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Are there some woods that just won't work sometimes?

Tom Albrecht

Tom Albrecht

Joined
Feb 8, 2014
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Location
Evanston, IL USA
I probably did not phrase that question right, because I have seen some beautiful Box Elder bowls. In this case, I got a few small Box Elder logs from a friend that are about 7" - 8" diameter. I do not know if they came from a live standing tree or one that was already down. The blanks I cut are damp, but not throwing liquid as they spin.

On this example I tried every tool in my arsenal, all freshly sharpened, including a 1/2" Sirt scraper, a 5/8" Ellsworth gouge on edge, and a D-way bottom cleaner gouge. All were done with the lightest touch possible at various speeds.
fuzzy bowl - 1.jpg
 
@Tom Albrecht
It looks like the wood may be a bit punky.

All the torn grain is where you are beginning to turn into the endgrain.
I the case of punky wood the fibers pull out and break off instead of cutting because in the punky wood the fibers are not tightly connected. And the punky wood will vibrate Moore broom the bumps made by the torn grain.
If you come off the bevel a little it gets worse.
Once you get the torn grain it makes the next cut over the torn surface a poor one since you may not be able to maintain the bevel contact.

Really light cuts help a lot!

The boxelder is a soft hardwood and coming off the bevel even on solid wood will
give some torn grain but rarely what is in the photo.

Scraping will often give especially poor results.

Sometimes wetting the surface with water will swell the fibers enough to make them tight
And you can get a clean cut. Applying really thin shellac or thinned lacquer will penetrate and sort of glue the fibers together and you can get a clean cut.

CA glue is sort of a last resort.

My process for punky wood is
Do I really want to turn it?
Try water
Try thin shellac
Do I really want to turn it
Do I care enough to use $30 worth if Polyal?

Al
 
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I have found that box elder in my hands needs to be dry (which dries very quickly) . I don't double turn.
When wet, it's like pulling out milk soaked shredded wheat in clumps!!!. When dry it still has has some ear out. Sand to 400. When totally dry (takes 3-5 days) ,I apply 3 coats of shellac sanding sealer. Use 2-3 coats of danish oil. May try to post a photo of ones just finished once there is daylight. (If I remember). Gretch
 
When you get tear out like that, a scraper will never help. No idea of what a gouge on it's edge means, is that a scraping cut? My go to on the type of cut needed is a 3/8" Thompson V bowl gouge with a Michelson grind. A light chip taken at about the 11 o'clock position brings out a really fine shearing cut curl. I read where others swear by a Hunter #2 Osprey with the bevel rubbing.
 
Tom Albrecht said:
Thanks Al. What do you mean by "coming off the bevel"?
Click to expand...

It means that the bevel isn't in close contact with the wood. I was turning a dry box elder bowl the other day and what Al says is the absolute truth and the wood was not punky. I got beautiful results by shear cutting and OK results by shear scraping. I tried a regular scraper and got terrible results.
 
Well, box elder tends to do that type of tear out than some other woods. For a finish cut on that, I would want as high of a shear angle I could get. Best tool for that is a fluteless gouge from Doug Thompson, and I have one video dedicated to that. I have another one on finish cuts on some punky maple which would help illustrate what goes on. I also found out, since I got my 600 and 1000 grit CBN wheels, that the finer edge from them and a high shear angle will make a cleaner cut than one from a 180 grit wheel, but are lousy for roughing. You may be able to get a finer edge by honing the bevel, but that never did much for me.

Now, bevel rubbing cuts... Part of the idea behind them is that they hold the fibers down while the edge cuts. This does work to some extent. A shear scrape is another way to cut, where you use a high shear angle, but the bevel is not rubbing. Some times one method works better, some times the other, and as near as I can tell, the reason why is: "because". I prefer a shear scrape for my finish cuts now. Wetting the fiber helps on dry woods, but my efforts with it on green woods didn't do much if anything.

Here is a link to that 'finish cuts' clip I did. I didn't have the 600 and 1000 grit wheels then, but I think I still have that piece of wood, so maybe that will be another video...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5mHMiCrElc


robo hippy
 
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I agree. box Elder can be a problem when dry, definitely when wet. If I can I use a gouge that has a more acute sharpening angle, or I use a Hunter tool that has a much more acute angle. Even with those sometimes I still have a slight bit of raised fibers. I wouldn't necessarily call it torn grain it's just grain that doesn't cut. I've had the same thing happen with some green walnut. Any tool I use won't cut it. When I have those problems I will often use a cabinet scraper with the lathe turned off and work just that area. Sometimes a shear scraper will work but most of the time if My Hunter tool doesn't cut it the shear scraper won't either.
I almost forgot. sometimes putting wax on the area before cutting will work if the wood is dry.
 
Tom Albrecht said:
Thanks Al. What do you mean by "coming off the bevel"?
Click to expand...

The photos are screen shots of video and not too good but hopefully they show the gouge in stop action.

I beginnthe cut at the rim with the flute pointing horizontal and tool level cutting at center
As I cut a little the flute is rotated up about 45 degrees from level. The cut is being made on the left side of the gouge. I make the cut in an arc that goes up above center as I go down the side wall and then returns to center to finish the cut at the center of the bowl. This presents a little bit of a shearing angle cut.

