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Bowls sticking togehter.

E

Ed_McDonnell

Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
643
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Location
Central Florida
I did a set of three nested bowls and used Arm-R-Seal to finish the largest one and wipe-on poly to finish the other two. The wood is monkey puzzle.

The finish does not feel even the slightest bit sticky on any of the bowls. The bowls sat on a table for a week and didn't stick to it. I nested the bowls and next thing I know they are really stuck to each other. Enough so that I could turn the largest bowl upside down and the other two would not fall out. I managed to seperate the bowls. The finish seemed hard and was not sticky when seperated.

If I nest the bowls they don't stick right away. If I come back an hour later they are still not stuck. Let them sit overnight and they bond together.

They won't stick to my furniture. They won't stick to other bowls using the same finishes.

I used gloss finishes and achieved a glass like finish on the monkey puzzle bowls. Other bowls that they won't stick to don't have the same glass like finish. Could the highly polished finishes be the problem?

I'm stumped. Any ideas?

Ed
 
Ed.

Let them sit separate for a month. Those oil finishes are still curing and getting rid of very small amounts of solvent. If, after a month, they still stick, your problem is evil spirits, possibly from long passed monkeys who couldn't solve the puzzle. 😉

mm
 
Ed, what you describe sounds a lot like blocking, a phenomenon associated with latex paint. If you paint something with latex, usually a tabletop or something similar, and then sit something else on it, not only will it stick, but it can leave an impression in the surface. We have 18" deep windowsills in our house, and they were painted with latex paint in some rooms. The paint has been dry for years, but that does not stop stuff from sticking to it.
 
Most solvent based finished will be dry to the touch in a day or so. They take a week to a month to totally cure. This could be part of the problem. Also, they could still be moving a bit, and by nesting them, they will move differently than they would if not nested.
robo hippy
 
Bill - I wonder what would cause it with these bowls? The only thing that makes these bowls different from all the other bowls I've turned is the monkey puzzle wood and the smoothness of the finish. If they stuck to something else I might suspect that it was something in the monkey puzzle wood affecting the finish. But they only stick to each other.

Ed
 
Mark - It's been about 3 weeks now, but maybe the cooler winter temps (we've had a couple days that didn't make it into the 80s) is slowing things down. I'll give them another couple weeks, then I'll consider consulting a voodoo expert about the evil monkey spirits.

Ed
 
Robo - The thing I can't figure out is why they only stick to each other. They won't stick to anything else (other bowls, furniture, wood floor, tile floor...)


Ed
 
Suspect

Ed_McDonnell said:
Robo - The thing I can't figure out is why they only stick to each other. They won't stick to anything else (other bowls, furniture, wood floor, tile floor...)


Ed
Click to expand...

The Solvent, Ed.

As the finish films cure and shrink onto the wood, they continue to release small amounts of solvent. This will tend to slightly soften the bonds between the partially polymerized oil/resin molecules. Put two such surfaces together and they'll tend to stick to each other because the solvent gets trapped between the softened films. The smoother the surfaces the greater the effect because rougher surfaces have fewer points of contact and more air between their contact points. Cold temperature can seriously slow down the cure because polymerization, like any chemical oxidation reaction, needs and generates heat. Cool it too much and the reaction stops. Put your bowls in the warm house for a solid month, and see if your problem has resolved itself. Just noticed you're in South F-L-O-R-I-D-A, so I guess cold bowls and inhibited reactions are not your problem. [he-he] But softened films would be an issue until the cure is complete.

mm

ps: Tried putting your pieces on a gloss glass surface? Don't be too surprized if they stick. I had some NC lacquered pieces that would stick to glass if left for more than an hour. Went on for almost 2 months until all the solvent evaporated. That's the last Deft I use.
 
Last edited:
Ed_McDonnell said:
Bill - I wonder what would cause it with these bowls? The only thing that makes these bowls different from all the other bowls I've turned is the monkey puzzle wood and the smoothness of the finish. If they stuck to something else I might suspect that it was something in the monkey puzzle wood affecting the finish. But they only stick to each other.

Ed
Click to expand...

Perhaps it is the pressure generated along an edge Ed. I am just wondering out loud (so to speak). We don't see a lot of monkey puzzle around here, and I do not use glossy finishes, although I am pretty good at getting things to stick together when I don't want them to! 😱 But your initial description put me in mind of what I learned about latex paint when we painted our windowsills.
 
At risk of being chided for talking about watch-building, might I suggest that like a lot of resinous trees, unless you sealed it well with a lacquer or shellac, it's going to bleed and soften oil-based finishes. http://waynesword.palomar.edu/ecoph27.htm

Of course it could be high humidity or cooler temps, but worth a thought.
 
Bill Grumbine said:
We don't see a lot of monkey puzzle around here, and I do not use glossy finishes.
Click to expand...


We don't get a lot of monkey puzzle around here either. This is the first time anybody in either of the clubs I belong to had worked with any.

Not using glossy finishes is sounding better all the time. They are really popular in our area but one by one turners in my club are getting tired of the work involved in getting a flawless high gloss finish and turning to other finishes.

Ed
 
MichaelMouse said:
At risk of being chided for talking about watch-building, might I suggest that like a lot of resinous trees, unless you sealed it well with a lacquer or shellac, it's going to bleed and soften oil-based finishes. http://waynesword.palomar.edu/ecoph27.htm

Of course it could be high humidity or cooler temps, but worth a thought.
Click to expand...

Michael - Thanks for the link, it was interesting reading. The pictures of the thick white epoxy like sap oozing are a little decieving. The wood itself is not resinous. All the thick sap is in the layer between the wood and the bark (the phloem?).

I've never had a problem with Norfolk Island Pine and I just finished the monkey puzzle the same way. Maybe there is something in the monkey puzzle wood that is messing with the finish, but I can't imagine what it is.

I decided to try a new solution. I waxed the bottom of the two smaller bowls. I've nested them and will check them tomorrow to see if the wax cures the sticking problem.

Ed
 
Hope that works, though it's not necessarily sap, but terpenes and other oils in conifers that can cause the problem.
 
Mark - Those monkeys are still fighting me. They just don't want to be nested. They are very happy sitting individually on whatever I put them on, so I've decided to stop fighting them. Who wants nested bowls anyway?

Ed
 
Source of Monkey Puzzle

Ed,

Are the monkeys still not liking each other? It has been 8 more months.🙂

Can you provide us with your source for Monkey Puzzle? I am interested in possibly obtaining some.

Thanks

John🙂
 
John - The monkeys have not played together in the last 8 months. I'll put them together tonight and see if they get along.

One of the local botanical gardens that our club supports lost their monkey puzzle tree to a combination of Hurricane Wilma and a subsequent lightning strike and they gave us the wood. It was the first and last time I've come across monkey puzzle down here.

It's native to the higher elevations of Chile. It's widely planted around the world as landscape specimens. There are reportedly more monkey puzzle trees in the UK than there are in Chile. It's supposed to be pretty common in Northern California so you might try contacting one of the clubs out there.

Ed
 
John - Test results: After sitting overnight, the monkey puzzle bowls still stick together. They don't stick to furminture, even after months of sitting. They don't stick to other bowls.

It's not really a problem. I just don't display them nested.

Ed
 
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