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Bowl Gouges explained?

E

erimille

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I just got a very good deal on a 1/2" conover 'side grind bowl gouge'. Such a good deal in fact I didn't have the time to actually figure out what it was I actually bought 🙂

A bit of research and this side grind gouge looks very similar to the P&N "jenson grind" [1] and the "celtic grind" [2]. Can someone explain the differences between the 'side', 'jenson' and 'celtic' grinds (if there is one) and how these compare to the standard bowl gouge?

Also, any details on sharpening these 'side grinds' are appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

--eric

[1] http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?DeptID=4038&FamilyID=5191
[2] http://www.toolpost.co.uk/system/index.html
 
Jensen is a new one, they are all the same though. Ellsworth or irish grind.

I would reccomend the Ellsworth video on using a sidegrind gouge. Also look on the Woodcraft site and there is instructions on using the Ellsworth grinding jigs. There are also several around on using the Wolverine system to sharpen it. There is a bit of magic to the gouge, once mastered, on how3 versatile it is.
Enjoy -
 
All those grinds are essentially the same. The differences appear to be how far back from the "tip" the "wings" are ground. I grind mine about 3/4" back from the "tip." I use the Tru-Grind sharpening system. It's available from woodturner's catalog.
 
arbud said:
All those grinds are essentially the same. The differences appear to be how far back from the "tip" the "wings" are ground. I grind mine about 3/4" back from the "tip." I use the Tru-Grind sharpening system. It's available from woodturner's catalog.
Click to expand...

Thanks Steve and Arbud for the reply. I suspected as much about these being the same, but certainly appreciate the confirmation. I also appreciate the suggestions on sharpening.

If I may, one last question.... whats the difference between this sort of grind and a 'normal' bowl gouge grind? Seems it would be able to produce a finer cut, with minimum flex in the shaft. Is this correct?

Is this something that might replace the 'standard' bowl guage or is this used in addition?

--eric
 
Actually, it's a bit more than just the length of the side grind. When you do the side grind, you generally use a jig which includes a bottom part that holds the base of a device you attach to the tool (check out various sites on using the Wolverine Jig and you'll get the sense of what I'm talking about). The grind can be varried by the angle of the tool you attach to it, how close to the tip you attach it, the length of the brace rod on the tool, the angle of the initial grind, etc.

Basically, what you are controlling is the angle and shape of the front edge, how much the wings roll over towards the center, and the length of the wings. Small differences can make large differences in how the tool cuts. One example is how aggressively the wings roll over toward the center.

When you look at a fingernail ground bowl gouge (this would include all the ones mentioned in your post and some others) from above, you'll notice that some of them have a visible bevel on the sides that gets smaller and smaller until it disappears close to the tip. This allows you to engage different amounts of edge depending on how much you roll the tool and lets you make inside, curved cuts with minimal risk of catch because only the edge exposed by the roll will engage. The angle of this rollover bevel changes how fast you engage, how much you can engage at one time, depth of cut, how sharp a curve you can cut, ability to cut inside a hollow form, etc. A flat wing, with no rollover, would allow you to press the gouge directly into a piece and cut an ever deepening groove. Even a slight rollover would stop the tool from cutting any deeper than the exposed tip's edge and would leave you with a shallow groove and very consistant depth of groove. Rotating this tool to either side would engage more edge on that side and cut the groove deeper and towards that side.

It's wierd and complicated but real, and I've found that small changes in grind really can make a huge difference in how the tool performs. I'm not even going to talk about secondary bevels, curved wings, shear cutting, etc.

Dietrich
 
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erimille said:
If I may, one last question.... whats the difference between this sort of grind and a 'normal' bowl gouge grind? Seems it would be able to produce a finer cut, with minimum flex in the shaft. Is this correct?
Click to expand...
I assume you are talking about in use. I would suggest the Mahoney/Stuart video which tackles that subject really well. (Two ways to make a bowl).

They are used quite differently but either in the right hands , works excellent.
It is mainly a matter of preference. I use the side grind for %90 of my work, but still have a conventional grind for certain roughing situations.
 
A very important part of any grind on a bowl gouge is the angle on the nose grind. In the hands of experienced turners that can and does, vary from 40 deg. to 75 deg.. I believe that Ellsworth recommends a 65 deg. nose grind. Stuart Batty uses a 40 deg. nose grind. The important part is that any grind from 40 deg. to 75 deg can be correct. It's an individual thing. That grind will have a large part in how the tool is correctly used. I myself use a 60 deg. grind on my 1/2-inch gouges and a 45 deg.grind on my 1/4-inch gouge,(which I use a lot). They are used in different ways, however.
 
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Wally Dickerman said:
A very important part of any grind on a bowl gouge is the angle on the nose grind. In the hands of experienced turners that can and does, vary from 40 deg. to 75 deg.. I believe that Ellsworth recommends a 65 deg. nose grind. Stuart Batty uses a 40 deg. nose grind. The important part is that any grind from 40 deg. to 75 deg can be correct. It's an individual thing. That grind will have a large part in how the tool is correctly used. I myself use a 60 deg. grind on my 1/2-inch gouges and a 45 deg.grind on my 1/4-inch gouge,(which I use a lot). They are used in different ways, however.
Click to expand...

Thanks all! I have to admit however, this is starting to sound a bit more like art than science. I didn't quite expect that! 🙂

--eric
 
Best $3.95 spent

Woodturning notes from Allan Batty - best $3.95 I could have spent to figure some of this out. Detailed enough to be useful, and short enough for those (like me) with poor attention spans and never read directions 🙂.

