Big screen TV or projector - what you see from the last Row.

[hockenbery]

To me, the most important element of a video of a demonstration- it must show detail to the person in the last row.

The flat screen TVs produce superb images for a low cost, are semi mobile, and they work very well for those within the viewing distance of the TV. A 60” TV works really well out to anout 30 feet and reasonably well out 40-45 feet. Someone at 60 feet won’t see details or be able to read PowerPoint slides. The suggested viewing distance for TV is 8H that is 8 times the height. A 60” monitor is 31 inches high so 248 inches 21 feet is best.

we all know small things are harder for us to see the further away we get from the object and at some distance we can no longer see the object. This is true for objects on a screen too.

An object that is 1” on a 60” tv will be 2” on a screen projected image 5 ft high.
The average person can see a 1” object about 30 feet away and a 2” object from about 60 feet away.

Here are a couple of screen shots from a demo video that compare how far away you can see detail on a 60” monitor and a projected image.

In the first photo there is nice shot showing the bevel riding cut removing a 1/2”of wood as the bowl is being shaped. On a 60” monitor a viewer further away than 37 feet will not see the tip of the gouge distinctly and not see the bevel contact. On 5 ft and 6 ft projected images the viewers can see up to 72 and 86 feet away respectively.
My first negative experience with TVs was at SWAT in 2014 - a nice lady was sitting in the front row as I was getting ready to repeat a hollowing demo. She said “ I had to come back I was sitting in the back row and I couldn’t see anything.” TVs were too small to see from the back. TVs have a viewing distance. Fill the screen with one letter you can read it across a football field. Put small letters on it and you have a distance limit base on the letter height.

The bottom line is if you have a big room a projector can be seen by all if you project big enough.
You can also cover a big room with multiple TVs -2, 4, 6, or more but a lot of TVs can make a lot of problems with set up storage and cable runs.

We all see at different level and your eyesight may be better or worse. Measure the height of news drag on
And see how far away you can read it.

 

[Mark Wollschlager]

Good points.
Multiple flat screens set back from the front are, to me, a better solution than big screens at the front.
The brightness of the TV's allows the room to stay comfortably lit and is less susceptible to wash out.
In a perfect world the room lighting would be totally controllable, in reality not so much.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Our club tried to make a projection system work for several years and our members hated it with a passion. We finally had all that we could stand and since the club had the financial resources we upgraded to a high end video system with two large screen LED displays (one each on the left and right side of the room). To say that the improvement was amazing would be an understatement. My club has over two hundred members, but we usually have less than a hundred in attendance for most monthly meetings.

 

[Richard Prima]

I'm a fan of big TV's and would suggest going for the highest resolution and size you can afford (although if you can use two - front/middle maybe smaller is OK. 4K is amazing and cameras that produce that detail are more available now. Plus, with 4k video, one can capture still photos that are very good.

 

[hockenbery]

Good points.
Multiple flat screens set back from the front are, to me, a better solution than big screens at the front.
The brightness of the TV's allows the room to stay comfortably lit and is less susceptible to wash out.
In a perfect world the room lighting would be totally controllable, in reality not so much.

If you have a decent projector and no light shining on the screen the projection screen is easy to see with full room lights. I Visit quite a few chapters where they have full room lights with a projection screen.
Your comments and those of @Bill Boehme are quite common so there are lots of clubs that had bad experiences.
Since projectors work well in many installations. I suspect the bad experiences are due to poor projectors or lights shining on the screen.

That said if The last row of seats is less than 40 -45 feet from a tv, go with the TVs.
I would not use TVs if you have rows of seats beyond the 45 ft distance from the closest Tv.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

To me, the most important element of a video of a demonstration- it must show detail to the person in the last row.

The flat screen TVs produce superb images for a low cost, are semi mobile, and they work very well for those within the viewing distance of the TV. A 60” TV works really well out to anout 30 feet and reasonably well out 40-45 feet. Someone at 60 feet won’t see details or be able to read PowerPoint slides. The suggested viewing distance for TV is 8H that is 8 times the height. A 60” monitor is 31 inches high so 248 inches 21 feet is best.

we all know small things are harder for us to see the further away we get from the object and at some distance we can no longer see the object. This is true for objects on a screen too.

An object that is 1” on a 60” tv will be 2” on a screen projected image 5 ft high.
The average person can see a 1” object about 30 feet away and a 2” object from about 60 feet away.

