Box Elder - How to save it...

[Chuck Jones]

We recently acquired adjacent property as an investment and there are three Box Elder trees like the one in the picture that are dying and need to be removed.

I started woodturning only very recently and have never sawed or turned Box Elder. It never occurred to me that it had any use. Some of the work that I've seen that others of you have turned from it is fantastic.

I want to do the best I can to preserve the wood from these trees. I have a portable sawmill and plenty of equipment to handle the logs. But not much of a clue as to the best way to saw and store them. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

From numerous posts here I've learned to keep the pieces as long as possible and to seal the ends. That's no problem, I use anchor seal on logs I'm flat sawing. But I guess my main questions are how thick should I make the cants (slabs); should I save the outer slabs with bark and if so how thick; what about the 6"-8" limbs. In other words, where in the tree do you guys find that pretty wood with the red streaks and color variations?

Thanks.

 

[Griesbach]

Chuck,

You may wish to cut those trees as you are able to utilize them rather than cutting them all at the same time. Box Elder is in the Maple family and in fact it Canada it's called Manitoba Maple. Your thoughts on keeping the logs in long lengths and sealing are correct. You cut the turning blanks as you need them and to the sizes of the projects you wish to turn. I've had some success with the alcohol drying method but suggest you rough turn to a bit more than the usual 10% thickness as they tend to warp more than other woods before final turning. The red coloration of Box Elder is hit or miss and the causes are the subject of some discussion. It's often attributed to insects, fungus, damage and even the sex of the tree and it will eventually turn to a brown.

 

[Barbara Gill]

I agree; unless you need to cut them down, wait. It also helps to have some possible customer lined up. I have been running a sawmill since 1985 and have determined from experience that it is much better to remove the bark from any wood you plan on keeping around very long. It helps avoid bug damage.

I usually cut the logs into a variety of sizes based on the wood and different applications. I hope I am not telling you stuff you already know; if so please forgive me. It helps to keep sizes consistent in different thicknesses so that when you sticker it you can put like thicknesses on the same level. Rest assured whatever you put on the bottom will be the first wanted.😉

If you load the whole log (6-8') you can still cut a variety if you use your chainsaw.

For any blanks that will be around very long I coat end grain twice and the rest once. I sticker the blanks in layers in a old stall.

 

[George Guadiane]

I have been running a sawmill since 1985 and have determined from experience that it is much better to remove the bark from any wood you plan on keeping around very long. It helps avoid bug damage.

Box Elder gets slimy between the bark and log (I don't know if it ALWAYS does, but I nearly broke my neck climbing on some BE logs, the bark came off under my feet and I took a pretty substantial fall). It may not do that if cut at the "right time of year," but I don't know when that would be.

 

[Richard Baker]

Chuck,
Might want to try a couple end grain pieces with the smaller branches. Have done a few small vases, weed pots, from small trees. The wood is utterly featureless, but sands to a remarkably smooth surface. Might be good for pieces to be dyed, stained, or otherwise "enhanced".

Barbara,
Are you saying that it is better to leave it in log form (once cut down), or go ahead and slab it and sticker it? Given that the end grain will be sealed either way. For largest possible bowl blanks would you ever just slab out a couple inches through the center and store the "half" logs?

 

[Barbara Gill]

Barbara,
Are you saying that it is better to leave it in log form (once cut down), or go ahead and slab it and sticker it? Given that the end grain will be sealed either way. For largest possible bowl blanks would you ever just slab out a couple inches through the center and store the "half" logs?

No, I am saying that unless there is a reason to cut all the trees now, do not cut them until needed. Once a tree is cut down, the wood should be processed as the log will just degrade. As for storing half logs it would depend upon the storage facilities and size of the log. Usually it is easier to position and handle a 6'-8' log on a sawmill rather than one that can be lifted by hand. It can be tricky loading a large diameter short length log. Personally, I would cut the logs into blanks on the sawmill. There are several ways to do this. I think this is one of those discussions easier accomplished in person because of the various options depending upon facilities and equipment and size of the material.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Seems like others are answering the non-questions, so I'll attack the questions. If you've sawed lumber, you know enough to box the heart and discard it. Though with this tree there can be some real problems because it'll move around in the log. People who leave it long and harvest as they go find it easier to slab it out. You should slab it sparingly, perhaps a couple inches wide, and leave the rest as wane, because a bowl heart up will cut things away in any case. Thick as you please, realizing what those tight annual rings can do to the timber.

Debark, unless you harvest in winter, because the cambium is a food source which can lead to degrade as the fungi do their work. Winter cut might stay firm enough for seasoning.

You'll find the red stuff where the tree is stressed. Open-grown trees with large branches develop a lot of strange internal stresses, and anything that slows transport and cleansing in one area can result in mineral accumulations, though the red seems related to a fungus by most accounts. Don't know if it is the cause - fungus itself - or the effect - organic material trapped in the eddys, but it reacts like the standard ferrous/ferric state change, going to rust color with UV exposure.

Branches are a stinker to dry. Winter cut, in the bark, and slow going will save a few. Turning green and thin saves the most.

Mind that dead wood when felling. Hard hat and a companion with a cell phone are my minimum felling extras.

 

[Griesbach]

Hmmmm....so you think you answered the "question" huh Mike?😱

 

[MichaelMouse]

Hmmmm....so you think you answered the "question" huh Mike?😱

Seems so. Which of how thick, bark on/off, what about limbs and where's the color did I skip?

 

[Chuck Jones]

I wish I had known about this site and the collection of experience and knowledge seven years ago when I first bought my sawmill and started playing around with salvaging trees for lumber.