As soon as the gouge enters the bowl the bevel is in contact with the sidewall just behind the cut.
When the bevel is locked in the tool sort of feeds itself into the cut but I have to keep moving the handle to the left to maintain the bevel contact.
If I don't keep the handle moving left the bevel will come off the wood, or if I force the cut pushing with the forward hand I can lift the back of the bevel off the wood. With the bevel off the wood the cutting edge is sort of scraping across the surface rather than cutting with bevel support which will pull the fibers more than cut them.
Another way to come off the bevel is to let the tool cut below center slightly or by having the tool rest too low

IMG_3813.JPG IMG_3813.JPGIMG_3812.JPG
 
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I was in the local lumber yard and stopped by the scrap wood bin and picked up a 12x12x3 piece
of cedar lumber and then spotted a 4x4x12 piece of recycled plastic composite post material. I always
wanted to see if this composite material could be turned on a lathe. I spent several hours trying multiple
lathe tools including carbides and the experience was not very pleasant. This was some nasty recycled
plastic with small shards of metal mixed in with the plastic, this stuff knocked the edge off a sharp tool in
several minutes. I am now positive that the Egyptians did not build the pyramids with copper/bronze tools.
 
I roughed turned a bunch of Apple boxes today, and into the Kiln they went. Then I did a small Apple bowl. A quarter of it was really punky... Only way to cut it clean is with a really sharp gouge, very slow, thin cut... I like what @Hockenberry said, Do I really want to turn this? Haha, I asked myself that several times!!

IMG_7159.JPG t the Kiln they went. Then I did a small Apple bowl. A quarter of it was really punky... Only way to cut it clean is with a really sharp gouge, very slow, thin cut... I like what @Hockenberry said, Do I really want to turn this? Haha, I asked myself that several times!!
 
Emiliano Achaval said:
I roughed turned a bunch of Apple boxes today, and into the Kiln they went. Then I did a small Apple bowl. A quarter of it was really punky... Only way to cut it clean is with a really sharp gouge, very slow, thin cut... I like what @Hockenberry said, Do I really want to turn this? Haha, I asked myself that several times!!!
Click to expand...

Ah! ha! Looks like a keeper. You did want to turn that one.
Hope it finds a new home soon!
 
Tom I would think your wood was too far gone to give you that result.

I’ve turned a lot of Manitoba Maple, it is a Maple after all and a weed tree that is often in abundance for free, just the price I like 😉

I turn the stuff wet, hardly ever to finish, and get pretty good results, using a more acute modified grind on the original grind bowl gouge, however if the wood is too far gone no wood will turn cleanly anymore.

I find that here in Ontario when the Manitoba Maple gets the red color in the wood, there is usually rotting taken place, very seldom is there any in a healthy tree.

I had a Manitoba Maple growing on the bottom slope on my property, fair size and it broke the top half off in a late summer storm, I got the tree stump and all out the next fall and cut it up and turned a bunch of bowls and platters from it

I also picked a log up at the recycling lot that was blood red, I cut it up and took it along to the turners club, as it was the last meeting before Christmas, so everyone that wanted any could take all they cared for.

Still quite solid with some burl at spots that shoed up nice when turned.
Manitoba Maple.jpg
These were to big for my paper bags that I normally dry my bowls in, so packed them in newspaper.
Rough turned bowls.jpg
Some of the reddest color I ever found in Manitoba Maple, made for some happy turners that evening 🙂
Manitoba Maple red.jpg
This one was not turned from the above wood, but some other log that I got my hands on 🙂
Manitoba Maple bowl.jpg
 
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Leo, those are nice bowls. Attractive colors and grain. Got to love the red in the wood. Thanks for sharing and the good photos. Have another glass of whatever is in the glass. Grape juice? 😛
 
John Torchick said:
Leo, those are nice bowls. Attractive colors and grain. Got to love the red in the wood. Thanks for sharing and the good photos. Have another glass of whatever is in the glass. Grape juice? 😛
Click to expand...

Thanks John, yup old grape juice 😉.

The red color is nice when new, but I rather have no red in that wood, as after some time that red changes to a rather dull reddish brown, so one should inform customers that that nice red color is going to change to some rather not so nice brown color, that usually doesn’t go over so well 😵
 
Bill Boehme said:
Send me some of those trashy "weed trees". 😀

Those are some incredible pieces of box elder/Manitoba maple.
Click to expand...

Bill I thought that these weed trees grew everywhere, not in Texas ??, you are lucky IMO, unless you like to clean up this stuff every time you have a good storm come through.

There are much better trees around than these, also that nice Red color is only so for a relative short time, where turners feel that they have to use paint to try make believe the red color stays nice, just not so.
 
olaf Vogel said:
Hmm...my neighbour has a few sickly looking Manitoba Maples....wonder if she needs help cutting them down.
🙂
Click to expand...

Olaf don’t be too quick, to much work for what you’ll get in all cases but for the exception, you’d be better off to go to the wood dump and check what is there, cut down already and easy to inspect, this here is what you will find most often, rot with just a minor amount of red coloration, like you can see where the brown color is torn by the sharp chain of the saw, it will be worse when turning that, DAMHIKT 😉

Acer Negundo.jpg
 
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