Here are a couple of screen shots from a demo video that compare how far away you can see detail on a 60” monitor and a projected image.
View attachment 25199 View attachment 25200
In the first photo there is nice shot showing the bevel riding cut removing a 1/2”of wood as the bowl is being shaped. On a 60” monitor a viewer further away than 37 feet will not see the tip of the gouge distinctly and not see the bevel contact. On 5 ft and 6 ft projected images the viewers can see up to 72 and 86 feet away respectively.
My first negative experience with TVs was at SWAT in 2014 - a nice lady was sitting in the front row as I was getting ready to repeat a hollowing demo. She said “ I had to come back I was sitting in the back row and I couldn’t see anything.” TVs were too small to see from the back. TVs have a viewing distance. Fill the screen with one letter you can read it across a football field. Put small letters on it and you have a distance limit base on the letter height.

The bottom line is if you have a big room a projector can be seen by all if you project big enough.
You can also cover a big room with multiple TVs -2, 4, 6, or more but a lot of TVs can make a lot of problems with set up storage and cable runs.

We all see at different level and your eyesight may be better or worse. Measure the height of news drag on
And see how far away you can read it.
View attachment 25201

Very good valuable information! Thanks for doing the footwork for all of us. I believe @AlanZ and I should save this to have it as reference, as part of the package of info needed when a club is setting up to start receiving live remote demos or simply upgrading their video system. Then again, Alan probably knows this...

 

[Charlie Knighton]

I believe the Utah regional symposium is one of the best......the gym layout accompaniates a large # of turners with a view from the back......some prefer the back instead of front row as you can stand or sit or a portion of both. The curtains between the rotations are key......they must have been in the design of the building as a venue for gatherings.

 

[hockenbery]

Very good valuable information! Thanks for doing the footwork for all of us. I believe @AlanZ and I should save this to have it as reference, as part of the package of info needed when a club is setting up to start receiving live remote demos or simply upgrading their video system. Then again, Alan probably knows this...

When using TV the camera operator should compensate by zooming tighter to get larger images. Especially if there are people sitting in the 30-45 foot range. This has the disadvantage of loosing the perspective of what is happening to the form and of body movement. Also major disturbance if the turner’s shoulder comes into view.
For example the bowl shaping screen shot the camera needs to zoom tighter to show the bevel contact. This will either cut off part of the bowl or the hand position on the tool. Neither desirable but all of woodturning is a trade offs

Here is what it might look like to get the shot visible at 70 feet on the 60” TV.


During my demo setup, I do a preview of where I will be turning with the camera operator so they can plan what shots to try to capture. We coordinate things like - I have to wait at a spot in the demo while the tripod moves.
Recently did a demo where they had a cool professional ceiling mounted boom for the camera. When I got to the preview part about turning from the headstock side - the camera guy said the boom won’t go there. The low tech overhead cameras or tripod held cameras all get that shot well. The $$$ boom looked pretty but all it could do was show me behind the bowl leaving the audience to imagine what the tool was doing.

Sometimes we are more concerned with how good the video is than we are with what it shows us.
I would much rather the audience see a detail than a high quality landscape shot.

 

[Mark Wollschlager]

The camera operator is the key element, working with the demonstrator.
If the layout of the demo area does not allow the camera operator to 'get the shot', there is compromise.
If the demonstration is not conducive to a video presentation, compromise again.
Catering to the last row by just using a bigger display gives those in the closer seats ( but not a direct view of the demo ) an overwhelming experience.
The quality of the image is very important, and as Al noted, the framing of the image in the context of the demo is more important.
Adding to the mix, is the desire of some to see more body motion ( tool grip, tool presentation ) than just the tool tip on the wood.
Sometimes creation of the form, observing the emerging silhouette, is more important to the demonstrator than tool work.
The 'live' factor creates opportunity as well as complication. Having a monitor for the demonstrator to help direct the camera work is a big plus.
We would all like to see a produced presentation, but as with our choice of natural materials as a medium, we have to ad lib through the process.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

A point on using a TV. We did for a couple years and have to move the TV to storage after each meeting. In handling the TV somehow it was damaged so that there were lines on the screen on one side. So I would say TV is great if you have it in a fixed mount, but the constant moving will cause them to fail i n time.