchool/Radiography/developingfilm.htm
 
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Here's a thought.

Since sodium hypoclorite [chlorine bleach] is dissolved table salt with an oxygen atom attached [NaOCl] and is an oxidiser, might the "fixing" we're talking about be the same preservative action that my Granpa got when he made his salt pork and jerky? Given the oxidation by the bleach, we would expect a NaCl residue, no?

Problem with this fantasy logic is, of course, that 2-part wood bleach is sodium hydroxide (lye) that gets mixed with hydrogen peroxide, so no "salt" or chlorine in the mix.

Okay, I'll shut up and ask my friend. 😀
 
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Sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) is a precursor to hypochlorous acid in aequeous solution, which, as you can see, is the "bleach" in common laundry stuff (HOCl), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochlorous_acid versus the peroxide or perborate/percarbonate-based "oxygen" bleach touted by that loud-talker on TV. http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/

In both cases, it is the oxygen which does the bleaching, but without the potentially deleterious action of Cl in the case of the "oxygen" bleaches. Iron chloride, perhaps in Barbara's example.

Woodworkers are best advised to avoid Cl-based bleaches, because the chlorine can make some undesirable compounds with funny colors which make an aura around the bleached areas.
 
Mark Mandell said:
.... I'm thinking of "hypo" [sodium thiosulphate] which is used to "fix" photographic images in both film and prints as the next to last step in the developing process.
.
Click to expand...

Except it's "fixing" a reaction of silver-nitrate to light.

I have not idea what it would do, but I do have serious doubts "fixer" would do anything, and trying to clean the wood afterward might be, tough.
 
MichaelMouse said:
Sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) is a precursor to hypochlorous acid in aequeous solution, which, as you can see, is the "bleach" in common laundry stuff (HOCl), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochlorous_acid versus the peroxide or perborate/percarbonate-based "oxygen" bleach touted by that loud-talker on TV. http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/

In both cases, it is the oxygen which does the bleaching, but without the potentially deleterious action of Cl in the case of the "oxygen" bleaches. Iron chloride, perhaps in Barbara's example.
Click to expand...

Michael,

Not to argue, but I think you may have the wrong bleach. Link is to the Clorox MSDS. Sodium hypochlorite with the lye stabilizer is the laundry stuff.

http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/products/msds/bleach/cloroxregularbleach0505_.pdf

I've tried it on wood (to bleach out a deck) with wannabe TSP, but didn't like it. Seemed to leave a yellow tinge. I much prefer oxalic acid.
 
n7bsn said:
Except it's "fixing" a reaction of silver-nitrate to light.

I have not idea what it would do, but I do have serious doubts "fixer" would do anything, and trying to clean the wood afterward might be, tough.
Click to expand...

That's about what I figured as well. Faulty logic, faulty theory. Thanks. 😉
 
Mark Mandell said:
Michael,

Not to argue, but I think you may have the wrong bleach. Link is to the Clorox MSDS. Sodium hypochlorite with the lye stabilizer is the laundry stuff.

http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/products/msds/bleach/cloroxregularbleach0505_.pdf

I've tried it on wood (to bleach out a deck) with wannabe TSP, but didn't like it. Seemed to leave a yellow tinge. I much prefer oxalic acid.
Click to expand...

Which is wrong? The MSDS lists <1% NaOH, which , as I read it, is an artifact of the production process, not an active ingredient or stabilizer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite

NaOH in two-part oxygen bleaches is what helps bleach the wood fiber, as in pulping.
 
MichaelMouse said:
Which is wrong?
Click to expand...

The hydrochlorus acid. As I understand it, the lye is specifically added to prevent the breakdown into the acid you're talking about. The Wiki text also talks about that use of the NaOH.

But either way, I called my friend and I'm taking a piece of red wood to breakfast with him on Saturday.

Peace
 
With the active ingredient in tenths of percent, you think "<1%" is something they added? I'll doubt it. Betting that the MSDS for the high-test lists a particular percentage.
 
Bleaching Box elder-
Frank Amigo introduced me to this 15 years ago.

At the 1996 AAW symposium the critique of the instant galley commented on how common bleached box elder was becoming.


I use the Klean Strip 2 part bleach. sand to 320 the one or two applications.
when dry a light sanding with 400 grit and apply finish

My experience is that it does seem to fix the red a bit.
The red will still turn brown over time and more rapidly in sunlight
A finish with UV inhibitor slows the red to brown.
It is extra important to keep the box elder out of sunlight

The bleach makes the red pop.

Happy turning
Al
 
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Steve,

I saw Binh airbrush red over the red. His technique of red on red preserved the color and the organic nature of the red streaks which follow the box elder beetle holes.

Binh made it look so easy. my skill with an airbrush would have red everywhere.
-al
 
Kim Blatt

I contacted Kim Blatt to ask about the process that Bill Grumbine posted about. Here is Kim's e-mail reply:

"Hi Mark,

Bill is partially correct on this one. Bleaching Bow Elder lightens the natural color of the white wood, it does not make the red streaks light-fast.

Box Elder tends to have a yellowish color which in my mind detracts from the nice bright red caused by the beetle infestation. Bleaching it strengthens the contrast between the two colors and creates a much more pleasing visual effect. The bleach may also slightly lighten the red but the increased contrast makes the red stand out more than it would in it's natural state.