More specifically, regarding angles of Bowl Gouges, these 'notes' help me help interpret the responses so far I've read that referred to various angles as "its a matter of preference".

Scanning Batty's notes it seems clear that different angle will produce different cuts (not surprizing). What I missed however, was that different angles will also determine the types of bowls you can make. Grinding at 30 deg for example allows one to cut more shallow bowls, grinding at 60 deg allows for the possibility of more deeper bowls, etc.

As he puts it... "an angle of between 35-55 would be a good working compromise".

He doesn't mention anything about side grinding gouges, but I've more than got my money's worth with this little gem. Highly recommended reading!

Anyway, thanks again for all the help... keep it coming!

--eric
 
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Nose angles with the Oneway Vari-grind

how does one use the oneway jig to change the nose angle?? is this the depth - length of gouge extending through the vari-grind? I think they say to use 1 5/8", so a longer distance will make a shallower angle? Any examples.
 
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Dr_dewey said:
how does one use the oneway jig to change the nose angle?? is this the depth - length of gouge extending through the vari-grind? I think they say to use 1 5/8", so a longer distance will make a shallower angle? Any examples.
Click to expand...
You can change the angle of the Oneway Varigrind by adjusting the wing nut and moving it. The Oneway though has multiple sciences involved. You can adjust the arm in or out which will adjust the angle, move the angle on the jig, or adjust the "stick out", the amount of gouge that protrudes from the Varigrind.
All of those will adjust some other geometry as well (for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction). Most likely, they change the amount and angle of the roll for the sides or iff you roll further, the length of the wings.
The other option is to get a 3rd party Wolverine add on like Don Geiger sells This will also adjust the height of the jig in the pocket.
http://www.dongeiger.com/geigerssolutions.html
His is based on replicating the Ellsworth grind, using the Ellsworth jig and not the varigrind.
I did write an article on duplicating the angle using the Varigrind and all you would need to do is use the tool as it comes from the factory for setup.
You can see that article here http://www.turningwood.com/howtoo.htm
 
I believe the nose angle on the wolverine system controlled by the distance of the extension arm from the wheel (on the wolverine system, not the varigrind). The side angles I believe are manipulated by changing the angle of the leg on the vari-grind.
 
bevel angle

Just the other day - changed the vari-grind to get more of a side grind and didn't adjust the wolverine arm, the gouge would not cut, the angle on the bevel was very steep. Moving the arm in towards the grinder proved your points and eventualy was able to get an angle close to 65 degrees. It made a huge difference in the performance of the gouge.
 
Ellsworth Grind

I have and use the Wolverine/Vari-grind, but for my 1/2" bowl gouges I bought and use the Ellsworth jig. Jig comes with clear set-up instructions that are simple to do. Yes, I had to modify the elevation of the Wolverine slide at bit, and made a spacer jig to set distance and compensate for wear on the wheels, but that jig is just way, way faster than fiddling with adjustments and angles all the time. Takes no more than 30 sec. each to bring my 3 gouges back to the "perfect Ellsworth" grind. I can still adjust the vari-grind for the other tools that I use it on like the big Glaser and smaller detail gouges.

Mark
 
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erimille said:
Thanks all! I have to admit however, this is starting to sound a bit more like art than science. I didn't quite expect that! 🙂

--eric
Click to expand...

That's what happens when you introduce a large number of variables. As the roll on grind continuously changes the sharpness angle of the edge, and the shape of the piece changes as well, you have to keep reminding yourself that your objective is to cut across the grain for cleanest cut.

For me that means hogging with hefty "bowl" gouges, and trimming with flatter formed spindle types which allow a more consistent gouge position from rim to bottom by referencing along the curve of the bevel to determine the cut angle. With four bowl gouges, I have two grinds. Long ears on the big ones which will hog broadly across the face of the piece, and short on the ones where I need a steep bevel to work inside narrower places.

Hey, there are bowls where I never even lift a bowl gouge.
 
Hi Michael.

I think you and Dr. Dewey hit the nail on the head. There's a pretty much infinite range of angles, rollovers, wing lengths, etc that you can achieve and each will cut differently. My club recently had a demo with Al Stirt (good demonstrator, by the way) and he uses bowl gouges with several grinds also. He had moderately long wings for outside work and hogging and has a gouge with a standard (not fingernail) grind and a secondary bevel for his inside finishing cut. Tricky to use (catches much more easilly than with a fingernail grind) but, boy, does it turn out a nice surface and thread thin shavings.

For most folks, I'd recommend an in-between grind, with moderate wings and a good amount of rollover to reduce catching. Not as good at hogging but will still take out material quickly. Not the best for finish cuts but will get you to sandpaper range pretty effectively. Keep the grind very consistant over time and get very used to it till you don't have to really think about your cuts anymore. Then get a second gouge and start playing with the angles, wings, etc., prefferably on wood you're not too attached to.

And remember, hook up with friends who've been sharpening and using it for a while and you'll increase your skill quickly and with minimal damage.

And really good thread y'all.

dietrich
 
multiple gouges ad other things

i have one (1) 5/8" oneway cpm bowl gouge - its a double ended version but if i went with 2 different grinds one on each end - don't think spending the time switching is worth it. That said would like several with specific grinds as mentioned for the tasks at hand. Also would like several chucks each with a different # jaw. Then I would like several smaller gouges with above grinds. Next.....

But then those talented Guys have all the right tools, and they make it look so easy.
 
How about a Photo

Boy for us new guys on the block a Photo would be nice. You guys have so much good Info, Thanks

Ray Ebersole
 
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