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Big Bowls

D

Donovan Bailey

Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
267
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Location
Gainesville, VA
There was some crosstalk a couple of days ago here that has been bugging me...so I thought that I would get some clarification/education. The discussion centered around the stated fact that "big bowls don't sell." I think that Odie was part of the discussion. Anyhow I'd like to know if there some consensus on this...and, if so, the reasons that you think big bowls don't sell. Price? Effort to make one? What is the perfect size bowl that sells? I make a bunch of little/smaller things too...but my real enjoyment is putting a big hunk of 20"+ wood on the lathe and take it through the entire process. I don't sell my stuff but when I gift my vessels most folks seem to naturally choose the larger ones over the smaller versions. On many occasions I have offered a friend, neighbor, or relative the option to "pick one" and I can't remember a single case where they selected the smaller vessel. Thoughts?
 
I too enjoy putting a large chunk of wood on the lathe once in a while. I turned a couple large bowls (22" and 24") recently and they are sitting in my garage. I simply just don't have anywhere in the house to put something so large. And I don't know anyone that has room in their house so that I can gift them. I suspect that space to store or display a rather large bowl would be one reason they don't sell, but I don't sell so I could be wrong. Still, they're fun to turn and I'm sure I'll turn another.
 
OK I don't sell often in the art market so take this with a grain of salt. I have turned maybe 6 bowls over 16". I can't even give them away. People have told me they like things that either fit on a shelf to show off, or fit in a cupboard. Fortunately most of my bowls are 8" or under and I have no problem selling or giving them away. I did just finish a 17" bowl and my new wife claimed it so at least that one is gone. I don't know what she will do with it and I"ll bet it gets regifted somewhere down the line.
 
I was very fortunate to have a great run on 18" bowls. A patron asked me to start making them and he would tell me when to stop. Paid for a 2436 Oneway lathe with that one request. Likely won't ever happen again. This picture is just a part of the project. I'm still selling the bowls that I cored from those huge blanks!
 

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I think bowls between 12" and 14” sell really well. Bowls larger than 16” take a very large table to work well — like sized for 8-12 chairs. Bigger than 20” and you’re talking honkin’ big table! Generally folks in the market for a large bowl are looking to use it for fruit or salads around a 4-6 person table and 12-14” just seems to work well for that.
 
Richard Coers said:
I was very fortunate to have a great run on 18" bowls. A patron asked me to start making them and he would tell me when to stop. Paid for a 2436 Oneway lathe with that one request. Likely won't ever happen again. This picture is just a part of the project. I'm still selling the bowls that I cored from those huge blanks!
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I'd swear that was Sweetgum...and also looks like you did it justice. Nice work.
 
I did a few of what I called free standing salad bowls. Basically it was a large salad bowl sitting on a Windsor style stool that was cupped to hold the bowl. I sold both at shows but those were the only 2 large bowls I sold.
 
Measure your kitchen cabinets and see what size bowl will fit. My guess is that not many have cabinets that could accept a 22" bowl, a lot wouldn't take an 18" bowl. 12 to 15" bowls sell okay but not much luck going bigger.
 
One market for big bowl is restaurants.

Big pieces tend to dominate a room unless the room is big

When Frank Sudol started doing his tall hollow forms he said something like - all these people are buying these rally big houses and I intend to help them fill them up.
 
Large bowls sell more as a “novelty” piece mainly meant for display often as a table centre piece.
I’ve sold a few over the years but as many have mentioned they are a difficult sell, unless you can make them into an “art piece” such as Chris Ramsey does with his footed bowls.
 
I don't do big bowls as I don't have the accessibility to get the wood (I am legally blind and don't drive so I can't easily go get it). At art/craft shows that I have done, not many bowls of any size have sold. I have better success with yarn bowls, coffee mugs, and gift items such as wine stoppers, bird house ornaments, etc. But, I do follow a guy on instagram - BigAshBowls. Big bowls seem to be about all I see him post photos of. He even posts photos of the buyer holding the big bowls. I think he's from Salt Lake City. I'm from northern Indiana so maybe it's a location thing.
 