I typically use Klean Strip two part wood bleach. First I apply Part A and let it sit for 20 minutes, this will turn the piece bright yellow...don't be alarmed! Then I apply part B. One treatment will do the job. As it dries, the wood will become very white. And unlike other woods, do not put the piece in the sun when you apply the bleach. DO NOT follow the instructions on the package. They will tell you to mix the two parts before applying to the wood. This is less effective than the method I described.

Here's a link on where to buy this product:

http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=953-096&gclid=CJTpxZDEjJICFQ7GGgodKTodDA

If you are concerned about preserving the red streaks, you may want to do some research on UV Inhibitors. I'm told that M. L. Campbell makes an additive for it's lacquer based finished that will protect the original wood color. Or you can try Bin Pho's method of air brushing the red with metal dyes.

One last thing, if you bleach Box Elder you probably should NOT use an oil based finish on the piece. This will bring the yellow color right back to where you started. I use clear lacquer based conversion varnish called Krystal which is made by M. L. Campbell. Whatever finish you choose, make sure it is as water white or clear as possible."

As a further update, I met with my pharma/chem friend this morning. His response was "Cool stuff!! I'll take it into the lab on Monday and let you know what we find." When I described the process of the wood's developing the stain (beetles and fungus) he got even more excited talking about organic compounds being photo-reactive outside of a living organism. Took him about 2.3 seconds to loose me in the jargon. I'll report back if/when I have more.

Kind of a shame the bleach wasn't the fixing agent "we" were hoping for. 🙁

mm
 
Bill Grumbine said:
Well all I can say then is that I remembered the conversation incorrectly. Hardly ever happens, but it does. Sorry for the misinformation.
Click to expand...

Don't think any apology is needed here, but it would have been great if it had worked out as you remembered.

Maybe my bud will come up with something. Talking with him can be a daughting experience. This is a mind that operates at "warp factor 12", and I've learned to shut up and just let him work through a question in his head. It gets a bit strange when he comes up with an answer that is the exact opposite of what I was hoping for, but still gets just as excited, and then rockets off in another direction entirely that turns out to be related anyway. In fact, I'm a little concerned because if he can't solve this Box Elder "issue" in short order, it might distract him from other stuff he really needs to do.
 
Weekend Update

So my bud just calls me to inform me as follows:

The red stain is an organic phenol-dirivative that he called a "phenolic" and is inherently unstable and takes very little energy to break down provided the right reaction can be energized ("Oh, so like you mean a little sun light, Doc?" "Yup, that'll do it for the energy input."). So now he's moving to determine the end-product (brown, formerly red, wood) to determine whether the original compound can be altered to a stable molecule while retaining the red color.

People like this scare me. I hand the guy the wood at 9:30am this morning, a Saturday, and by 5:30 in the afternoon he already knows what the red is and is moving to isolate the agent of change.

😎
 
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Well I've started my very unscientific test. I cut 4 pieces, 2 dry and 2 green and bleached the end of one of the dry pieces. I set 2 outside and the other 2 inside face down so they won't get any UV, not even from the Flourescents and stray daylight. Of course it rained all day yesterday so no sunlight but I'm sure there was some UV. Not much of a change this morning. I'll keep watching them and let you know what happens.
 
natural fading

john lucas said:
Well I've started my very unscientific test. I cut 4 pieces, 2 dry and 2 green and bleached the end of one of the dry pieces. I set 2 outside and the other 2 inside face down so they won't get any UV, not even from the Flourescents and stray daylight. Of course it rained all day yesterday so no sunlight but I'm sure there was some UV. Not much of a change this morning. I'll keep watching them and let you know what happens.
Click to expand...

How long would the natural fading take?? I have had small red box elder bowls on my "finish" table a couple of weeks where there is some daylite (sun never shines in Mich in the winter!!!!) and there is no fading. Are you expecting results in days???? Gretch
 
Gretch said:
How long would the natural fading take?? I have had small red box elder bowls on my "finish" table a couple of weeks where there is some daylite (sun never shines in Mich in the winter!!!!) and there is no fading. Are you expecting results in days???? Gretch
Click to expand...


Old darkroom trick.
John is just looking for a difference between the bleach and unbleached sections.
 
Well I will know more when I get home tonight but I expect most of the red to be gonel, in the bleached and unbleached piece. I had very little actual sun until about 2 oclock yesterday but today is totallly sunny.
From my experience unbleached Box Elder will change in just a day or 2 or direct sun. It's looking like bleached will be about the same. Indoors under direct light it will last for several years but that's really subjective.
 
Well here are the results of 2 days of sunlight. As you can see the two pieces in the middle were the ones in the sun. The two pieces on the right were green and not bleached. The two on the left were bleached on one end. As you can see the red is almost completely gone. The bleach left more contrast between the brown/red and the white but the red is still very faded.
2 days in direct sunlight is pretty harsh but it does show how quickly it can change.
Other woods are just as bad. I had some purple heart stacked up on the workbench out of direct sunlight. There were lines the very next day where the boards overlapped. Osage orange is just as bad although I kind of like the nice orange tan it goes to and it lasts a very long time in the house before it changes.
 

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i have been reading this thread with interest, i still have some of brother bob,s red ash and when i do a hf that i would use oil to finish with i would just pour a little oil inside the hf and swish around to finish the inside

question?????

with a bleached box elder (red ash) hf what is a quick and easy (foolproof) way to finish the inside

would just using the part 1 on the inside and turning it yellow be acceptable ?????

how to keep the dividing line even i have plenty of trouble painting rooms and keeping two tones much less a hf

any suggestions or comments 😕😱:cool2:
 
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