You folks are extremely helpful and before I forget it, I want to say I appreciate it very much.

Some of the points you've noted here I've learned the hard way sawing lumber. But the techniques for getting good turning stock are a new ball game for me.

I had planned to do my "Bull in the glass shop" routine and put all three of these down at the same time, but after reading your advice I'm definitely going to take only the one that is closest to dying for now. No doubt about the hardhat; those dead limbs are falling everywhere. I usually try to bump a dead tree with a dozer or skid-steer before I saw it. (I still jump out of my skin when those dead limbs hit the cab).

I have a couple low-grade cherry and walnut logs that I'm going to try to make turning stock out of also.

When we got out of cattle farming a few years ago I turned a huge pole barn into lumber storage to hoard cherry, walnut, butternut, cedar, oak, and some soft maple. (No tree on this place or neighborhood goes unwanted). Unfortunately the barn came fully stocked with a variety of insects. The lumber from the first year or two was badly damaged. I am having pretty good success now spraying newly cut lumber every couple weeks with Malathion, etc. I'm not sure that would work if much bark was left on.


Again, I appreciate all the comments and advise.

 

[waltben]

I agree with all that's been said. I can add that just one tree of the size in your photo will keep you turning for quite a while, even if you give some away. I got only the branches from a 150+ year old pecan (several were 2'+ in diameter!) several years back and still have a few blanks left over). What Michael said about heart wood is also correct. What I learned to do was that as soon as possible after getting the sealed logs home, saw them right down the middle in half (making two half-round logs). I stack them up on my driveway on 4x4's and cover with a tarp over the bark, not the ends, until I've got time to go further. I've got some oak log halves there that haven't checked much at all in three months now. Leaving the ends uncovered lets them dry through the bark a bit - covering everything for a wet summer will get you a lot of spalting (another tidbit I learned).

 

[Chuck Jones]

You folks really gave me good ideas on how to preserve box elder, but not one of you told me how bad it stinks.

 

[dkulze]

LoL!!!!!

Stuff smells like old gym socks. Will make your whole shop smell like a locker room!!!!

That being said, it turns like butter when green, it's quite transparent so the slightest figure will jump right out at you when finished (knots, branch juctures, twists, etc, use urythane oil), and the red streaks you can get (cause by, to the best of my knowledge, blue stain mold) can be awsomely bright and can be maintained by keeping out of direct sunlight and using UV resistant finish for your last few coats.

dk

P.S.(as innocuous as it looks, it's one of the few woods that can give me bad respiratory reactions. Just a bit of turning and sanding can result in sinusitis)

 

[Wyatt Holm]

Are you talking of a different box elder than I know of? I do not recall a bad smell whenever I turn it. When I turn it green, I think it smells like sugar cane.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I do agree with you. It does turn like butter when wet.
Wyatt

 

[Chuck Jones]

Box elder

Wyatt,
Not sure where you live, so there may well be two different trees called box elder. Wikipedia has a good write up that seems to fit the tree I'm talking about at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_negundo. I didn't read closely enough to see if they confirmed the bad smell, but some who have turned it and posted to this thread did confirm it.

I actually have not cut any of the three trees I mentioned in the initial post because we decided not to resell that property and I've had other priorities. I did cut up a dead one farther back on the property and have tried turning some things out of it; mostly with pretty sorry results. Seems all of that wood is either too punky or doesn't have the famous red streaks. But it certainly does STINK.

This winter I plan to fell one of the three big ones and work it up following the good advice I got from folks here earlier. Since I retired there is sometimes a gap between my planning and my doing.

 

[KurtB]

Box Elder

Chuck,
I don't know if this will shed any light, but I have not noticed any bad smell with some of the BE pieces I have turned. My underestanding is that BE is a member of the maple family, and by my reasoning, would turn somewhat similarly. I am posting this because I am at a similar latitude to you, and am a nearby neighbor (so I'm thinking we may have similar trees).

 

[Mike Brazeau]

Two years ago, I processed some fresh plain Box Elder into spindle blanks. Recently did some ornaments (see my album) with it and they were a beautiful white. The lack of prominent grain makes it almost like holly. I use cellulose sanding sealer before any other finish and that helps keep it white.

 

[GuyO]

BE Smell and the Beetles...

I had the chance to recover some BE a couple of weeks ago.. I cut up a couple of the logs so I could rough turn them -- The sawdust from ripping them with the chainsaw was really long shavings so I decided to dump them into a new flower bed by the front door that we had just reworked... The smell was "earthy" and I expected it to disappate in a couple of days --

What I didn't expect was every box elder beetle in 5 counties to show up and plaster themselves to the front of our house. - now we have to shoo them away to get into the house... :mad:

So -- be careful where you store them --

 

[Gretch Flo]

box elder bugs

They come in maple trees too. My house is plastered with them in the late summer, early fall as the sun hits around noon. Have used sevin and all it managed to do was make my mustard colored house whiteish. At the end of their season this year I got a spray that does kill them. They stink up you fingers when you use paper towels to squash them (AKA "stink bugs"). The other beast that comes in the house is called the assassin bug-larger, slimmer, and walks very slowly. Had one drop on my face in bed a week ago.😱
BTW I think my box elder odor reminds me of stale cigarette ashtrays!!!! Gretch

 

[Wyatt Holm]

Where I live is in Utah, and Box Elder is a local wood. It is a member of the maple family. I have also read that you can extract the sap and make maple syrup. It still smells like sugar cane to me.

 

[Bob Boettcher]

Regarding box elder bugs, don't waste money on nasty pesticides. Just spray them with a mild solution of dish washing liquid soap. No muss, no full, and it kills 'em dead!

Bob