Well, to me, anything over the 14 to 16 inch diameter size is a specialty market. When I first started, I was limited to 12 inch diameter, and people kept wanting bigger. I probably do and did just about the same $ amount of sales between personal sized bowls and plates as I did family sized bowls and platters. There is a turner up in Washington, Vernon Liebrant (you can google him, lots of images) who specializes in big bowls, up to 36 or so inch diameter and he has developed a market for them. For those who want huge salad bowls, they either have huge families and/or do a lot of entertaining.

robo hippy
 
john lucas said:
I did a few of what I called free standing salad bowls. Basically it was a large salad bowl sitting on a Windsor style stool that was cupped to hold the bowl. I sold both at shows but those were the only 2 large bowls I sold.
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I can't let it go, John....what is a "Windsor style stool?" I'm familiar with a Windsor style chair so are you saying that you built some sort of stick frame for the bowl to sit?
 
Donovan Bailey said:
I can't let it go, John....what is a "Windsor style stool?" I'm familiar with a Windsor style chair so are you saying that you built some sort of stick frame for the bowl to sit?
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Not John but here it is.
Oct09_Page_26_Image_0001.jpg
 
I have no problem selling my Koa salad bowls, the bigger, the better. My large Kumana calabashes have to be big, and I sell a few each year, I keep charging more, they take time and a huge crotch. I tend to agree, for the galleries smaller items sell better. Bill mentions checking the size of your cupboard, here we say, if it doesn't fit in their carry on luggage it will take longer to sell. It's also seasonal, most snowbirds are on a budget, retired folks on a single income. I do well with my local word of mouth clients that come to my shop, those that take the time to see what it takes to turn a big calabash, won't complaint paying $2000 or more for them.
 
I like turning big bowls - its just fun. Selling is another matter.

My day job is in FinTech, (financial technology). Primarily I work with traders, almost all of whom make over $250,000 a year. So I have access to some of the top 2% of the income earners in the country. Prime clientele.

Many of them know what my hobby is, so I bring in the nice pieces to the office, for exposure and occasionally sales.
I quickly found out, that even in this income level, there is an absolute ceiling on how much people will pay for a "salad bowl", "fruit bowl" etc.
No matter how beautiful, big, centre piece or not - very few people will pay more than $250 for a functional bowl.

(Plus there's tons of commercial competition from Ikea, Asia, online: eBay, ETSY etc.)

However, if its non-functional, dramatically so, then it's no longer a salad bowl. Its ART!!!
The ultimate example (not mine!)
vortex.jpg

Then people's concept of value/spending is very different.

Now I can slap a big price tag on it and get serious looks.
So, the LESS functional it is, the MORE I can charge.
 
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I have been telling my wife that for years "You are a priceless work of art" I hope she does not catch on to the true meaning. :-)
 
Gerald When I say Windsor style I simply mean the legs and seat are similar and assembled like a Windsor chair. I can't find the photo of that salad bowl stool but here are some of my stools. The black one in the back is very similar to the one I made for the bowl except that it was Ambrosia maple and not painted.
 

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Big bowls are sort of like thin-wall bowls......very few people appreciate the work and skill involved in making them.....except other turners. After having my Etsy shop for the past 6 years, I can tell you there definitely are potential buyers who are running searches for big bowls. The down side to that, is they seldom make a purchase. Since there are people who want a big bowl, it's my opinion that big bowls that are quickly produced will be the most likely to actually sell. There are several very successful turners who make and sell big salad bowls on Etsy, and the most distinctive features of these bowls is they are quickly produced, simple shapes, and power sanded very aggressively. This isn't what I would want to do, but if the object was to tap into that market, it seems to be the way to do it......:D

It was John Jordan who made the statement about big bowls being "an albatross around his neck". I think he was right!

-----odie-----
 
If your going to sell anything you have to answer some basic questions and tailor your product to those answers. Who are my buyers?, what is my price point or range? , how am I going to market my product?. I sell my bowls in the Charleston Farmers Market, Charleston, SC. This market runs from April to November, and then 3 Christmas markets in December. It is Saturday from 8-2pm. I go everyother Saturday. This market is rated 3rd best in the country. We get about 5,000 people in a tipical day. 90% are tourist. When I started selling in this market years ago, I tried art pieces, segmented turnings, hollow forms and kitchen stuff. It was apparent that my market was the open bowl. I sell about 20-30 bowls that are 18 to 24" in size per year. In 2018 I sold 281 bowls. I usually have to ship them and I charge for packing and shipping. There is no set answer about what size bowl to sell. It depends on your market.78A84FB6-.jpg
 
Paul M. Kaplowitz said:
If your going to sell anything you have to answer some basic questions and tailor your product to those answers.
Who are my buyers?,
what is my price point or range? ,
how am I going to market my product?.View attachment 28169
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Hi Paul,

As you say, answering these questions is the most important thing.
(and continuously re-evaluating)

My wife is a painter, not professional, but very seriously considering it. So we did these evaluations for her work.

Markets / shows like you mention can be very good. And some are a waste of time. I found its a matter of evaluating them to see which work for you.
In downtown Toronto, there is purchasing power (some of highest incomes in the country) and numbers (https://torontooutdoor.art/ will get over 200,000 visitors - entrance is free, its in the main city square and at a time when there's tons of US tourists.)

Even that is no guarantee of success. It needs the price point: so affordable but not too cheap. (some of the hosting fees on shows are expensive, this one is $300)
The marketing is important. My wife has had huge success here, but at a lower price point (average $150). People want to take pieces home immediately.

https://www.theartistproject.com/en/index.html is the opposite.
About 50,000 visitors, over 4 days, with an entrance fee of $35. People come to buy and are serious. This is very different clientele.
This is where gallery owners come to find new talent.

So the price point is MUCH higher. My wife averages $1800. Don't bother with small stuff its a waste of time.
(and she needs to cover a hosting fee of $4000 for the weekend)

A very professional website helps your credibility and image to support the sales indirectly. But have only led to a few sales directly.

In my personal opinion, bowls or any handmade woodwork (over $50) is something that should be seen in person. Touched, held, examined. Until the prospective buyer does that, there is little appreciation for the quality of the results. There's too much competition, from low income countries (and the buyer has no way to determine quality). This is the wrong clientele. I.e. I personally have no interest in selling online. This is a price point where i would need to crank out product at $4 / hr, which I can't afford.

For my work, I don't yet have enough time/capacity to sell in these quantities. And have had no issues selling large bowls to personal contacts.
 
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Hey Olaf, It sounds like you have a superb market. Price point is a learning curve if you have nothing to compare your work to in the same market. We had our first market 6 years ago and sold 28 bowls. Too cheap. We doubled our prices, next market sold 20 bowls. Too cheap. Doubled them again. We were prepared to drop the prices if they were above the market. Next market we sold 13 bowls and we held our prices for that year. Every year we have gone up in price about 10%. I run Excel spread sheets and can see a comparison of markets month to month and year to year. We also use Square to accept charge cards and the reports we get from them also tell us how many new customers and how many repeats bought from us.
 
We are converging on a little personal philosophy here, and that's a good thing......as long as it can be understood that what's good for me, isn't necessarily good for anyone else.....or maybe nobody at all! :) Some of those impressionist artists were living in absolute squalor.....but, they were reaching for something that was more important to them.....than perhaps even life itself! Most of us here aren't that far off the deep end, but I'll bet a few of us have beginnings that are based on a pure driving force not associated with capitalistic motivations, but a desire to be as good at something, as we can drive ourselves to be.....while we are still occupants of this planet.

My word......I can go off the deep end sometimes! :eek:

olaf Vogel said:
In my personal opinion, bowls or any handmade woodwork (over $50) is something that should be seen in person. Touched, held, examined. Until the prospective buyer does that, there is little appreciation for the quality of the results. There's too much competition, from low income countries (and the buyer has no way to determine quality). This is the wrong clientele. I.e. I personally have no interest in selling online. This is a price point where i would need to crank out product at $4 / hr, which I can't afford.
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I think you might be cutting yourself a little short here, Olaf. There are other online crafts markets, and Etsy is the overwhelmingly largest.....plus, it's international. Etsy is now sold on the stock market. I just checked, and a search on Etsy for "wood bowls" came back with 43,000 hits. The competition is fierce on there, but you do have a great advantage over international sellers, in that the shipping from those places is incredibly high. (We're not talking about a middle-man who purchased 500 bowls from a sweatshop in the Philippines, and resells them here......these are individuals making items at home, and selling on Etsy.)

You are absolutely correct that there is a distinct disadvantage to selling online.....because pictures aren't even close to how well a high quality item will appeal, as opposed to how that item will impact your senses when it's in your hands. That won't change, but there is that thing called "customer reviews" that will help. If the quality in your work is there, many customers will recognize that, and give you great reviews. Eventually your reviews will "connect" with those who are unfamiliar with the quality of your work.......and, they will take the chance of making a purchase. It all takes time to build your reputation, and if you persevere, it can be done.

====================================

Now......Paul Kaplowitz has got it together !........and a great example for any turner who wants to sit at a booth and strike up conversations with strangers. I'm just not the right personality to do that......but, if you fit the profile, it would be great. Besides that, you have to pack up all your bowls and travel to shows, or markets. I'm not into doing that either.....but, again.....if it fits your personality or willingness, it's a great way to market your bowls......if it works!

-----odie-----
 
Hi Paul,

What you describe, is IMO a common and very rational way to enter the market. Price it lower, ensure sales, get the confidence that your work will sell. Then raise prices until you are getting the price / sales ratio that you want.

There's a local artist, a former engineer, that also treats his artwork like a very professional business. Spreadsheet analysis of galleries, shows, prices vs quantity. His point to us was, if you are a professional, then you need to work at it. Keeping lists of past clients, mail outs, website updates, previews of upcoming shows, serious marketing. He's a great source of business guidance and has become a good friend.

Also a local group The Artist Network, is a group of artists that help each other in making connections and helping people bring their visions to market.

Odie,

I have been a seller on eBay since 1995 (in a completely different market - aftermarket performance auto parts), and admittedly not tried ETSY. But my experience has left me jaded about these venues. There is an opportunity, global reach and huge customer base. And there are possibilities as a result. But for me, the issue is price point.

There are lots of artisans in Asia, Central and South America. Their cost base is totally different. An open shop, no walls, dust removal is a nice warm trade wind, the lathe is an old truck axel, employees are not covered by OSHA, average income is $5000 / year.

And they have access to AWESOME hardwoods. 5 years ago I was in Venezuela, on the way to Angela Falls. They had huge logs of purple heart and many other heavy oily hardwoods, very cheap. Their material is gorgeous.

In terms of quality, much of it is not the type that we aspire to. So its more "rustic".
Still often very beautiful. And extremely saleable. I've bought quite a few of them, because they are so cheap.

But there is no way I'd want to compete against them.
:)
 
Paul, is that a VB36 you are standing in front of?
 
Paul M. Kaplowitz said:
If your going to sell anything you have to answer some basic questions and tailor your product to those answers. Who are my buyers?, what is my price point or range? , how am I going to market my product?. I sell my bowls in the Charleston Farmers Market, Charleston, SC. This market runs from April to November, and then 3 Christmas markets in December. It is Saturday from 8-2pm. I go everyother Saturday. This market is rated 3rd best in the country. We get about 5,000 people in a tipical day. 90% are tourist. When I started selling in this market years ago, I tried art pieces, segmented turnings, hollow forms and kitchen stuff. It was apparent that my market was the open bowl. I sell about 20-30 bowls that are 18 to 24" in size per year. In 2018 I sold 281 bowls. I usually have to ship them and I charge for packing and shipping. There is no set answer about what size bowl to sell. It depends on your market.View attachment 28169
Click to expand...

It's not enough to make good work, or have a good potential market, but one has to be disciplined enough to figure it out. I admire your discipline and what you do, Paul-you put a lot of thought into finding what works. I spent a lot of years working at it, and never really felt I had it figured out. I learned a lot, was moderately successful. Haven't done shows in a number of years now, all my galleries are gone and I haven't really changed with the times enough to sell much. Tool business and teaching is good, though. :)

Good BOWL turners I have known have consistently been some of the most successful woodturners, long term. Its not easy work, though.

John
 
In Hawaii, a bowl is not just a bowl. A Hawaiian Calabash is a family heirloom. I have seen some that have been in families for 6 generations. Even a plain big Koa salad bowl is something greatly appreciated. For $250 you couldn't even by half of the blank of one of my big salad bowls. We have had several threads on this, here and on the WOW. I have 2 precontact calabashes, made before 1778. They are truly priceless treasures, beyond a simple wooden bowl. Local families know the cultural importance of the Kou Calabash, I'm very fortunate to be a turner in Hawaii.
 
Paul M. Kaplowitz said:
It is a VB36. In the 26 years I've been turning I have used many different lathes and for what I do the VB36 is perfect. Beautiful piece of machinery.
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Scarce too.
 
If you want your kids to turn out well don't get them a smartphone, get them a dog. Teach them to care for the dog. The dog will do the rest.

I like that @Dan Hall

-----odie-----
 
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